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	Deposition of Monsignor Anthony Herdegen, June 6, 2008 City of Angels July 20, 2009 http://cityofangels11.blogspot.com/2009/07/deposition-of-monsignor-anthony.html Herdegen depo clean Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF CALIFORNIA 2 COUNTY OF ALAMEDA 3 Coordinated Proceeding JUDICIAL COUNCIL 4 COORDINATED PROCEEDING NO. 4359 5 Special Title (Rule 1550(b)) 6 7 GEORGE SANTILLAN, individually, 8 and HOWARD SANTILLAN, individually, 9 Plaintiffs, Fresno Superior Court 10 vs. No. 03CE CG 04480 DSB 11 JOHN DOE 1, 12 Defendant. 13 14 Videotape Deposition of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN 15 Thursday, June 8th, 2006 16 10:05 a.m. 17 at 18 GIMBEL, REILLY, GUERIN & BROWN 19 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, Suite 2400 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 20 21 Reported by Julie K. Lyle, RPR/RMR/CRR 22 23 24 25 2 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Videotape deposition of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY 2 HERDEGEN, a witness in the above-entitled action, 3 taken at the instance of the Plaintiffs, pursuant 4 to the California Rules of Civil Procedure, 5 pursuant to Notice, before Julie K. Lyle, RPR/RMR, 6 Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public, 7 State of Wisconsin, at GIMBEL, REILLY, GUERIN & 8 BROWN, 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, Suite 2400, 9 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202, on the 8th day of 10 June, 2006, commencing at 10:05 a.m. and concluding 11 at 1:53 p.m. 12 A P P E A R A N C E S: 13 KIESEL, BOUCHER & LARSON, LLP, by Mr. Anthony M. De Marco 14 8648 Wilshire Boulevard Beverly Hills, California 90211 15 Appeared on behalf of Plaintiffs. 16 STAMMER, McKNIGHT, BARNUM & BAILEY, LLP, by Mr. Carey H. Johnson 17 2540 Shaw Lane, Suite 110 P.O. Box 9789 18 Fresno, California 93794 Appeared on behalf of the Defendant, The 19 Roman Catholic Bishop of Fresno, a corporation sole. 20 GIMBEL, REILLY, GUERIN & BROWN, by 21 Mr. Patrick J. Knight 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, Suite 2400 22 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 Appeared on behalf of the witness. 23 24 25 3 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 E X A M I N A T I O N 2 BY MR. De MARCO: 5 3 BY MR. JOHNSON: 149 4 5 E X H I B I T S 6 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE IDENTIFIED 7 (There were no exhibits marked.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: My name is Steve 3 Peters, videographer associated with Ryker & Lyle 4 Legal Video Service, Incorporated, Milwaukee, 5 Wisconsin. 6 This is the beginning of the 7 videotape deposition of Monsignor Anthony Herdegen 8 on June 8, 2006. The time is 10:05 a.m. 9 This is the case concerning George 10 Santillan, et al., plaintiffs, versus John Doe 1, 11 defendant, Case No. 03 CE CG 04480 DSB, pending in 12 the Superior Court of Alameda County, California. 13 Will counsel now please state their 14 appearances. For the plaintiffs. 15 MR. De MARCO: Anthony De Marco for the 16 plaintiffs. 17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: And the defendants. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Carey Johnson of the Fresno 19 firm of Stammer, McKnight, Barnum & Bailey, 20 appearing on behalf of the Bishop of Fresno. 21 MR. KNIGHT: And on behalf of the 22 witness, Monsignor Anthony Herdegen, Patrick 23 Knight. 24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The court reporter 25 will now swear in the witness. 5 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, called as a 2 witness herein, having been first duly sworn on 3 oath, was examined and testified as follows: 4 THE WITNESS: I do. As I can remember 5 stuff. You know, old now. I'll do the best I can, 6 though. 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. De MARCO: 9 Q Thank you, Monsignor. 10 Monsignor, can I get you to just 11 state your name again and spell it for the record. 12 A Anthony G. Herdegen. All Es like in cemetery, 13 H-E-R-D-E-G-E-N. 14 Q Okay. Monsignor, other than the time we were here 15 in September -- 16 A Yeah. 17 Q -- have you ever had your deposition taken before? 18 A Many, many years ago. 19 Q About how long ago? 20 A Oh, I have no idea. It must have been in the -- I 21 don't really honestly know. Must have been before 22 I had the stroke. 23 Q Do you remember what the deposition -- why it was 24 being taken? 25 A Oh, they -- they asked me to tell me what I knew -- 6 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 what I did with some of them boys, you know. 2 Q Really? And that was a number of years ago? 3 A Oh, yeah. 4 Q Would you say more than ten years ago, more than -- 5 A For the deposition, you mean? 6 Q The -- the -- 7 A For the deposition, you mean? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Oh, maybe eight, nine, I think. That one, yeah, I 10 would say about eight or nine. I'm not sure. I'm 11 not sure. 12 Q Okay. Were you living in Milwaukee already when -- 13 when this deposition was taken? 14 A Yes. Oh, yeah. 15 Q Okay. Monsignor, I'm sure your counsel has let you 16 know about some of the rules of a deposition. I 17 just thought I'd go over some of the really basic 18 ones before we really get started. 19 A All I know is I'm going to be honest and truthful 20 as I am before God. 21 Q Absolutely. 22 A And if I don't know it, I'll let you know I don't 23 remember, I don't know. 24 Q Okay. I don't want to make this at all an 25 endurance contest for you today. 7 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A I hope not. It's hard on me. 2 Q So if you need a break for whatever reason, you 3 know, we absolutely want to accommodate. The only 4 thing that I would ask is that we don't take a 5 break while a question is pending. 6 A Pending. 7 Q In other words, if I've asked a question, I'd like 8 to have an answer before we take a break. That's 9 the only thing I ask. 10 If anything I ask you here today is 11 in any way confusing to you, you don't quite 12 understand what I'm asking, let me know. I'll 13 either repeat it, I'll ask it a different way, 14 however -- however so that you can understand. 15 Okay? 16 A You're talking to an old man, you know. 17 Q So we'll all do our best, I hope. 18 It's important, because what we're 19 saying here is being taken down by the court 20 reporter, that everything that is said today be in 21 articulate words. So if -- if an answer to a 22 question might -- is yes, perhaps, a nod of the 23 head won't do. You have to say yes. 24 A So she gets it. 25 Q Right. Or if -- if -- instead of saying uhm-uhm, 8 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 you'd give the articulate word "yes." And that's 2 just a for instance. 3 I understand we're talking about 4 things quite a while back. 5 A Oh, yeah. 6 Q Okay. So it's understandable you may not remember 7 a precise date -- 8 A Oh, no. 9 Q -- or a precise time. That's understandable. But 10 what I -- what I am entitled to in an answer is 11 your best estimate -- 12 A Okay. 13 Q -- your best recollection. 14 I'm not looking for pure speculation 15 on things. If you have absolutely no memory of 16 something and no basis for believing an answer to 17 be a particular answer, that would be a guess, and 18 I don't want that. But if you do have some 19 recollection upon which to base an answer, then I'm 20 entitled to that. Okay? 21 A (Nods head.) 22 Q I don't know how long we'll be here today. I hope 23 not too long. 24 A Me -- me too. 25 Q And again, if we need to take breaks, and I will 9 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 presume that we will need to take breaks -- 2 A It's going to be that long? 3 Q We might. We might. And I don't -- I don't want 4 to belabor it, but it's -- it's fairly important 5 what we're here for today. 6 Monsignor, if I could ask a few 7 questions to begin with about your -- your 8 background before coming -- going to St. John's in 9 Wasco, if I could. 10 You -- you attended seminary at the 11 Josephinum? 12 A Josephinum. 13 Q Josephinum, thank you. 14 And you were ordained a priest in 15 what year? 16 A 1946, March 10th. 17 Q Okay. And you were ordained shortly after you 18 graduated? 19 A Well, that's the -- 20 Q Okay. 21 A -- that's the ordination date. 22 Q Okay. And you immediately were assigned to the 23 Fresno Diocese? 24 A It was called Monterey-Fresno. 25 Q I'm sorry? 10 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A It was called Monterey-Fresno. 2 Q Absolutely. 3 At some point in time you were 4 assigned to Ryan Seminary. This was, again, before 5 you went to Wasco, correct? 6 A Yes, that's right. 7 Q How long were you assigned at the -- at Ryan 8 Seminary? 9 A Oh, gosh. I would say maybe three to four years, 10 till -- till the Jesuits came -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- and took over the teachings and everything. 13 Q Okay. 14 A See, we turned it over to them. 15 Q During those three to four years that you were at 16 Ryan, what were your functions there? 17 A I was teaching, I was disciplinarian, and I was 18 their spiritual rector, things like that. 19 Q Okay. Okay. You worked there full-time then 20 during the time period you were assigned there? 21 A Oh, yeah. 22 Q Probably and then some, I take it? 23 A 24 hours. 24 Q Yeah. Is there any particular reason you're aware 25 of why you left that assignment or why you 11 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 were assigned -- 2 A Sure. 3 Q Why is that? 4 A Jesuits took over, and I went to parish work. 5 Q Okay. So the Jesuits took over the very next 6 semester or year after you left? 7 A The next -- well, in the spring, fall -- then the 8 fall they took over for -- 9 Q Okay. 10 A Fall of -- I don't know if it was '53 or '52. 11 Q Uh-huh. 12 A I can't remember right now. 13 Q Okay. Was there any kind of rowing program or 14 activity that was engaged in by the students there? 15 A Rowing? 16 Q Rowing, like boat rowing. 17 A No. 18 Q Any sort of lake where the students would go for 19 recreation regularly? 20 A No. There was a high school next door which 21 belonged to the diocese. 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A And they would go over -- they would go over there 24 for classes. 25 Q Okay. 12 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Everything else taken care of over there. 2 Q Do you remember ever being in any kind of -- 3 engaging with any of the students there at Ryan in 4 any kind of recreational activities involving 5 rowing boats? 6 A Rowing boats? 7 Q Huh-uh. 8 A We would have no boat over there. 9 Q Okay. So you don't remember anything like that, 10 then? 11 A What do you mean, rowing boats, though? 12 Q I'm thinking of a boat with, you know, oars. 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Any time you might have gone with any students from 15 Ryan Seminary to have any sort of activity where 16 you'd be rowing a boat with any of them. 17 A I do remember the kids rowing a boat. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And I was sitting in a boat. And he took the oar 20 head like this and he slaps the water, and it -- 21 the oar come down and knocked out one of my teeth. 22 Q Knocked out one of your teeth? 23 A Uhm-uhm. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Broke some in there. 13 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. And when was that, do you recall? 2 A It has to be between '49 and '52, somewhere. 3 Q So somewhere early in your stay at the seminary 4 there? 5 A Yeah, somewhere during my stay. 6 Q Okay. Do you recall where this -- this accident 7 occurred? 8 A Bass Lake. 9 Q Bass Lake? 10 A (Nods head.) 11 Q Okay. So it was -- 12 A It was -- it belonged to our diocese -- 13 Q Uhm-uhm. 14 A -- with the camp, you know. So we had a chance to 15 take them up for a few days and bring them back 16 again. 17 Q Okay. 18 A The Bishop allowed us to do those things. 19 Q Okay. Who would go -- was that something that was 20 then annually? 21 A No, not from me. 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A It might have been when the Jesuits came. I don't 24 know that. 25 Q Before the Jesuits came, while you were at Ryan 14 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Seminary, was the trip to Bass Lake something that 2 was an annual sort of trip? 3 A No. No, not that I know of. Uhm-uhm. 4 Q Okay. Was it maybe a -- 5 A It was bad enough to do it once. 6 Q So you only recall -- recall it happening once? 7 A Yes, in my responsibility. 8 MR. KNIGHT: Monsignor, just to make it 9 easier on the reporter taking down the information, 10 can you try and wait until Mr. De Marco finishes 11 all the way? Because sometimes it's hard to take 12 two people at once. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 MR. KNIGHT: Let him finish his question, 15 then start it. 16 MR. De MARCO: And, Monsignor, I'll do my 17 best. And I apologize, I probably wasn't letting 18 you finish your answer before I launched into 19 another question. So I'll slow down also. 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q The trip that you recall taking to Bass Lake, do 22 you recall how many students or -- how many 23 seminary students went? 24 A I'm not sure. Maybe 12, 14. 25 Q Okay. 15 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A I'm not sure, though. 2 Q All right. Any other priests go? 3 A No. 4 Q Just yourself? 5 A (Nods head.) 6 Q Okay. Was this a one-day trip, do you recall, or 7 was it -- 8 A Maybe two or three. 9 Oh, did I talk too fast? 10 MR. De MARCO: That's okay. These aren't 11 hard-and-fast rules. They're things we'll try to 12 do. 13 MR. KNIGHT: Yeah. 14 MR. De MARCO: You know, we're going 15 to -- we make an effort. 16 THE WITNESS: Am I talking too fast? 17 MR. KNIGHT: No, no, no, you're talking 18 fine. I was just questioning, sometimes you 19 miss -- if you start in before Mr. De Marco 20 finishes, then you don't get the benefit of hearing 21 his full question and he doesn't get the benefit, 22 so all -- no, I'm -- you're not talking too fast. 23 You're doing fine. And just, you know, try and 24 avoid -- hold off until you think he's done. 25 16 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 BY MR. De MARCO: 2 Q Were there cabins there at Bass Lake that you -- 3 that you-all stayed at? 4 A I think they did have. I'm not really sure. I 5 don't remember. But there's one for -- we said 6 mass in and we had -- and they had the dinners in 7 there. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Yeah. 10 Q All right. Everyone slept together? 11 A I don't know that. 12 Q Okay. You don't remember where your -- your 13 sleeping quarters were for that trip? 14 A Mine were private. 15 Q Yours were private? 16 A I did not sleep with them. I never did when I 17 teach in the seminaries either. 18 Q Okay. All right. Were you aware of seminary 19 students being taken to Bass Lake in subsequent 20 years with your not going? 21 A We didn't have seminaries before that. 22 Q Okay. At the seminary, did the students and the -- 23 and the priests sleep in the same or live in the 24 same building? 25 A Building, yes. 17 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. On different floors, different rooms? 2 A Some live upstairs. And I had a special room down 3 below. 4 Q Okay. Any of your fellow teachers from that time 5 period still alive, do you think? 6 A Father -- father -- he's dead, I'm sure. He's 7 been -- he went back to Ireland. Bishop re-called 8 him so -- 9 Q Which priest was this? I'm sorry. 10 A Andy Cariban [phonetic]. The Santillans had 11 nothing to do with that stuff. Never met him, 12 never saw him before. 13 Q Right. They were several years later. 14 Were there any sort of regular 15 sports activities at the seminary? 16 A No, just among the students themselves. They took 17 part in activities in the high school. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Much as they could, you know. 20 Q Baseball, football, stuff like that? 21 A Yeah. And with us too. 22 Q Okay. 23 A They would play among themselves a lot. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Of course, the only -- 18 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Was there an infirmary there at the seminary? 2 A Not really, no. 3 Q Some of the kids would sometimes have medical 4 problems of some nature -- 5 A Yeah. 6 Q -- I would take it? 7 What would be done in those 8 circumstances? 9 A For like a cold, you give them something, you know, 10 whatever they needed. 11 Q If they got -- if they got a sprained ankle or a 12 pulled muscle, what would be done? 13 A Yeah. You'd have to give them something to put on 14 it. 15 Q Okay. Who -- who -- who would help them with those 16 sorts of things? 17 A There was nobody to do it for them. My rector was 18 an old man. 19 Q Uh-huh. 20 A I could never expect him to do anything. 21 Q Okay. So did anyone help them if that was the 22 case? 23 A No, unless it was real major. 24 Q So if a kid had a sprained ankle, he'd have to take 25 care of himself? 19 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No, I would show him how to do it. 2 Q Okay. And if he had a pulled muscle, you'd also 3 help take care of him? 4 A If he felt, yes. 5 THE REPORTER: "If he"? I'm sorry, "if 6 he" what? 7 THE WITNESS: If he needed it, yes. 8 BY MR. De MARCO: 9 Q Okay. Do you recall those sort of situations ever 10 happening, where students would have physical 11 problems that you'd have to help them with? 12 A It's common. 13 Q Okay. Did you ever have to engage in any sort of 14 massages of kids who had pulled hamstrings or other 15 muscle problems? 16 A Once in a while, yes. 17 Q Okay. Where would that take place? 18 A We have a little room -- I could do it in there -- 19 where the medicine was. 20 Q Okay. Do you recall where that little room was? 21 Was it in the -- was it in the living quarters area 22 or -- 23 A It was in -- yeah, it was like a storage room, I'd 24 say. 25 Q Okay. So for those students that had some sort of 20 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 muscle problems requiring treatment, what would you 2 do, typically? 3 A What would I do? 4 Q Yeah. How would you help treat it? 5 A Well, we had alcohol, and we had other stuff for 6 rubbing. They get knots, you know, and -- 7 Q Uh-huh. So you'd give them massages with the 8 alcohol to get rid of the knots? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. This happened on more than one occasion? 11 A Only occasions that were needed with only students 12 who were active enough. So that's an uncommon 13 thing, you know. Who would do it for them? 14 Q Right. 15 A You can't send them to the doctor every time he 16 gets a little ache. 17 Q Okay. Do you remember any of the more active 18 students there -- 19 A No. 20 Q -- that might have had these sort of problems? 21 A No, I don't remember because they were quite about 22 the same. 23 Q How old do you think the kids were that -- that -- 24 would -- the seminary students there, were they 25 high school age? Were they -- 21 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Oh, they had to be high school age. 2 Q Okay. Were all of them high school age there at 3 Ryan? 4 A All except one. 5 Q And that one was older or younger, do you think? 6 A He was in eighth grade. 7 Q Okay. 8 A But he's -- he was like the rest of them, same 9 thing. 10 Q Okay. Now, when the students would have these sort 11 of problems requiring the -- the massages, was that 12 any secret that -- to your knowledge? I mean, was 13 this something that was common practice that you'd 14 treat? 15 I -- I'll rephrase. That was a 16 poorly worded question. 17 You mentioned that the treatment 18 would be done in a specific room? 19 A Where would you do it? 20 Q Okay. It wasn't -- it wouldn't be done in 21 someone's bedroom? 22 A Oh, no, there were no bedrooms. It was dormitory. 23 Everything's open. 24 Q A large dormitory with beds in the single large 25 room? 22 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A (Nods head.) 2 Q So the massage would take place in the dormitory -- 3 A Sometimes -- 4 Q -- or in a -- 5 A Sometimes the dormitory. Sometimes they're older. 6 Sometimes in a -- in a special room. Depended upon 7 who came to me. 8 Q Okay. Would there ever be any -- any other persons 9 present when these massages were taking place? 10 A Someone would be waiting for their turn, waiting 11 for medicine, waiting for pills. See, I was -- I'm 12 not trying to pretend that I'm practicing as a 13 doctor, not at all. I was like any father to them 14 who needed help, because they had nobody. 15 Q Yeah. They're living there away from their 16 parents? 17 A Yeah. 18 THE WITNESS: I wonder why he's saying 19 all this in the past? 20 MR. KNIGHT: Huh? 21 THE WITNESS: Why he's saying all that 22 stuff in the past? 23 MR. KNIGHT: Oh, I think Mr. De Marco is 24 going to want to ask you -- in the deposition, he's 25 going to want to ask you a lot of background things 23 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 that go on before that. 2 And keep in mind, all his questions 3 are with regard to what you recall of different 4 periods. In other words, he's not limited to just 5 the subject issue of the Santillans. He can ask 6 you about things, you know, going back to whatever 7 you may recall because it's -- so depositions are 8 very broad in that regard. So you can -- he'll ask 9 you about times around then, subsequent to then, 10 and he can ask you about your life span all the way 11 up till -- till now. It's not limited to specific 12 things. 13 So to the extent he asks you 14 anything that you have trouble recalling, just let 15 him know in that regard, Monsignor. Okay? 16 MR. De MARCO: And I'll -- and I'll try 17 not to belabor any particular subject too long, 18 Monsignor. There -- there are reasons that I'm 19 asking. I'm not trying to waste anyone's time. 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q When -- when the massages would take place, I know 22 you mentioned that sometimes other students would 23 be present. Were there ever any other priests 24 present? 25 A There were no priests around except the rector, and 24 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 he was always up in his room most of the time. 2 Q You were the only -- were you the only teacher 3 there -- 4 A Sure. 5 Q -- other than -- other than -- 6 A Because they went to the high school for those 7 other subjects. 8 Q Okay. So the rector was never around for any of 9 the massages? 10 A He was around. Sometimes he'd come through and 11 check on things, go around, yeah. But he wouldn't 12 do much for me. He was too old for that. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Let me ask a question, if I 14 may. Was that San Joaquin Memorial High School? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. But we were on the 16 grounds of it, you know. 17 MR. JOHNSON: That's what I thought. 18 THE WITNESS: He built the seminary over 19 there. 20 MR. JOHNSON: That's what I thought. 21 Okay. Thanks. 22 BY MR. De MARCO: 23 Q The -- just so that I'm understanding, would it be 24 correct or incorrect that there -- well, I don't 25 want to ask it that way. 25 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Were there ever times that you can 2 ever recall the rector being present, not 3 necessarily assisting, but at least being present 4 for when any of these massages took place? 5 A No, I don't recall any of that. 6 Q But certainly other students there were? 7 A Sometimes, yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Depends upon the circumstance when they came, you 10 know. 11 Q Okay. Did you ever at any time hear any complaint 12 from any of the students about the massages? 13 A Never. 14 Q Okay. It was something they were asking for? 15 A They needed. They would say, oh, my legs, my arm. 16 Well, they play. Kids play and they overdo it. 17 Q Uh-huh. And so did -- would you suggest to them 18 that this sort of massage might help them or -- 19 A No. But I said I'd help if I can. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I wasn't looking for that. 22 Q All right. Was this a sort of practice that you -- 23 you had even after Ryan Seminary, if students or 24 kids -- 25 A No, I didn't have students afterwards. 26 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Do you recall whether you ever met a Father Michael 2 or a Michael McGowan at Ryan Seminary? 3 A Michael McGowan, no. 4 Q Do you remember a Michael McGowan? 5 A No. 6 Q A Father McGowan? 7 A McAllen? 8 Q McGowan, M-C-G-O-W-A-N. 9 From my review of documents, I'll -- 10 I'll represent that it appears that there were 11 times that Father McGowan would substitute for you 12 at your request at St. John's in Wasco. I don't 13 know if that jogs your memory at all. 14 A Could be, but I don't -- and now you're in Wasco, 15 huh? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A Before you were in the seminary. 18 Q Do you remember Father McGowan at all? 19 A I think he's living yet, isn't he? Wasn't he a 20 holy ghost father. 21 Q I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I -- I have not seen 22 initials. 23 A He wasn't very generous to me at all of taking over 24 my place, so I'm wondering if he ever -- if he ever 25 did, really. 27 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q All right. Now, there -- after you left Ryan 2 Seminary, do you recall where you were assigned to 3 after that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Where was that? 6 A St. Patrick's. 7 Q And how long were you at St. Patrick's? 8 A Oh, maybe ten months. 9 Q And that was in Kerman? 10 A No, that was in Westville. 11 Q Okay. And do you remember what the nature of your 12 assignment was there? 13 A Does that mean work? 14 Q At St. Patrick's. 15 A Yeah. 16 Q What -- 17 A I was the assistant pastor. 18 Q Do you remember who your pastor was? 19 A Sure. 20 Q Who was that? 21 A Duerken, Monsignor Duerken. 22 Q Okay. 23 A He's dead. 24 Q Do you have any understanding as to why it was the 25 assignment only lasted ten months? 28 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Sure. 2 Q Why is that? 3 A He had -- he had a parish for me. 4 Q And where -- 5 A I was due to one, see, way before already. But 6 then he put me in teaching so he couldn't give me a 7 parish. 8 Q Uhm-uhm. And so what parish were you assigned to 9 then? 10 A I was assigned to a parish in -- right out of 11 Fresno called -- what's the little town west of 12 Fresno? 13 MR. JOHNSON: Kerman. 14 THE WITNESS: Kerman. 15 BY MR. De MARCO: 16 Q Okay. And how long were you in Kerman for? 17 A Maybe six months, eight months. 18 Now ask me why? 19 Q Why? 20 A He had another job for me in Atascadero State 21 Hospital, to be chaplain there. He picked me to 22 take that position for the State of California. 23 Q And I want to ask you a few questions about your 24 time there, but in regards to Kerman, were there 25 ever any problems that surfaced at Kerman? 29 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. 2 Q When -- I've seen documents to indicate that when 3 it was time for you -- 4 MR. JOHNSON: Let -- let me object to the 5 form of the question to the effect that "I have 6 seen documents." I think it -- I'd like to see the 7 documents if you are talking about that. And I 8 think it's an improper form of a question to imply 9 that there is some truth behind the question unless 10 we can both look at the documents. 11 So perhaps you could just ask the 12 question without talking about the fact that you've 13 seen this, that, or the other thing. I think it's 14 an argumentative question, and I would object on 15 that basis. 16 MR. KNIGHT: And I'll join. 17 BY MR. De MARCO: 18 Q Father, when it was time for -- when there was 19 discussion about you being assigned to a different 20 place other than Atascadero, when it was time for 21 to you leave Atascadero, do you recall ever having 22 any concern that you did not want to go back to 23 Kerman? 24 A Well, I have no reason for saying I wouldn't want 25 to go back, but I had enough. The Bishop made a 30 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 statement, Go, I need you, I go. It was my whole 2 life. 3 Q You don't recall ever expressing a preference that 4 you be assigned to someplace other than Kerman when 5 you leave Atascadero? 6 A When I leave Atascadero? 7 Q Uhm-uhm. 8 A Well, I didn't leave Atascadero to go to Kerman. 9 Is that what you're saying? 10 Q Yes. 11 A No, I left from Kerman and left to Atascadero. 12 Q All right. I'll ask the question later then so we 13 can get a little more chronology -- a little more 14 chronology. 15 At Atascadero, what were the general 16 nature of your duties there? 17 A I had mass for them, confessions for them, and took 18 care of their little problems. I was -- you know, 19 help them out, you know, to unburden themselves in 20 a lot of things and to meet their relatives when 21 they came and say a few things about them, how 22 they're coming along. 23 Q Did you have a predecessor in that position? 24 A No, because that was just built in '53, and I came 25 in '54. In respect, it was not completely finished 31 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 when I came. 2 Q If you could describe generally what the nature of 3 the folks were that you ministered to. What was 4 the nature of their reason for being there, to your 5 understanding? 6 A Criminally insane, psychopathic delinquents, sexual 7 psycho -- psychopaths. 8 Q Uhm-uhm. Okay. And you were -- you were on staff 9 in addition to being the chaplain there, correct? 10 A Oh, yes. 11 Q And on -- being on staff there, do you recall what 12 sort of duties were expected of you in that regard? 13 A I attended the meetings and I expressed things when 14 they asked me questions and sometimes interpreted 15 for them. 16 Q All right. All right. Now, when you mentioned 17 sexual psychopaths, there were -- there were 18 childhood sexual predators also there, correct? 19 A Anything. 20 Q That's a yes, though, right? 21 A Well, yes, because all types were there for the 22 State of California. 23 Q Right. Now, did you ever have any discussions with 24 the Bishop about your assignment there? 25 A Well, toward the end I said I've been here long 32 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 enough. 2 Q Uhm-uhm. 3 A I'm ready to get out, five years. 4 Q Did you ever have any discussions with the Bishop 5 about the nature of your work there? 6 A Well, no, except that any institution is hard. 7 Q Right. Did -- did you ever have any awareness of 8 the Bishop -- strike that. Let me rephrase the 9 question. 10 Did you ever talk with any of your 11 fellow priests about the nature of the inmates 12 there? 13 A Well, I say we have some of these and these and 14 these. That's about all. 15 Q Okay. Were there any priests, while you were at 16 Atascadero, that you maintained any -- any sort of 17 closer ties with? 18 A Well, my pastor was in -- was in -- in Atascadero. 19 Q Uhm-uhm. 20 A And I was in Santa Margarita, so I had his 21 confidence, you know. 22 Q Who was your pastor at that time? 23 A Stuhlman -- Stuhlman. Anthony Stuhlman. 24 Q Okay. 25 A He's dead. He was in his 80s already. 33 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Any other priests that you maintained any 2 sort of closer ties with while you were there? 3 A No, not necessarily, just friends that come once in 4 a while. 5 Q Do you remember a Monsignor Flood? 6 A Oh, sure, I know him. Yeah, I do. Why? 7 Q You maintained ties with him at that time? 8 A I wasn't close to him, but I did know him, and he 9 was friendly to me. 10 Q Okay. You two would actually go to -- drive 11 together for confessions? 12 A No. No. I beg your pardon? 13 Q The two of you wouldn't drive together to have your 14 confessions heard? 15 A No, I have nothing like that at all. Just when I'd 16 meet him, I knew him. At meetings, he was always 17 friendly and nice, but he wasn't -- wasn't a close 18 one. 19 Q Okay. Were you at all involved in the treatment of 20 any of the sexual predators at Atascadero? 21 A No. I would say no. Just being there as a priest, 22 being available to them. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And what I did like that, you know. 25 Q Okay. But you made -- did you attempt to -- 34 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. 2 Q I'm sorry? 3 A No, I didn't. 4 Q Didn't what? Whatever I'm going to ask? 5 A Right. 6 MR. KNIGHT: Well, that will speed things 7 along. 8 THE WITNESS: Am I going too fast? 9 MR. KNIGHT: No, but -- 10 MR. De MARCO: That's okay. 11 MR. KNIGHT: -- in this instance, maybe 12 we could let Mr. De Marco get his question out 13 because it would be kind of hard for the rest to 14 figure out what -- what you're saying no to. 15 THE WITNESS: Anything he wants to say, 16 there was nothing like that. 17 MR. KNIGHT: Okay. But, I mean, he'll go 18 question/answer and we'll get through it. So it's 19 just for clarity so when we read it back, we're all 20 clear then. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry. 22 BY MR. De MARCO: 23 Q Oh, that's okay. I -- I didn't take offense to 24 that at all. 25 Did you try to keep secret the 35 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 nature of the patients or the nature of the inmates 2 that you were chaplain for to the other priests of 3 the diocese? 4 A We didn't -- 5 MR. JOHNSON: Well, let me -- let me 6 object to that as an unclear question. 7 MR. De MARCO: Okay. I'll -- I'll 8 rephrase it to make it a little more specific. 9 MR. KNIGHT: "Nature" is vague. 10 MR. De MARCO: Yeah, let me -- let me 11 make that a little more specific. 12 MR. JOHNSON: I mean, well, just to -- 13 just to be more clear, he's already indicated the 14 types of people, and that would -- would be 15 something everybody would know. Now, that would 16 include the nature of them, if they're there as a 17 sexual predator, for example. And that's what I -- 18 in other words -- 19 MR. De MARCO: That's why I asked the 20 question "nature" because I thought we got that out 21 there, but I wanted to ask whether he was -- my 22 question was a little more specific in terms of his 23 communication to others about that. 24 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Well, I guess I -- I 25 think what you're trying to get into, I would 36 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 guess, is whether, if he was told something in 2 confidence, he told that to somebody else. Is 3 that what -- 4 MR. De MARCO: No, that's not at all what 5 I'm looking to ask. 6 MR. JOHNSON: That's not it? Well -- 7 MR. De MARCO: That's not at all what I'm 8 looking to ask. And I'll clarify. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 10 MR. De MARCO: I'm not looking to get 11 into the sacrament of confession here at all. 12 BY MR. De MARCO: 13 Q I mean, for clarity's sake, your understanding, 14 Father -- I take it you did hear confessions of the 15 inmates there? 16 A Sure. 17 Q Okay. 18 A We had a wall and -- and screen there. 19 Q And generally speaking, what's the nature of a 20 confession? I mean, what is it? I don't want to 21 hear a specific confession or the contents of it, 22 but what would be a confession? 23 A Telling your sins and asking God's pardon, mercy 24 because you're sorry for them. 25 Q Okay. And that's under -- there's a -- a seal of 37 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 secrecy on that -- 2 A There is, yeah. 3 Q -- you're not allowed to tell anyone? 4 Okay. So for any of the questions 5 I'm going to be asking you here about Atascadero or 6 anything else, I'm not asking for you to violate 7 the seal of the confessional in answering a 8 question, okay? 9 A You're going back a long way. 10 Q Understood. With that said, I'll go back. 11 Did you ever attempt to make secret 12 from any of the other priests of the diocese of 13 Monterey-Fresno the fact that some of the patients 14 there or many of the patients at Atascadero were 15 childhood sexual abusers? 16 MR. JOHNSON: I hate to be too 17 objectionable, but I think it's a compound 18 question, whether some or any -- or many I think it 19 is. So I think it's a compound question. 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q There were many childhood sexual molesters there at 22 Atascadero? 23 A There was everything there, yes. 24 Q But there were many, correct? 25 A I couldn't say because I wouldn't know who's who 38 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 out of that. 2 Q You -- 3 A I didn't know all their cases. Except when I come 4 to a meeting with -- with doctors, then I'd know 5 about some case, but not everything. 6 Q Uhm-uhm. 7 A Because they didn't say in every case. And even if 8 they did, probably some told me things in 9 confession which I cannot say anything about. 10 Q Right. But in these staff meetings that you'd 11 have, there would be some discussion about the 12 particular inmates? 13 A Well, there has to be because the doctors have to 14 know what to do. 15 Q Right. And you'd be privy to those discussions? 16 A I would be to it. But scarcely did I affect them. 17 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, 18 say -- 19 THE WITNESS: Scarcely did I put -- 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q During -- during the time that you were at 22 Atascadero, if you had to estimate how many inmates 23 there were, what would you -- what would you 24 estimate? 25 A The time I was there? 39 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Yeah. 2 A Maybe a thousand. 3 Q Okay. So if you had to estimate from your own 4 understandings, how many of those were childhood 5 sexual molesters? 6 A I would not know. 7 Q More than one? 8 A Well, that's true. 9 Q More than ten? 10 A I still don't know. I suppose. 11 Q Okay. Do you think it could be as much as at least 12 10 percent of the prison population there? 13 A I wouldn't know that because I didn't have the 14 records. 15 Q Okay. Did you have any conversations at all with 16 anyone with the Monterey Diocese, prior to your 17 assignment to Atascadero, about the assignment 18 there? 19 A Did I what? 20 Q Did you talk with anyone with the Monterey-Fresno 21 Diocese, before you went to Atascadero, about that 22 assignment? 23 A No. 24 Q You just got the request and you went and flew by 25 the seat of your pants from there? 40 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A (Nods head.) 2 Q You got no briefing before you went there? 3 A No, I didn't. Just assigned, that's it. He needed 4 a priest, and that's it. We never asked questions 5 in those days. We did what we were told. 6 Q Okay. 7 A It's not like nowadays. 8 Q Okay. Okay. During your assignment there, you 9 were made a monsignor? 10 A Yes, I was. 11 Q Did you have any understanding as to why you were 12 being made a monsignor at that time? 13 A Maybe because -- well, I don't know. It was the 14 Bishop that does. It's up to him. 15 Q Was it your understanding that the assignment at 16 Atascadero was understood to be a fairly difficult 17 assignment? 18 A Certainly would, wouldn't it? 19 Q In comparison even to many of the other assignments 20 possible in the diocese? 21 A Yes. It's hard work. 22 Q And why? 23 A Working among people like that. 24 Q Like what? 25 A Criminally insane, sexual psychopaths, psychopath 41 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 delinquents. You have to be yourself, you know 2 what I mean? You have to be honest with them and 3 help. So it's -- it's pressure on you, too. 4 Q Okay. So the fact that you were made monsignor you 5 think was related to the difficult nature of this 6 assignment? 7 A I think so. I think it, you know, showing some, 8 what shall I say, appreciation of what I'm doing. 9 Q Okay. And the Bishop would have had to recommend 10 you to be a monsignor -- 11 A Oh, yeah. 12 Q -- correct? Okay. 13 A He has to do that. 14 Q Okay. 15 A For all monsignors, yeah. 16 Q Okay. And now after Atascadero, you were assigned 17 to St. John's in Wasco? 18 A Yes, that's right. 19 Q Immediately after Atascadero? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. Now, do you recall, before leaving 22 Atascadero, expressing the preference to the Bishop 23 that you not be assigned to the parish in Kerman? 24 A I left Kerman. 25 Q I understand that. This is -- you're already at 42 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Atascadero. You're ready to leave Atascadero. 2 A He wouldn't send me back. 3 Q Why not? 4 A Ordinarily we don't send back to the parish we 5 left. 6 Q Why? 7 A Ordinarily not. 8 Q Why? 9 A Well, I don't know. It's a policy or something. 10 Do you know about the policy? I 11 don't. 12 But ordinarily they don't do that. 13 Once in a while it can happen, sure. 14 Q Uh-huh. 15 A But I didn't want to go back to Kerman. I just was 16 glad to get out. 17 Q So you didn't want to go back just because it was 18 normal policy not to go back to a parish you'd 19 already been at? 20 A It wasn't mentioned to me. 21 Q I'm sorry? 22 A It was not mentioned to me. Just said I've got an 23 opening for you there. 24 Do you want a break? 25 THE REPORTER: No thanks. I'm fine. 43 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 THE WITNESS: I do soon. 2 MR. De MARCO: Father, if you need a 3 break, like I said -- 4 MR. KNIGHT: No. 5 MR. De MARCO: -- I'm not trying to make 6 this an endurance contest. We can take a break 7 right now if you'd like. I have no problem with 8 that. If you'd like to -- 9 MR. KNIGHT: How are you doing, 10 Monsignor? Do you want to take a break now, or 11 do -- do you want to wait a few minutes? Or what 12 do you want to do? 13 MR. De MARCO: I mean, I'll -- I'll say 14 let's take a break if that's going to help things. 15 I mean, I -- I'm happy to keep going. But I -- 16 again, I don't want to make this an endurance 17 contest, Monsignor, at all. 18 THE WITNESS: I suppose I should. 19 MR. KNIGHT: Sure. 20 MR. De MARCO: Okay. Let's take a break. 21 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are going off the 22 record at 10:45 a.m. 23 (A recess was taken.) 24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the 25 record at 10:55 a.m. 44 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 BY MR. De MARCO: 2 Q Monsignor, I had one backtracking kind of question 3 to ask you about your time at Ryan, at the Ryan 4 Seminary. 5 Did any of the -- the kids that -- 6 that you taught or gave massages to there for 7 injury ever go on to become priests? 8 A Yes, several -- several of them did, yeah. 9 Q Okay. In the Monterey Diocese, Fresno-Monterey 10 Diocese? 11 A Well, one is in Nevada. 12 Q Uh-huh. 13 A And the other one died just recently. And the 14 other one is no longer a priest; he got married. 15 That's about it. The other ones, I don't even 16 remember who the other ones are. 17 Q Who's -- who's the one that is no longer a priest 18 that you're thinking of that got married? 19 A He's in Tehechapi. 20 Q He's in Tehechapi? 21 A As far as I know. That's why I haven't heard from 22 him for years and years. I don't know, that's the 23 last I heard of it. 24 Q Do you remember his name? 25 A His name was James Richardson. 45 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q James Richardson? 2 THE WITNESS: Am I talking too -- too 3 quietly for you? 4 THE REPORTER: If you could speak up just 5 a little. 6 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me back there? 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 8 THE WITNESS: Not so well? 9 MR. JOHNSON: But one of the problems is 10 that we have a very loud air-conditioning fan here 11 and so that -- yeah, if you could talk a little bit 12 louder, it would be good. 13 BY MR. De MARCO: 14 Q Do you know if James Richardson at any time became 15 a priest in the Fresno Diocese, or Fresno-Monterey 16 Diocese? 17 A I think he did. 18 Q Okay. And how about these other two that you 19 mentioned, the one that went on to Nevada? Was he 20 ever a priest of the Fresno-Monterey Diocese? 21 A Yes. Yes. Well, I didn't have any -- oh, I'm 22 thinking of the one that died. 23 Q Okay. 24 A That was -- was -- I can't think of his name now. 25 Do you remember his name, the one 46 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 who just died recently? You wouldn't know. 2 Q Okay. 3 A The other one, no. 4 Q Okay. Let me -- let me just backtrack slightly on 5 that question, then. 6 Any of those seminarians that were 7 around that, you know, maybe the massages were 8 given to or maybe you've been around when they were 9 given, some of them did become priests of the 10 Monterey-Fresno Diocese, would that be a correct 11 statement? 12 A Yes, maybe one or two, I think. I'm not sure. 13 Q But certainly at least one or two? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Okay. And they would have become priests -- if 16 they were in Ryan at that time, when do you 17 think -- what time period do you think they would 18 have become priests? 19 A Oh, in the '60s probably. 20 Q Early '60s, mid, late? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Which -- which one do you think? 23 A See, I was there in the '40s. 24 Q You were at Ryan in the late '40s? 25 A Yeah. 47 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q And so that would have been high school. Then they 2 would have had to go through university level? 3 A Oh, yeah. 4 Q And then some sort of graduate level? 5 A (Nods head.) 6 Q And then they'd get ordained? So maybe -- 7 A 4, 8, 12, yeah. 8 THE REPORTER: Say that again. 9 THE WITNESS: 4, 8, 12. 10 MR. KNIGHT: 4, 8, 12. 11 THE REPORTER: 4A? 12 MR. KNIGHT: 4, 8, 12. 13 THE WITNESS: 4, 8, 12 years after. 14 THE REPORTER: Okay. 15 MR. KNIGHT: 4 years high school, 4 years 16 university. 17 THE WITNESS: Wait. Theological studies. 18 MR. KNIGHT: Are you saying 12 years, at 19 that point ordination? Is that -- 20 THE WITNESS: Theological studies, yeah. 21 MR. KNIGHT: Theological studies. 22 BY MR. De MARCO: 23 Q So a total of 12 years, including four years of 24 high school, for studying to become a priest at 25 that time? 48 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A That's what it would be. 2 Q So it would have been about -- it would have been 3 approximately after they would have graduated, 4 about eight years' worth of study, in your 5 understanding, before they likely would have been 6 priests? 7 A After they left? 8 Q Yeah. 9 A No. Let me see now. They did -- because they had 10 to finish high school. I didn't finish with all of 11 them. 12 Q Okay. So maybe -- 13 A Because I was gone. Jesuits took over everything. 14 Q Okay. 15 A So I don't know what happened then. 16 Q All right. But pretty safe to say if it took 12 17 years total worth of schooling and you encountered 18 them during their high school years generally, that 19 they would have been priests -- and you were 20 encountering them in the late '40s, they would have 21 become priests what, maybe in the late '50s, early 22 '60s? 23 A Early '60s, yeah. 24 Q Okay. Now, when you got assigned to St. John's in 25 Wasco, there was a -- I guess when you got assigned 49 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 there, there -- initially there was an older 2 rectory building? 3 A Real old. 4 Q Okay. And within a few years, that building was 5 replaced? 6 A Oh, yeah. We built a new church and rectory. 7 Q Okay. Now, in the old rectory, when you -- when 8 you got there, were there any other priests 9 assigned with you? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. Was there room for any other priests there? 12 A Hardly. 13 Q Okay. Did you have any -- any employees or anyone 14 helping you work at the rectory when you got 15 assigned? Again, this is initially and at the old 16 rectory. 17 A No. 18 Q There was no parish secretary? 19 A No. 20 Q There was no one that helped with housekeeping? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. How about cooking of meals? 23 A I did it. 24 Q You cooked all your own meals? 25 A (Nods head.) 50 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. About how long after your arrival in -- say, 2 in Wasco, was it before the -- 3 A New place? 4 Q -- new rectory was built? 5 A '63. 6 Q Okay. So it would have been -- 7 A And I came in '59. 8 Q Okay. Now, in -- you do remember the Santillan 9 family, I take it? 10 A Oh, yeah. 11 Q Okay. Do you recall when it was that you first got 12 to know them or first really came in contact with 13 them? 14 A Really, I would say -- really, after -- in 15 about '63 when they moved to the new building 16 there. Then they was close there. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Otherwise, they didn't bother with me much, no. 19 Q Okay. Do you remember there being some kind of 20 accident with one of the -- the younger boys? 21 A I do remember that. That was in the old shack, the 22 old rectory at that time, when it happened. 23 Q Okay. What do you remember happened? 24 A A car hit him. 25 Q Uh-huh. 51 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A And I ran over to give consolation to the family 2 and do what I could for the boy. 3 Q Okay. And when you gave consolation to the family, 4 did you offer any -- any assistance or any -- 5 anything to them at all? 6 A Well, pray for them. 7 Q Uh-huh. 8 A And console them. 9 Q Did you offer to -- to help take care of any of the 10 other boys? 11 A No, not necessarily. No, they were capable of 12 doing that. 13 Q You didn't offer to do any kind of day baby-sitting 14 of any sort for the other boys? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. You remember George Santillan? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q Okay. And do you recall, I take it, meeting -- do 19 you recall meeting him early on after that 20 accident? 21 A No, I don't know when the accident occurred, 22 really. It was when I was in the old house. 23 Q Uh-huh. Do you recall meeting George when you were 24 still at the old house? 25 A No, just as a student with the rest of them. 52 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 That's all I can recall of that. 2 Q Okay. Was there ever a point in time where you 3 would start having George come over to the rectory? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. How early on was that, do you think? 6 A I wouldn't guess. I'm only guessing. 7 Q Well, if you've got a -- if there's something that 8 you're basing your answer on, then I'd like to hear 9 it. If it's nothing more than pure speculation, 10 then -- then no. But if this is out of your own -- 11 that's sort of -- so when I hear "guess," it's hard 12 for me to know what you're basing your answer on, 13 and maybe we can explore it. 14 What's -- what's your best estimate 15 as to when? 16 MR. JOHNSON: You know, maybe you could 17 pin it down to whether he came over to the old 18 rectory or the new rectory. 19 MR. De MARCO: Good idea. 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q Do you remember whether you ever had George come 22 over and visit you at the old rectory? 23 A No, I don't have -- I don't think he did. I really 24 don't think he did. 25 Q Okay. You think the first time you had him over at 53 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 the rectory was at the new rectory? 2 A Probably, yes. 3 Q So the earliest would have been around 1963? 4 A Or '4. Yeah, '64, somewhere. 5 Q Okay. Now, when he -- when -- when you would have 6 him come around the rectory, what would be done? 7 What would you guys do? 8 A We'd watch TV together. 9 Q Uh-huh. Where? 10 A In my room. 11 Q In your room? 12 A (Nods head.) 13 Q Okay. Would the door be open, closed? 14 A It would be open. 15 Q You'd keep the door open to your bedroom? 16 A The bedroom? Door to the bedroom? 17 Q I'm sorry? 18 A Was the bedroom door open? Yeah, that was open. 19 Why? 20 Q Okay. Where would you watch TV again? 21 A In my -- my study. 22 Q In your study, okay. 23 And was there a door to the study? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Where would that door -- door open to? 54 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A To the hall going into the rooms. 2 Q To the -- to the other -- which rooms? 3 A To the dining room and -- and the offices. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And the kitchen. 6 Q Okay. So you would have George in your -- your 7 study with you watching TV? 8 A (Nods head.) 9 Q Was this sort of a regular occurrence? 10 A Yeah, it happened pretty often. 11 Q Okay. Almost daily? 12 A Probably -- not quite that, no. 13 Q Several times a week, usually? 14 A Oh, yeah. 15 Q Maybe more? 16 A "Several" means? 17 Q Well, several can mean two or three. 18 A Yeah, that's right. 19 Q So you think it was maybe two or three times a 20 week? 21 A No, it could be four or five, too. 22 Q Okay. Would there be times of day where you'd 23 typically have George over, or night, whichever? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When, typically, would you have him over? 55 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Usually had breakfast with me after mass -- 2 Q Uh-huh. 3 A -- on a Sunday. 4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A And sometimes at night he would come. 6 Q And sometimes at night? 7 A (Nods head.) 8 Q Okay. How about during weekdays? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Would he -- would he be in the den with you on 11 weekdays? 12 A On occasion, sure. 13 Q Okay. So now you mentioned, I think, that he would 14 come over two, three, maybe even four or five times 15 a week? 16 A (Nods head.) 17 Q Okay. And typically he'd come over after mass on 18 Sundays? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Okay. And he would also often come around on 21 weekday evenings? 22 A (Nods head.) Yes. 23 Q And sometimes, or less frequently, come around 24 weekdays, during the daytime, or was that -- 25 A Not much in day, no. 56 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Not much during the day. But sometimes? 2 A Sometimes. 3 Q If you had to estimate, how often? 4 A I can't remember that. 5 Q Once a week? 6 MR. KNIGHT: How often daytime? 7 BY MR. De MARCO: 8 Q Yeah. How often daytime during weekdays? 9 A Maybe two, three times. I don't know. 10 Q Two, three times total? Two, three times a week? 11 Two, three times a month, year? 12 A Week. 13 Q Per week, okay. 14 And when he would come over and -- 15 and watch TV, how long would he -- would he be 16 there with you, typically? 17 A Maybe an hour, hour and a half. 18 Q Okay. Okay. And now there -- there was -- was 19 there anyone else -- and this is, again, at the new 20 rectory, right, not at the old rectory, correct? 21 A (Nods head.) 22 Q I just want to make sure we've got a yes or a no. 23 And I apologize -- 24 A We have a yes. 25 Q I knew what you were -- you were -- you were 57 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 nodding to. I apologize, but -- 2 Was there anyone else who -- who 3 worked with you at the rectory? 4 A I had a housekeeper. She came in during the day. 5 Q Okay. 6 A And prepared a meal for me at breakfast and 7 noontime. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Then she went home. She's dead. 10 Q What was her name? 11 A Barbara -- oh, I can't remember her last name. 12 Q Start with a Z? 13 A Zimmerman -- Zim. Something with Zim. 14 Q Zielman? 15 A Zielman. How did you know that? Better than I. 16 Boy, is he going up -- 17 MR. KNIGHT: He's good. 18 THE WITNESS: He is good. He'll probably 19 know how many teeth I have in my mouth. A whole 20 bunch of silver. 21 BY MR. De MARCO: 22 Q You probably got more than I do now. 23 Mrs. Zielman, did she start working 24 when the new rectory was built or before? 25 A When the rectory was built. 58 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. 2 A Couldn't have a rector in that shack. 3 Q Okay. And you hired her yourself? 4 A Well, she asked if she -- she liked that kind of 5 work. 6 Q Okay. So she came to you? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Okay. 9 A She was good. She -- 10 Q So she -- 11 A She was even there in her 90s yet, till the Bishop 12 said no, she's too old to be in a rectory. She was 13 faithful. 14 Q Okay. 15 A But -- 16 Q Okay. What -- what, generally speaking, were her 17 duties at the rectory while you were there? 18 A Well, she made breakfast and dinner -- lunch, 19 rather. She did the washing and cleaning of the 20 house and answering doorbells. Then she usually 21 went after -- after -- after lunch, she would go 22 home. 23 Q Around when -- when would that be, typically? 24 A Probably 1:00, 1:15. 25 Q So she'd get there about when each day? 59 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A She went to mass. She came before the mass, went 2 to her quarters, and then she came to mass, and 3 then she came back again. 4 Q So when would mass be? 5 A 8:00. 6 Q 8:00. So she'd come what, about 8:30, 8:40 or 7 something? 8 A No, she'd come -- come about quarter to 8:00. 9 Q Quarter to 8:00. And then she'd leave around 1:00, 10 1:30 or so? 11 A 1:15, 1:30, yeah. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Whenever she got finished with her work afterwards. 14 Q Okay. Now, other than cooking, did she have any 15 other duties there at the rectory? 16 A Washing, washing clothes. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Cleaning. 19 Q Okay. Where would she clean? 20 A The house. 21 Q Okay. Were there any restrictions at all -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- as to where she could clean? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. And she did all of your laundry? 60 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Oh, yeah. 2 Q Okay. Do you recall there ever being a time where 3 you told her not to go in specific areas of the 4 rectory? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Never told her your room was off limits? 7 A No. She was a private person, you know, respected 8 everybody. 9 Q Uh-huh. She was a private person that respected 10 everybody? 11 A It means she didn't stick her nose into anything. 12 She did her duty, lived a good life. 13 Q Okay. Did she ever come in on you and George 14 watching TV together? 15 A No. But she may have called for us, somebody at 16 the door, in case I didn't get there. 17 Q So there seemed to be signs that she was aware he 18 was there with you? 19 A Sometimes, yes. Because at the Sunday breakfasts, 20 he came, see, and she always prepared it all. 21 Q Anyone other than George ever come over for Sunday 22 breakfast? 23 A No. Not when George is around, no, not that I know 24 of. 25 Q How about -- how about when George wasn't around? 61 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Who would come? 2 Q Anyone else ever come for Sunday breakfast? 3 A Afterwards? 4 Q Yeah. 5 A Maybe his brother came later on. I don't know, 6 though. 7 Q Do you think his brother came later on, or no? 8 A I don't really know. 9 Q Okay. Do you remember Rod Craig? 10 A Rock. Yeah, Rod Craig. 11 Q Rod Craig, yeah. 12 A Rod. 13 Q Did he ever come over for breakfasts on Sundays? 14 A I don't think so. 15 Q Do you ever recall having any meals at the rectory 16 with him? 17 A No, I don't, honestly. 18 Q Okay. Okay. Was there ever a time -- I -- you 19 did, obviously, have a bedroom there at the 20 rectory? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Okay. Was there ever a time you had George in the 23 bedroom? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. More than one -- 62 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A I think so. I think so. 2 Q More than one occasion? 3 A Oh, I think so. 4 Q Okay. When you would have him in the bedroom with 5 you, would the door be closed? 6 A The door, no. 7 Q The door to the bedroom would remain open? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And when you would have him in the -- in the 10 room with you, the bedroom, what would be done? 11 What were you in there for? 12 A How should I say it? I probably -- probably 13 fondled him then, but I never had intercourse with 14 him or he with me. I never masturbated him. All 15 those accusations were made; they're lies. 16 Q But so that I'm clear then -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, I don't know -- 18 I don't know if he's finished answering the 19 question. 20 BY MR. De MARCO: 21 Q I apologize, then. I don't mean to interrupt. 22 A What was that? 23 Q I didn't mean to interrupt you, Monsignor. 24 A Oh. 25 MR. KNIGHT: That was lawyers talking 63 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 about the record. They can put objections in. 2 The -- there's the question to you, 3 Monsignor, if the -- have you completed your answer 4 to that. And if so, Mr. De Marco will move on and 5 ask the next question. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, I said something 7 because I thought Mr. De Marco was interrupting you 8 in the middle of your answer there. 9 MR. De MARCO: And I apologize if I was, 10 Monsignor; it was not my intent. 11 BY MR. De MARCO: 12 Q Did you -- did you want to add anything to your 13 answer? I'll -- I'll ask more questions, but if -- 14 A What was the answer? 15 MR. JOHNSON: We could have that answer 16 read back, and then if he needs to add something to 17 it, he can add it. 18 MR. De MARCO: That's fine. 19 MR. JOHNSON: She can read it back to 20 you. 21 MR. KNIGHT: Yeah. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, poor girl. How do you 23 do that? 24 (The requested question was read by the 25 reporter.) 64 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 BY MR. De MARCO: 2 Q Did you want to add anything? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. When you mentioned fondling, were you 5 referring to his genitals? 6 A No, just him. I didn't play with that. 7 Q Okay. You fondled him where? 8 A Probably held him, something like that. But I 9 didn't -- I didn't go into, and I did not 10 masturbate him or doing anything like that. 11 Q So you -- you fondled his shoulders? I'm not 12 understanding. I'm sorry. 13 A Just like that, you know, put around him 14 (indicating). 15 Q Gave him a hug? 16 A Yeah, hug. There was nothing the other way around. 17 If he did, he misinterpreted. 18 Q Okay. The times where you had George in your -- in 19 your bedroom, what times of day would that 20 typically be? 21 A Probably nighttime. 22 Q Probably in the nighttime? 23 A Probably. 24 Q Like when? What time of night? 25 A 7:00, 8:00. 8:00, 9:00. I don't know. 65 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q And how long would he be in the room with you for, 2 the bedroom? 3 A Half an hour to an hour or so. 4 Q Okay. Did it ever occur in the daytime? 5 A I can't remember any. 6 Q Okay. Now, to get into the rectory itself, I take 7 it there was a front door? 8 A (Nods head.) 9 Q Were there any back doors? 10 A Yes. There's a door that leads out to the church 11 and one into the alley. 12 Q Okay. To get in through the front door, was that, 13 during the daytime, typically left unlocked? 14 A No. 15 Q It was locked? 16 A (Nods head.) 17 Q Would there be some kind of buzzer that had to be 18 rung to get in? 19 A There was a doorbell there, too, yeah. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Two of them, in fact. 22 Q During the daytime, if someone wanted to get in, 23 who would typically answer the door? 24 A The housekeeper. 25 Q Okay. Mrs. Zielman? 66 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Ms. Zielman. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Unless I was out there. 4 Q Okay. But she oftentimes was the one opening the 5 door for people? 6 A Yeah. But she's closer, see. 7 Q So when the kids were coming in to the -- when 8 George was coming in to the rectory, rather, during 9 the daytime, Ms. Zielman would be the one opening 10 the door, typically? 11 A In the daytime, if she was available, yeah. 12 Q Okay. Did Ms. Zielman ever ask you why you had 13 George stay with you so much in the rectory? 14 A Never. 15 Q She never posed any kind of question about that? 16 A No. 17 Q Did she ever come in and talk with the two of you 18 when you were -- 19 A No. 20 Q When you were watching TV, she never came in and 21 chatted with you? 22 A No. 23 Q Okay. And when you were in the bedroom, she never 24 came around? 25 A No. 67 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 MR. JOHNSON: Belatedly, I'll make an 2 objection. I don't think it has been shown that 3 she was there while the two of them were in the 4 bedroom. 5 MR. De MARCO: I'll move on. 6 BY MR. De MARCO: 7 Q Over how long a period of time was it that you had 8 George come -- come at times to the rectory? 9 A Had him come? 10 Q In other words, was this something that occurred 11 just, you know, one month and one year? Did it 12 occur over a period of years? 13 A It occurred over a period of time. How much, I 14 don't know. 15 Q Okay. You don't remember if it was multiple years? 16 A Multiple years, I don't think so. Maybe two years, 17 three. I don't know. 18 Q Okay. Do you have any recollection as to -- to why 19 he stopped coming over to the rectory? 20 A I know he went down to Los Angeles. He lived down 21 there for a while, maybe a year or so. 22 Q Okay. 23 A And then he went -- then I know he must have 24 gotten -- yeah, that's right, because I remember he 25 lived down there with his uncles or something. 68 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Now, Monsignor, you mentioned that -- that 2 you may have fondled him but not masturbated him? 3 A That's true, I did not masturbate him. 4 Q Masturbating him would have been wrong, in your 5 estimation? 6 A Absolutely. 7 Q It would have been a sin? 8 A Right. 9 Q Okay. 10 MR. JOHNSON: And I believe that he 11 defined fondling as giving a hug to him. 12 MR. De MARCO: Counsel, that's fine. I 13 mean, I asked the question stating exactly what he 14 said. You know, when you get a chance to ask 15 questions, you can clarify all you want. I'd 16 appreciate not being interrupted constantly. 17 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I -- I feel that -- 18 that that was an unfair question -- 19 MR. De MARCO: That's fine how you feel. 20 MR. JOHNSON: -- that falsely represents 21 what -- what he has actually testified to. 22 MR. De MARCO: No, he testified -- 23 MR. JOHNSON: So when that happens, I 24 will have to speak up. 25 MR. De MARCO: He testified to fondling, 69 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 and then he described what he meant by that 2 already. I used the exact word he used. You can 3 go back and clarify when it's your opportunity. 4 I'd appreciate not being constantly interrupted. 5 MR. KNIGHT: That's the attorneys 6 arguing. That happens. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that does happen. 8 MR. KNIGHT: Yeah, it's what we do. 9 THE WITNESS: Is that what you do? 10 MR. KNIGHT: Well, amongst other things. 11 MR. De MARCO: Okay. 12 BY MR. De MARCO: 13 Q Monsignor, did you ever give George massages? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q Where would those massages take place? 16 A In my room there. 17 Q In the bedroom? 18 A No. 19 Q In -- 20 A In the dining room -- in the -- my regular room. 21 Q Okay. In the den area? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Okay. With the door open? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. And why would you give him massages? 70 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Well, he was always needing -- felt like he had 2 muscle stuff, you know, the kids like that. 3 Q Uh-huh. So he'd have muscle pain? 4 A Well, you know, kids get aches and stuff. That's 5 all I can say. 6 Q Okay. He was involved in athletics at the time? 7 A George was a good athlete. 8 Q Okay. So he was getting muscle aches related to 9 the athletic -- 10 A I presume that was some of it. 11 Q Is that what he would tell you, or no? 12 A Well, he'd say ache sometimes, yeah. 13 Q Okay. Was there a particular place in the den that 14 you'd do -- the massages would take place? 15 A No, just the floor. 16 Q Okay. And was there any -- did you use alcohol in 17 those massages? 18 A I think it was, yeah. 19 Q Okay. Not oil? 20 A Oil? What kind of oil would I use? 21 Q Don't know. 22 A I don't either. 23 Q You don't remember using oil on any of the 24 massages? 25 A I think it was alcohol. 71 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Okay. 2 A I'm not sure, though. 3 Q So the massages, that would take place in the den? 4 A (Nods head.) 5 Q Okay. And they'd be related to sport activities? 6 A I presume it was. 7 Q Okay. Do you remember what sports George was 8 involved in? 9 A I know he was in football for a while, and he was 10 in baseball. And I don't know what else. 11 Q Okay. Sounds like a year-round athlete at that 12 time? 13 A He was a pretty good athlete. 14 Q So the massages took place on a fairly regular 15 basis? 16 A Fairly regular. How often, I don't know. 17 Q But fairly regular? 18 A (Nods head.) 19 Q Yes? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How long would the massages last? 22 A I don't know, maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Something like that. I'm not sure. 25 Q Okay. And you'd do the massages after watching TV, 72 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 or would that be -- 2 A During it. During it. 3 Q While you were watching TV? Yes? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. All right. The massages would sometimes 6 take place during the day? 7 A Yeah. Uhm-uhm. 8 Q On weekdays? 9 A No, must be Sundays. 10 Q Only on Sundays? 11 A Probably, yeah. 12 Q Ms. Zielman work on -- on Sundays? 13 A Yes, only partially. 14 Q Okay. When you'd typically watch TV, would that 15 be -- on Sundays, would you typically watch TV 16 immediately after eating breakfast? 17 A Probably. But the -- I would watch -- excuse me. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Probably. 20 Q Okay. When -- and when you'd -- I take it when you 21 were rubbing alcohol and the massages, George would 22 have his shirt off at least? 23 A Oh, sure. 24 Q Okay. And would you ever massage his legs? 25 A Sure. 73 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. So he'd have to take his pants off? 2 A Pants, as such, yeah. 3 Q Okay. 4 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, the pants -- 5 THE WITNESS: As such. 6 MR. KNIGHT: As such. 7 BY MR. De MARCO: 8 Q Okay. 9 A But he disrobed, anyway. 10 Q He disrobed? 11 A (Nods head.) Not completely. 12 Q I'm sorry? 13 A Not completely. 14 Q What would he not take off? 15 A Maybe some kind of shorts around here. 16 Q Underwear? 17 A Well, the shorts, yeah. 18 Q Okay. All right. And he'd be laying flat on 19 the -- on the floor? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Okay. And you would kneel over him? 22 A Next to him. 23 Q Next to him. 24 Okay. And you'd use both hands, 25 just one hand? 74 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A It's a long time ago. I'd be using -- I would use 2 both hands because you're ambidextrous, use it the 3 same as the other one. 4 Q Okay. And -- 5 MR. KNIGHT: How are you doing, 6 Monsignor? 7 THE WITNESS: He's making it hard for me. 8 BY MR. De MARCO: 9 Q And I apologize. I'm not trying to make it any 10 more difficult than it has to be. 11 A You are. 12 Q I apologize for that if I am. 13 A Going into every detail. 14 Q Do you want to take a break? I mean, I -- I'm okay 15 taking breaks whenever we want to. I mean, there's 16 no question pending right now. 17 MR. KNIGHT: Do you want to break for a 18 minute? 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MR. KNIGHT: Can we take a break? 21 MR. De MARCO: That's fine. 22 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are going off the 23 record at 11:26 a.m. 24 (A recess was taken.) 25 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the 75 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 record at 11:36 a.m. 2 BY MR. De MARCO: 3 Q Monsignor, I guess we'll have a lunch break soon. 4 We'll just go for a few more minutes' worth of 5 questions and then take some time or however much 6 time we need for lunch. 7 Did you ever give any similar 8 massages to Howard Santillan? 9 A I don't remember that, no. 10 Q Okay. 11 A But he followed. He wanted to come over when 12 George was gone. 13 Q Okay. Do you remember allowing him to come over? 14 A He was there already so -- 15 Q Okay. So he would come over to the rectory also? 16 A Yeah, afterwards. 17 Q Okay. Would he come over with the same type of 18 frequency? 19 A Almost. I couldn't say for sure. 20 Q Okay. Would he come over also during the daytime? 21 A Very seldom. Daytime they were kind of busy with 22 school and everything. 23 Q Uh-huh. 24 A Unless it was a day off school or something like 25 that, you know. 76 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Or summer vacation? 2 A Or summer vacation, yeah. 3 Q During the summers would they be over more during 4 the weekdays? 5 A Well, when they didn't go away, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A But he didn't come -- they didn't come together. 8 George was through completely. 9 Q Okay. They wouldn't come over, the both of them, 10 at the same time? 11 A No, they didn't come around. 12 Q Was there ever a period of time where separately 13 George would come over and then Howard would come 14 over later? 15 A No. Once Howard -- once George quit, Howard wanted 16 to come. 17 Q Okay. Do you ever remember talking with -- with 18 their parents about them doing work around the -- 19 the parish? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Okay. Do you ever remember talking with Leatha 22 Santillan about why -- why the kids were going over 23 to the rectory? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. Do you ever recall paying them? 77 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Oh, yes, I gave them some money to buy this and 2 that. 3 Q Okay. 4 A They -- yeah. What was I going to say now? Keep 5 talking, it will maybe come back to me. 6 Q Okay. Did they ever do any work around the -- the 7 rectory? 8 A They could have, but I don't know of any. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Honestly, I can't think of any. 11 Q Do you remember being at the -- at the new rectory, 12 do you remember there being a statue out in front? 13 A Oh, yes. 14 Q Did they have any role, either of the Santillan 15 brothers, in erecting that? 16 A No, the father. 17 Q The father did? 18 A He built the pedestal, stone. 19 Q Uh-huh. 20 A Father was good. 21 Q What was his name, do you remember? 22 A Tilo. 23 Q Tilo? 24 A Tilo was good. 25 Q Okay. Do you remember talking with Tilo about 78 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 the -- the kids being over at the -- the rectory? 2 A No. No, I never did. 3 Q Okay. 4 A You know why they came? 5 Both the boys felt they were 6 neglected in their family. One, because, the one 7 that got hurt, he was taking a lot of the 8 attention. 9 Q Uh-huh. 10 A And the other one was his favorite. And these two 11 boys didn't fit in there, so they looked for it 12 from me. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And especially, Howard came later on because he -- 15 he felt out. George took over everything. So it 16 was their doing it. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Did I talk loud enough? 19 Q Did -- I'm not sure if I asked already, but did you 20 ever give Howard any kind of massages? 21 A Not massage, no. But he'd go to bed with me and 22 stayed there sometimes, yeah. 23 Q He would watch TV with you? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Did you ever have him in your room, in your 79 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 bedroom? 2 A Oh, yeah. Uhm-uhm. 3 Q What would you do in the bedroom with him? 4 A Well, he would kind of hug me. 5 Q He would hug you? 6 A Kind of did, yeah. 7 Q You would hug him also? 8 A Both ways, yeah. 9 Q Nothing other -- no other physical contact other 10 than hugging? 11 A His body was next to me. 12 Q Okay. Was he ever disrobed in your room? 13 A Oh, yeah. 14 Q Okay. Why? 15 A He just took off his clothes and went in the bed. 16 Q In the bed? 17 A Uhm-uhm. 18 Q Did you ever join him in there? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q This happened more than once? 21 A I think so. 22 Q Quite a few times? 23 A Well, not real -- quite a few, but sometimes, yeah. 24 Q How often, would you say? 25 A I wouldn't be able to say. 80 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q This happened over a period of years? 2 A Maybe a year or two or something. I don't even 3 know that. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Because I left after a while, you know. 6 Q Right. Do you ever remember sun-bathing with him 7 out on the porch to your bedroom? 8 A I may have been out there, but he didn't do it, not 9 yet -- not Howard. 10 Q Howard never did that with you? 11 A Not that I know of. 12 Q Okay. Was there ever any touching when you were in 13 your bedroom with him and he had disrobed? 14 A There was probably, yeah. 15 Q What kind of touching? 16 A Touching the arms, legs. 17 Q You would touch his arms and legs? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Okay. Would you touch any other part of his body? 20 A I never touched organs, if that's what you mean. I 21 didn't touch him, no. 22 Q You didn't touch his organs? 23 A No. 24 Q But you did touch his legs and arms? 25 A Oh, yeah. 81 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Would you disrobe also? 2 A No, partially only. 3 Q What would you take off? What parts of your 4 clothing would you remove? 5 A I left my shorts on. 6 Q Okay. Okay. When Howard would come over, he -- 7 how long would he typically stay in the rectory? 8 A Maybe an hour, hour and a half. 9 Q Okay. And he came over with the same sort of 10 frequency as George had? 11 A Not quite. 12 Q A little less? 13 A A little less, I would say. 14 Q So instead of two to four or five times a week, 15 he'd come over what would you say? 16 A Three, four. 17 Q Three or four. And when he would come over, in a 18 particular day, would he come over more than one 19 time during the day? 20 A I don't think so. 21 Q Okay. 22 A I don't remember that. 23 Q Okay. Did you ever have Rod Craig into your 24 bedroom? 25 A No. 82 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Did you ever watch TV with him? 2 A Hardly, because if he came, he just sat in the 3 stairway. But we had nothing to do with Rod Craig. 4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A He was free from everything. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Rod -- Rod was a good boy. Why is Rod being 8 mentioned in that? Because they say these things? 9 They're lying. Rod was not capable of any of those 10 things that they're mentioning. Huh-uh. See, 11 they're trying to bring in Rod, which is not true. 12 Rod had nothing to do with this. He'd visit me as 13 his -- his pastor. 14 Q His parents had passed away? 15 A Both of them now, yeah. 16 Q Rod -- Father Craig -- or when he was -- he was a 17 student there -- 18 A Yeah, he was good -- 19 Q -- his parents had passed away already? 20 A The father did. But later on the mother, I don't 21 know -- I was gone already. 22 Q Did you -- did you help Rod get into the seminary 23 in any way? 24 A Well, I advised him a lot of things, you know. And 25 we went down to visit him in the seminary, his 83 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 father and I and mother. 2 Q Okay. 3 A No. But if anybody's putting in Rod, they're 4 lying. 5 Q Did you ever give Rod hugs? 6 A No, I don't think so. 7 Q You never hugged him? 8 A Not that I know of, no. Shake hands with -- you 9 know, clap him like that, "You're doing well." 10 THE REPORTER: "Clap him like that"? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, you know what I mean. 12 Just say, "You're doing fine, now keep it up." 13 BY MR. De MARCO: 14 Q Do you remember a Steven Frost? 15 A Yeah, Steven didn't come around. 16 Q Never around the -- the rectory? 17 A (Shakes head.) Never bothered me at all. 18 Q Okay. 19 A They're putting out all these names, gosh. They 20 really are working hard to get some -- these men 21 don't have anything to do with this stuff. 22 Q Do you remember a man named John Snaden? 23 A No, I don't remember that name. 24 Q Might have been a rabble-rouser at St. John's? 25 A Snaden can't be the name, though. 84 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Maybe he went to the seminary for a sort 2 time, didn't become a priest, helped with the choir 3 for a while. 4 A You got a wrong name there. 5 Q Saindon or Snaden? 6 A Oh, Saindon. Maybe Saindon. 7 Q Yes. 8 A I remember him, yeah. 9 Q What do you remember about him? 10 A He's oddball. 11 Q Uh-huh. He made a lot of complaints? 12 A Complaints all the time. 13 Q What did he complain about? 14 A Whatever I do or say. 15 Q Uhm-uhm. Did he have any children, do you know? 16 A I don't think so. 17 Q You don't remember him having a son? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Okay. Do you remember a family by the name of 20 Miller at that parish? 21 A Sure. There's a lot of Millers out there. 22 Q There were a lot of Millers -- a lot of different 23 Miller families? 24 A Uhm-uhm. 25 Q Do you remember a Mike Miller or a John Miller? 85 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A John Miller, I remember him. 2 Q What do you remember about him? 3 A He's an old farmer. 4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A They found him dead in the bathroom, and they 6 called me -- they called me to anoint him in the 7 middle of the night. 8 Q When was that? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q A long time ago? 11 A Oh, yeah. He had a brother named -- oh, I don't 12 know. There were two Miller brothers. One was 13 John and the other was Joe. 14 Q Okay. 15 A That's what -- I remember them. 16 Q Do you remember much about Joe Miller? 17 A Joe Miller? 18 Q Uh-huh. 19 A No. He was a big-shot. 20 Q Uh-huh. 21 A Had a good family and everything. 22 Q Okay. 23 A But he was good. 24 Q Did he have -- did they have any kids? 25 A Joe Miller? Old Joe Miller or young Joe Miller? 86 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Yeah. Good question. I take it that old Joe 2 Miller did have kids? 3 A Yeah. And Joe Miller had kids, too. 4 Q And the younger Joe Miller, how old -- when you 5 were there, was he -- how old do you think he was, 6 generally? 7 A I would say probably in his 40s. The young one? 8 Q Yeah. 9 A Probably in his 40s. 10 Q And he had kids at that time? 11 A Yeah, he had kids. 12 Q Did he have a boy? 13 A He did, yeah. 14 Q Do you remember -- 15 A Never had anything to do with that boy. Whoever 16 said that, they try to push more and more people to 17 get as many as they can. It's not true. I was not 18 like that. 19 Q Do you ever remember telling Tilo or Leatha, either 20 one of them, about anyone coming to your -- to the 21 rectory threatening you? 22 A Yeah. That was a lady about two blocks away. The 23 sisters called me up. 24 Q Uh-huh. 25 A And said I think she's got a gun, lock your door. 87 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 She was mad about something, but I don't know what. 2 Q Do you remember who that was? 3 A I don't remember her name. But she was like two 4 blocks away, maybe two or three blocks west of me. 5 Q And it was a woman? 6 A It was a woman. 7 Q She had kids? 8 A Don't know about her at all. 9 Q Did you ever hear why she was mad? 10 A I think she was a little -- I don't think she was 11 fully there. 12 Q Did anyone ever come to your door and complain? 13 A No. 14 Q Never -- no one ever came to the door and 15 threatened you? 16 A No. 17 Q Okay. Were there -- you took vacations sometimes, 18 obviously, when you were at St. John's? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Looked like maybe every -- once -- once a year or 21 so? 22 A Almost, yeah. 23 Q Okay. And when you would take vacations, did you 24 have to make any arrangements for a priest to come 25 to the parish? 88 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Yes. 2 Q What would you do, typically, in that regard? 3 A That's a hard question. Could -- just whatever I 4 could find around. 5 Q Were there any particular priests that you would go 6 to first? 7 A No, I don't know that answer. Mostly religious 8 priests. 9 Q Why? 10 A Because they were more available. 11 Q Okay. Did you ever have any -- any priest visitors 12 at St. John's that you would entertain at the 13 rectory? 14 A Sure, I would have some. Not too many. 15 Q Do you remember any of the ones that you would? 16 A Sure, Monsignor Pointek. 17 Q How often would Monsignor Pointek come around? 18 A Oh, maybe twice a month. I went to him almost 19 every week except at the end. 20 Q Where did he -- where was he at during that time 21 period? 22 A He was in Tehechapi. 23 Q Okay. So you'd go to him about once a week? 24 A When he lived in -- when he lived in -- no, not in 25 Tehechapi. When he lived in Tipton I went about 89 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 once a week. 2 Q Okay. Would he come around -- I think you 3 mentioned he came about twice a month when you were 4 at St. John's? 5 A That's -- that's a rough estimate, but not -- I 6 went mostly to him. 7 Q Did it -- did it vary from -- from year to year? 8 In other words, were there time periods where he 9 came over more frequently and other times where he 10 came over less frequently? 11 A No. But when he moved to -- moved to Tehechapi, he 12 didn't come around much anymore. 13 Q Okay. In relation to the -- the rectory, the new 14 rectory being built, how soon after it was built 15 would he start coming around, or was he already 16 coming around? 17 A How soon? 18 Q Yeah. 19 A When he come around? 20 Q Yeah. 21 A I don't know because I went to him then mostly. 22 Q Okay. 23 A Because he owned Tipton. Yeah. 24 Q Okay. 25 A But he moved to Tehechapi later on. 90 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Let me ask the question a little differently 2 because I think I asked it in a confusing way. 3 A You did. 4 Q When -- when you were in the old rectory building, 5 the shack or however you described it -- 6 A I don't remember seeing him come often in the old 7 rectory. 8 Q Okay. He came over more when the new rectory was 9 built? 10 A He came over a little more, but he didn't come too 11 often. If I said twice a month, that's going too 12 far. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Because I usually went to see him. 15 Q Okay. Any other priests that might come over 16 some -- somewhat regularly? 17 A Regularly, no. No. 18 Q Other than, you know, once a year or just a chance 19 encounter, are there any other priests that you 20 associated with that would come over and -- and 21 visit? 22 A No, just sometimes for confession. 23 Q Okay. At -- did you at any point in time give 24 George a key to the rectory? 25 A Yes. 91 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q How -- when, about, did you give him a key to the 2 rectory? 3 A I don't know. Probably '63, '64. 4 Q Did you tell anyone that you were giving him a key 5 to the rectory? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you think Ms. -- did you inform Ms. Zielman in 8 any way that he had a key to the rectory? 9 A No. 10 Q Did he ever use that key, to your knowledge? 11 A I presume. 12 Q Why do you presume that? 13 A Because I didn't have to open the door. 14 Q Was that a key for the front door or was that -- 15 A Front door. 16 Q Okay. Was there a different key for the back door? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Did you give him a key to that? 19 A No. 20 Q All right. Now, when -- when -- when Monsignor 21 Pointek would come over, or Father Pointek, when -- 22 where would you entertain him? 23 A In my room. 24 Q The den? 25 A My room, yeah. 92 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. 2 A But he didn't come very often. 3 Q Where the TV would be? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Okay. Was there a couch there? 6 A I -- I think -- I don't even remember now. 7 Q Okay. Do you ever remember him coming over and 8 George also coming over at the same time? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. 11 A He had nothing to do with George. 12 Q Do you remember a Father Benjamin Gabriel ever 13 coming over? 14 A Sure. He took my place several times for vacation. 15 Q Okay. How did you first come to meet him? 16 A I don't know. I don't remember that. 17 Q Was he a priest in Bakersfield at the time he was 18 coming to substitute? 19 A No. He more or less in -- into the diocese, 20 starting to float around. That's all I know. 21 Q Okay. Did -- okay. Did you ever take George on 22 any kind of driving trips? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Where? 25 A Well, once I took him to Milwaukee, not driving, to 93 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 see my folks back there. 2 Q Uh-huh. 3 A And I took him up north someplace. I don't 4 remember now. I do -- 5 Q Okay. It was no secret you were taking him to -- 6 on the trip to Milwaukee? 7 A No. His folks all knew about everything. 8 Q Okay. 9 MR. KNIGHT: Whenever you get a logical 10 breaking point. 11 MR. De MARCO: We can take a break now. 12 That's okay. There's no question pending. 13 MR. KNIGHT: Okay. 14 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: This ends tape number 15 1 of the videotape deposition of Monsignor Anthony 16 Herdegen on June 8, 2006. The time is 11:54 a.m. 17 (A lunch break was taken.) 18 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: This is the beginning 19 of tape number 2 of the videotape deposition of 20 Monsignor Anthony Herdegen on June 8, 2006. The 21 time is 12:36 p.m. 22 BY MR. De MARCO: 23 Q Monsignor, feeling okay? 24 A I'll make it. 25 Q Okay. Monsignor, were you friendly with 94 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Ms. Zielman? 2 A Ms. Zielman? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A Oh, yeah, she was a good old lady. 5 Q You talked regularly? 6 A Oh, fine. 7 Q Have breakfast together, obviously? 8 A No, we didn't have breakfast. 9 Q She didn't -- she didn't have breakfast with you? 10 A No. 11 Q She would just cook it and then -- 12 A She had her own room there and a little table in 13 the kitchen there. She wasn't -- she was a very 14 humble lady. 15 Q So she never had breakfast with you there? 16 A No. 17 Q Oh, okay. But you -- you didn't shy away from 18 talking with her? 19 A Oh, no. 20 Q Okay. Now, did she ever go -- did she ever go back 21 into the den where the TV room was, to your 22 awareness? 23 A Oh, sure. She made my bed; she did the cleaning. 24 Q Uh-huh. That area of the rectory, was that an area 25 that was normally used for parish business? 95 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. 3 A The rectory went down this way and this was that 4 way. 5 Q So -- 6 A And the business part right out of the kitchen 7 there. 8 Q Okay. So there was a door out of the kitchen to 9 the den area, or no? I'm sorry if I'm unclear. 10 A Oh, yeah, there was a door down the long corridor. 11 There was a door there, yeah. 12 Q Okay. Now, the door down the long corridor, was 13 that something that was normally kept open or shut? 14 A Mostly kept open. 15 Q Sometimes shut, though? 16 A Probably, when it's cold or something, come up that 17 hall. 18 Q Uhm-uhm. Would it ever be shut when you had guests 19 that you were entertaining in the den or your -- 20 your bedroom? 21 A No, I don't think so. I mean, by "guests," they 22 were just priests, you mean, visiting me? 23 Q Anybody. 24 A Maybe they shut because we talked about things, you 25 know, that's none of their business. 96 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. So if I'm understanding correctly, sometimes 2 if you had priests over to visit, that door that 3 led from the kitchen -- 4 A Would be closed sometimes. It was we -- see, 5 remember, it went this way, and the door was here, 6 and it's way down here. That's the kitchen down 7 here. 8 Q Okay. 9 A See an L shape there? 10 Q Uh-huh. Okay. How about when -- when you had 11 George watching TV; do you know if that door was 12 ever shut? 13 A Scarcely. 14 Q But sometimes? 15 A Could be, yeah. 16 Q You think sometimes it was shut? 17 A It's possible. There was no reason for it. 18 Q Okay. You never gave any instruction for it to be 19 shut? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. Ms. Zielman never joined you to watch TV 22 back there? 23 A No. 24 Q Any reason why not? 25 A Well, I suppose she felt -- felt her place was 97 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 there. There's no reason. 2 Q Was that area where you -- where you had the den 3 for TV something -- a place that you allowed most 4 people in the parish to come and visit you? 5 A No. Only my friends, really, because that was 6 private back there, and I did my work back on my 7 desk. But they came in the office front. 8 Q Okay. Other than -- 9 A Once in a while somebody come, some people and 10 stuff that I knew well, you know. 11 Q Okay. Other than George and Howard and Monsignor 12 Pointek, who were some of the other friends that 13 would come and visit you back in the den? 14 A Oh, Father Eberhart would come back there, stay 15 there a few hours. But he's dead now. 16 Q Uh-huh. Anybody else? 17 A And Rod would come and visit me. 18 Q Rod Craig? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Back in that den area? 21 A Uhm-uhm. In my private office there. 22 Q Okay. Anybody else? 23 A I can't think of anybody else, really. Unless 24 another priest would come, he's always welcome back 25 there, too, you know. 98 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q But parishioners not so much? 2 A Not so much, no, parishioners. Didn't see them in 3 there, back there much. I can't even remember it, 4 whether someone did come or not. 5 Q Any other -- any other altar boys of the parish 6 ever -- ever go back in that area other than Rod 7 or -- or the Santillan boys? 8 A It could be getting something out of there, too, 9 getting like a cassock or surplice or something. 10 Q But they wouldn't stay there for long? 11 A No. They'd say, "I forgot to bring this out here." 12 Q But you wouldn't, say, sit back there and watch TV 13 with any others? 14 A No. No. 15 Q Okay. Did you ever become aware that George or 16 Howard were talking with the other kids that they 17 were getting the special treatment of going back 18 there? 19 A No, I wasn't aware of that. 20 Q And -- and Ms. Zielman never spoke with you 21 about -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- that? 24 Do you remember telling her at any 25 time that they were doing work for you? 99 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Okay. When you would have the TV on, would you 3 guys keep it real loud? Would you -- would it be 4 relatively low? 5 A Just ordinary. 6 Q Ordinary. So if you were talking, you'd still be 7 able to -- if -- 8 A Could hear us. 9 Q You could sit -- you could talk over the sound of 10 it? 11 A Over it. 12 Q If one were in the kitchen and the door were open, 13 could you hear the TV? 14 A I don't know that. I suppose you could if it were 15 loud enough. Ordinarily not. 16 Q Ordinarily not? 17 A Unless you came down this one section. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Yeah, because it didn't go way out. I never cared 20 for a loud TV. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Just an ordinary one. 23 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned sometimes you -- you gave 24 or -- you gave money or gifts to the Santillan 25 boys? 100 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Uhm-uhm. 2 Q What sort of gifts did you give them? 3 A Oh, I'd give them candies, I'd give them a bunny, 4 things like that. 5 Q Anything else you can think of? 6 A No. 7 Q How often -- 8 A Food around, because they were always hungry-like. 9 Q Okay. Anything else you can think of? Clothes? 10 A No, I don't remember giving them clothes. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Because their folks took care of them pretty well. 13 Q Yeah. What kind of -- you'd give them what, a 14 candy bar when you say "candies," or what would 15 you -- 16 A Candy bar, sure. 17 Q Anything else? 18 A I never gave them drinks or anything like that. 19 Q Okay. Did -- any other kind of candies than the 20 candy bars that you'd give them? 21 A I wouldn't remember that. 22 Q Did you ever -- how did you give it to them, in 23 bags or some other way? 24 A Candy bars. 25 Q Just give them a candy bar? 101 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Or something like that. If they want it. If they 2 want it, that's all. 3 Q How often? 4 A I couldn't tell you that. 5 Q You never remember giving them bags of candy, 6 though? 7 A I remember sending him, when he was in the service, 8 a box of candy and cookies and -- and -- oh, I 9 don't know, what was I going to say? -- pretzels 10 and stuff like that. 11 Q Uh-huh. 12 A Because he had -- he was alone in the service, so I 13 felt sorry for him up there. 14 Q Okay. You mentioned you gave them money sometimes? 15 A Uhm-uhm. 16 Q Like how much? 17 A Maybe $5 here or there. 18 Q Why would you give them money? 19 A They needed it. They needed it. 20 Q For what? 21 A Whatever they bought. 22 Q How often would you -- you'd give it to them what, 23 monthly, yearly, weekly? What? 24 A Not regularly, no. On occasions, you know. 25 Q Were there particular occasions you can remember? 102 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A When they came and asked. 2 Q So they would ask for the money and you'd give them 3 money? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Would you ever give them money when they didn't 6 ask? 7 A I don't remember that. 8 Q Okay. Do you ever remember giving either of the 9 two brothers any -- any other gifts of greater 10 value? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q What sort of gifts? 13 A I helped one start a bank account. 14 Q Uh-huh. Anything else you can remember of greater 15 value that you gave? 16 A No. But I helped them buy a car or something. 17 See, they're old already. 18 Q Which one do you remember -- did you help both of 19 them or one of them or -- 20 A Young one. The old one first. 21 Q Old -- did you help both of them buy a car? 22 A No, something toward a car. 23 Q Okay. Which one did you help with some -- 24 A George. 25 Q George? 103 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A George. 2 Q Do you remember helping Howard? 3 A Not for a car, no, not like that. 4 Q For anything else of significant value? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q Motorcycle or anything like that? 7 A Oh, no. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I helped somebody get some clothes, though, for a 10 motorcycle, his jacket, you know, so he had -- 11 would -- 12 Q Now, when you were helping them towards these -- 13 when you helped George towards the car, did you 14 tell anyone you were helping him? 15 A I don't think so. I don't know. Maybe his folks 16 found out. 17 Q You think you told his folks? 18 A I think he told his folks. 19 Q Uh-huh. Did they ever -- ever ask you any 20 questions about it? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. And they never asked you a single question 23 about why George was spending time at the rectory? 24 A No. Unless they had company. That's all. 25 Q Okay. 104 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 THE REPORTER: I didn't hear you. 2 THE WITNESS: For company, keep me 3 company. 4 BY MR. De MARCO: 5 Q Okay. Did you -- did you ever go over to the 6 Santillan home? 7 A Oh, yes. 8 Q When -- on what occasion would you go over? 9 A I ate there many times. 10 Q Uh-huh. 11 A Played cards with them at nighttime. 12 Q If you had to estimate over the years, how often 13 would you go over there? 14 A Oh, maybe twice a month, maybe three times. 15 Q Uh-huh. Usually for meals? 16 A Usually for meals, yeah, because I was usually 17 invited. 18 Q Uh-huh. 19 A And then we'd come after meal, play -- they would 20 play cards. 21 Q You liked Leatha -- or Leatha and Tilo? 22 A They were always good to me. 23 Q Uh-huh. You thought they were good parents? 24 A Well, yes, but they favored some of the others. 25 Q Uh-huh. 105 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A That's why I helped them. 2 Q Uh-huh. 3 A Because they would come up to me -- see, I could 4 see what they were doing for this and this one and 5 not that. 6 Q But they never asked you to spend time with George 7 or Howard? 8 A No. 9 Q But you think they were aware you were? Do you 10 think they were aware that you were spending time 11 with George and Howard? 12 A Well, they must have been. They must have known 13 that. 14 Q Why? 15 A Why shouldn't they? They left the house. Probably 16 said I was going over to -- they probably said they 17 were going over to see me. 18 Q Did you ever ask for them to come over when you 19 were at mealtime with them? 20 A Oh, I invited them, yeah. You mean to the 21 parents -- the parents? 22 Q So when you were over at meals at the -- at the 23 folks' house, would you ever say, you know, I'd 24 like George to come over and visit me or I'd like 25 Howard to come after dinner with me over to the 106 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 rectory or anything like that? 2 A No, as they -- but they were to come sometimes, if 3 I invited them to, for lunch or dinner or 4 breakfast. Breakfast usually was taken for -- for 5 granted. 6 Q They would normally come over for breakfast? 7 A He would. 8 Q Which one? I'm sorry. 9 A George. I don't think Howard did, though. I 10 don't -- honestly don't remember. 11 Q Okay. But you never -- you never watched TV with 12 any of the other altar boys there at the rectory? 13 A No, not that I know of any. 14 Q What sort of cleaning schedule did Mrs. Zielman 15 keep? 16 A She tried to do most of the work in the morning. 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A And go home at noon, afternoon. 19 Q Did she clean every day? 20 A Oh, no. There was no need for that. 21 Q Uh-huh. Did -- did -- was there a regular schedule 22 in terms of when she would clean your room? 23 A She usually did it when I -- before I came over 24 for -- after mass. 25 Q You said mass daily? 107 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Sure. 2 Q So she'd clean your room daily? 3 A She -- no. She'd make my bed daily, though. 4 Q Uh-huh. 5 A But not clean daily. 6 Q Okay. Okay. How -- did she drive to the parish or 7 to the rectory, or how did she get there? 8 A No, she was only a block away on the other side of 9 the school grounds. 10 Q Uh-huh. 11 A No, she didn't drive. 12 Q Was she married? 13 A She's an old widow. 14 Q So did she have any kids, do you know? 15 A Sure. 16 Q Do you remember who they were? 17 A The boys, I don't know. One girl was -- name was 18 Mary. 19 Q Uhm-uhm. 20 A And I don't know who, Kay -- Katherine one. She 21 had about three, four girls, and maybe a couple of 22 boys, maybe more. 23 Q Okay. Do you know if Mary ever came to visit her 24 mom at the rectory? 25 A Sure. 108 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q More than one time? 2 A Oh, yeah. 3 Q Some -- relatively often or -- 4 A Well, to visit her mother. Sometimes she'd be 5 eating with her mother back there and sometimes she 6 would take care of some things for her mother. 7 Q So she'd help her mother out with some of her 8 duties? 9 A Because I saw her there many times. I shouldn't 10 say "many times," but a number of times when I went 11 to the kitchen and talked to them. 12 Q Okay. Was that sort of a month -- if you had to 13 estimate, more than once a month? 14 A Well, maybe a couple times a month. 15 Q And when she'd come over, would she just be over 16 for a few minutes, or do you think -- 17 A Well, I don't know how long she stayed. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Because I would go back in the room. 20 Q You'd go back in your room? 21 A Mary was taking care of her mother. See, Mary had 22 no husband; he was dead. And she had a couple 23 children that stayed there, too. 24 Q Did she live with her mom? 25 A Yeah. 109 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. But -- and Mary never came back in to the 2 den area and watched TV with you? 3 A No. 4 Q And -- and Mrs. Zielman didn't either? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Do you ever remember having Father 7 Gabriel -- well, I'm sorry. Let me ask a different 8 question. 9 Do you ever remember taking trips to 10 Bakersfield with George? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What would you -- you'd drive there, I take it? 13 A Uhm-uhm, and sometimes he would. 14 Q And then later he would? 15 A (Nods head.) 16 Q And where would you go there? 17 A Many times we went to a show. 18 Q To a show? 19 A To a show, yeah. 20 Q Okay. Would that be the only thing you'd do when 21 you'd go there? 22 A I think so. 23 Q Okay. 24 A I don't think we -- we went out to eat. Maybe we 25 stopped for something. I presume so. You know, 110 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 kids always like something to eat. 2 Q Okay. Do you ever recall taking George to 3 Bakersfield for confession? 4 A For his confession? 5 Q Or yours. 6 A He could have been, but I don't hardly -- I don't 7 hardly think so. 8 Q Okay. 9 A But it could have been. 10 Q Uh-huh. Is that the general area where you would 11 go for confession? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Which parish? 14 A Well, we went to Guadalupe and went to St. Francis. 15 Q Did you go to one more than the other? 16 A Well, let's see. The Guadalupe man was 17 transferred, living in St. Francis, so I would go 18 to him. He's dead now. He's an old -- old holy 19 ghost father. 20 Q Uhm-uhm. 21 A I can't think of his name now. 22 Q Don't know. 23 But you think -- do you -- do you 24 believe that you took George with you at least once 25 to have confession heard in Bakersfield? 111 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A For my confession? 2 Q For his. 3 A I don't remember that. 4 Q You don't remember asking him and suggesting that 5 he have his confession heard at Our Lady of 6 Guadalupe? 7 A Could have been. I doubt it, though. 8 Q Why do you doubt it? 9 A Because you -- it was maybe one time, if he went, 10 and if he did, I don't remember that. 11 Q Okay. Was that the -- was Bakersfield and those 12 parishes the closest places for you to be able to 13 go have your confession heard? 14 A Well, no. There could have been one in -- in 15 McFarland, but I didn't go there. And then Delano. 16 And there could have been one in Shafter. 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A But I preferred the holy ghost fathers. 19 Q Why was that? 20 A Religious. I liked to go to religious. 21 Q Any particular reason? 22 A Yeah, they're more spiritual. 23 Q Okay. Do you remember if Father Gabriel was a -- a 24 religious order priest? 25 A I don't think so. 112 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q What do you remember about him? 2 A He was a big man. 3 Q Uh-huh. 4 A He had a -- a cousin Gabriel, a quarterback in the 5 Rams. 6 Q Roman Gabriel? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A And I felt sorry for him. I gave him some of my 10 things. He was short on a lot of things, wandering 11 around, so I did what I could for him to help him 12 out. 13 Q Did you ever have any sense as to why he was 14 wandering around? 15 A No. It wasn't none of my business. He'd come 16 maybe for -- I don't even know where he came from. 17 He was -- he must have been a Filipino, huh? 18 Q Uh-huh. 19 A Oh, you knew. Then you asked me all these things 20 and you knew all the answers? Boy, oh, boy, that 21 isn't fair. 22 Q I think I'd get objections, Monsignor, if I 23 suggested that information to you to begin with, so 24 I have to ask, unfortunately. 25 MR. KNIGHT: That's the way we do it. 113 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 MR. De MARCO: I apologize for -- 2 MR. KNIGHT: Even when we know, we got to 3 ask. 4 MR. De MARCO: I apologize for having to 5 do it that way. It's not to -- it's not to trouble 6 you. 7 BY MR. De MARCO: 8 Q Do you remember Father Gabriel being assigned to a 9 parish in Earlimart? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q St. Jude's? 12 A It could be. 13 Q Okay. 14 A But I couldn't tell you. 15 Q You never visited him there? 16 A No. 17 Q And -- and do you recall asking him to substitute 18 for you at your parish? 19 A I do. 20 Q Okay. More than one time? 21 A I think so. 22 Q Do you recall why you asked him? 23 A Handy. He was free, that's why. It was hard to 24 get somebody to take your place. 25 Q Do you recall -- recall encountering him at Our 114 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Lady of Guadalupe in Bakersfield? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. Do you recall, was he one of the priests 4 you'd go to for confession? 5 A I could have. 6 Q But you don't know for certain? 7 A No, I don't know for sure. 8 Q Okay. The -- I think we talked a little bit, when 9 we were -- when we were -- I was asking you 10 questions about Atascadero, about the purpose or 11 what a confession is. 12 Is it the purpose of confession 13 for -- for someone to be confessing all of their 14 sins? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A But not all of the whole pass and everything, 18 unless you want to do it, but from your last 19 confession, see, you're responsible from that -- 20 Q And how -- 21 A -- purpose for -- what we call to have our sins 22 forgiven, ask the grace of God to come in. 23 Q And that's a practice you followed yourself? 24 A Oh, we all do. 25 Q Okay. How often would you have your confession 115 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 heard? 2 A At least two or three times a week. I mean not a 3 week, a month. Usually, in the beginning, was once 4 a month -- once a week, and then two or three times 5 a month. Depends upon how tied up. 6 MR. JOHNSON: And let me just, for the 7 record, make an objection to the relevancy of this, 8 particularly in view of the fact that there is the 9 privilege of confession. 10 MR. KNIGHT: I have a question, Tony -- 11 MR. De MARCO: Yes. 12 MR. KNIGHT: -- just from the 13 standpoint -- 14 MR. De MARCO: Yes, sir. 15 MR. KNIGHT: -- going forward, I have a 3 16 o'clock this afternoon. Should I have one of my 17 associates available or you -- 18 MR. De MARCO: Right now we're at 1:00? 19 MR. KNIGHT: Yeah. 20 MR. De MARCO: Carey, how much time do 21 you think you'll take? 22 MR. JOHNSON: Maybe 15 minutes or so. 23 That's about all. 24 MR. De MARCO: Let me check my outline, 25 Patrick. I don't have a tremendous amount more, I 116 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 know that. 2 MR. KNIGHT: Okay. 3 MR. De MARCO: I've got most of the areas 4 I wanted to -- to ask him, but there are a few 5 subject areas left. I wouldn't say -- I don't want 6 to tell you to cancel it yet. Maybe you can give 7 me another 20 minutes, 30 minutes. 8 MR. KNIGHT: No. But I'll get a fill-in 9 to come on in if need be. 10 MR. De MARCO: Okay. 11 MR. KNIGHT: Because this is an 12 out-of-office appointment. 13 MR. De MARCO: I might be -- I might be 14 done. We might be done. 15 MR. KNIGHT: We're making progress. 16 MR. De MARCO: We are making good 17 progress. 18 BY MR. De MARCO: 19 Q Monsignor, I wanted to back up again for just a 20 second back to the days when you were at Ryan, at 21 the Ryan Seminary. 22 The -- and we talked a bit about 23 the -- the massages there. And I'm unclear, I 24 think at one point you mentioned they were done in 25 a room and at another point I think you mentioned 117 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 that they were done in the dormitory. 2 So I just want to ask you, were 3 they -- were the massages that you gave to the kids 4 that had the sore muscles, where would they be 5 done? 6 A Usually in a little room where we had our linens 7 and the medicines, and they stood in there, 8 usually. 9 Q They stood up while you massaged them? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q They -- they never laid down? 12 A Unless they were sick in bed. 13 Q Okay. And when they were sick in bed, that will be 14 in their dormitory? 15 A And I would take only that part that was bothering 16 them. 17 Q Okay. 18 A There was no other clothes going around this way. 19 Q Okay. 20 A There was no fondling or anything like that. I 21 just took of their needs. 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A I had to. 24 Q Okay. Have you ever had in your life any kind of 25 medical training? 118 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I just was like a father to them. 4 Q Do you think the rector had any awareness of the 5 fact that you were administering this kind of first 6 aid, so to speak, to them? 7 A I would presume. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Objection, speculation, 9 lack of foundation on that. 10 MR. De MARCO: Well, I'll ask the 11 foundation now. 12 BY MR. De MARCO: 13 Q Why -- why would you presume that? 14 A Because somebody has to take care of the sick kid. 15 Q And he didn't? 16 A We couldn't -- no, he didn't. And we couldn't send 17 them all to a doctor. Like he had a cold or 18 sickness or sore, you took care of that. Just like 19 you would to your children. I hope you will. 20 Q The -- the use of the alcohol, where did you learn 21 about using alcohol for -- for that kind of 22 massage? 23 A I've known that for years. Athletes use alcohol, 24 your arms and stuff like that. Why? 25 Q Well, just -- 119 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A I got that much sense yet. 2 Q Is that something just -- you just heard and you 3 can't recall where you heard it from or -- 4 A Well, from home, too. 5 Q But you never got any training as a priest about 6 that kind of thing? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Maybe I shouldn't have done that, but who was going 10 to do it? 11 Q Right. 12 A If you were on an island with people, you had to 13 take care of the sick as they came. 14 Q You never told the rector that, you know, I've 15 been -- I've been taking care of this part of the 16 student body's needs? 17 A I presume he knew because he never showed up for 18 things like that. And I saw it was a kid in need. 19 Q Was there a schedule for that kind of stuff? 20 A No. 21 Q It was just someone would come up and ask and -- 22 A (Nods head.) 23 Q How often would that come up? 24 A Oh, rarely. If there's one in two months or 25 something like that. It wasn't -- except when the 120 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 seasons were playing, you know, and they'd skin 2 themselves or they -- that possibility of getting 3 hurt. 4 Q Okay. So when the season, whatever sport seasons 5 were on, this would occur more often? 6 A Or winter when they had colds and -- and coughs and 7 everything. 8 Q All right. And when the seasons were on, if you 9 had to estimate how often you had to, you know, rub 10 out the knots or do any other kind of alcohol 11 massage? 12 A Not too often, no. Not too often. 13 Q Weekly? Monthly? 14 A It's hard to say when a person gets hurt. 15 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned that sometimes there 16 would be kids waiting -- 17 A Yeah, he's got a cold. 18 Q -- their turn. 19 A And he's got this and he's got that. 20 Q Would they -- and -- 21 A They'd be waiting around. 22 Q Okay. Would -- and -- and I'm trying to 23 envision -- trying to think back and -- and 24 visualize it a little bit. 25 There's this room that would be 121 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 utilized where the linens were. And would they 2 wait outside the room or would they wait somewhere 3 else or was -- 4 A Couldn't get in. 5 Q They couldn't get in? 6 A No, because there was one of those cut-off rooms 7 that comes down like that (indicating) -- 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A -- where the steps were going on, and it just -- 10 and you had the linens around here and I had one, 11 oh, section with a few medical things. 12 Q Okay. And -- and so they'd stand -- whoever was 13 getting the -- the massage or the treatment would 14 stand up in this little area underneath the stairs? 15 A You know, kind of bent. 16 Q Kind of cramped in? 17 A Sure, you couldn't stand full way. 18 Q And you'd be in there with them? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q And -- and there were times, I take it, that some 21 kids were waiting for treatment also? 22 A Yeah, for anything. 23 Q Where would they wait? 24 A Right out there. 25 Q Right outside? 122 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Doors open, see. 2 Q Okay. 3 A You're standing there, you have to wait your turn. 4 Q Okay. Okay. Any of them ever pull muscles like 5 their gluteus maximus? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. Any of them ever pull chest muscles? 8 A I don't think so. Usually it was arms. 9 Q Usually it was -- 10 A Arms or a leg. 11 Q And they'd have to bare their legs? 12 A Well, sure, you can't go through -- through their 13 pants. 14 Q Okay. So would -- would they have shorts on, or 15 would they have to take their shorts off? 16 A Roll up their pants. 17 Q Roll up their pants, okay. 18 Now, there was -- I think that -- 19 counsel mentioned San Joaquin High? 20 MR. JOHNSON: San Joaquin Memorial. 21 BY MR. De MARCO: 22 Q San Joaquin Memorial. That was adjacent to the 23 school? 24 A On the grounds, yeah. 25 Q On the grounds? 123 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A All the way around the grounds. 2 Q Do you know if they had a nursing staff there? 3 A I doubt it. I don't know. 4 Q Never inquired? 5 A Never heard of it. 6 Q Okay. And the students that were there at the 7 seminary were also attending classes at San Joaquin 8 Memorial, typically? 9 A Oh, yeah. 10 Q Okay. 11 A They had most -- most of their studies over there. 12 Q Okay. But they would sleep over in the rectory or 13 over in -- excuse me, in the seminary part? 14 A Oh, yeah. 15 Q And there were students other than seminary 16 students that were going to San Joaquin Memorial, 17 obviously? 18 A Oh, yes. They were only a handful. 19 Q How many -- how many would you estimate were in the 20 class, were in the seminary at a time? 21 A My time, maybe 12 to 15. 22 Q Okay. 23 A See, it was really small in the beginning. 24 Q Yeah. 25 A I wasn't there in the beginning. Then they only 124 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 have 6, 8. It grew to about 12, 14, 15. Then the 2 Jesuits came in, and I -- I went to do my other 3 work. 4 Q Okay. Do you recall around the time that you were 5 about ready to leave Atascadero ever having the 6 desire to join the monastic life, to be a Trappist? 7 A I do remember that. 8 Q What do you remember in that regard? 9 A I don't remember when -- how -- when it was, 10 though. 11 Q Uh-huh. 12 A And my Bishop said no, I need you here. 13 Q Do you remember why you wanted to join the monastic 14 life? 15 A I liked the religious life. 16 Q What about it? 17 A Spiritual more so than a priest leader. 18 Q Uh-huh. Anything different about activities? 19 A No. More prayer. 20 Q Isolation? 21 A Isolation, not necessarily. You had your groups, 22 you know, unless you wanted to be a -- oh, those 23 that are on the coast there. I forget what they're 24 called. They lived in little homes like that. 25 Q Franciscans? 125 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. No. I can't think of the word. 2 Q Hermits? 3 A Like hermits they were, but they have a different 4 name. But I didn't -- I was thinking more of like 5 going to Benedictines or going to the -- the 6 Trappists, stuff like that. But they have their 7 own rooms and everything, too. 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A And silence. 10 THE REPORTER: And what was that last 11 word? 12 THE WITNESS: Silence. 13 THE REPORTER: Silence. Thank you. 14 BY MR. De MARCO: 15 Q Okay. After you -- you left St. John's, do you 16 remember if at any other parish before your 17 retirement anybody else ever made complaint that 18 you became aware of about -- 19 A No one has ever complained about anything. 20 Q -- about any kind of sexual misconduct? 21 A No. Do you know of any? 22 Q I got to ask questions, unfortunately. I can't 23 give you answers. I apologize. 24 A I would like to know who, where, and how. 25 Q Do you ever remember having a meeting -- or do you 126 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 remember Bishop Madera? 2 A Sure. 3 Q Have you ever had to meet with him? 4 A Yeah, I do. 5 Q Okay. Did you ever have to meet with him about any 6 kind of complaints? 7 A Oh, one -- one boy said I'd -- I touched him or 8 something. And I didn't do like that, what he 9 said. But a misunderstanding completely. 10 Q Where did you meet with him? 11 A In his office. 12 Q He called you up to his office? 13 A No, I went up. 14 Q On your own? 15 A After I heard about that. 16 Q Uh-huh. And do you recall what was being said 17 about how you touched or what you were alleged to 18 have done? 19 A No. I didn't -- 20 Q Do you remember -- it wasn't -- was it regarding 21 the Santillans? 22 A No. 23 Q It was after -- but it was after you left St. 24 John's? 25 A Yeah. 127 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. You don't remember the names -- any of the 2 names of the folks involved? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you remember what parish you were at? 5 A I think it was Corcoran. 6 Q Okay. Do you remember what Bishop Madera's 7 response was to you? 8 A I don't remember that. 9 Q Do you know if that was shortly before your 10 retirement, or was that a ways before? 11 A Way back when. 12 Q Okay. Now, there was a point in time, I think in 13 the early '70s, where it was contemplated that 14 you'd be removed from -- from St. John's and moved 15 to another parish? 16 A Yeah. It was time for me to move. 17 Q Okay. Do you remember what reasons were given to 18 you why -- 19 A No, except I'd been there too long. 20 Q Uh-huh. 21 A And then my people asked that I stay there until 22 they celebrated my 25th anniversary. 23 Q Uhm-uhm. 24 A And it extended it for three, five years more. 25 Q Okay. Do you ever remember being asked if you'd be 128 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 willing to share a rectory with another priest, 2 associated with that move? 3 A No. 4 Q You don't remember anyone calling you and -- and 5 asking if you'd be willing to share a rectory? 6 A Share a rectory? 7 Q Have another priest living in a rectory with you. 8 A No, never heard of that. 9 Q In any of your assignments after St. John's, did 10 you ever have any other priests living with you in 11 a rectory? 12 A After St. John's. Oh, yes. We had two, three of 13 them. 14 Q Which ones, do you remember? 15 A Oh -- 16 MR. KNIGHT: Which assignments or which 17 priests? 18 MR. De MARCO: Yeah. Yeah, which 19 assignments. 20 THE WITNESS: When I was at St. -- oh, 21 what's the name of that place now? -- St. Anne's, 22 we had two priests there. 23 BY MR. De MARCO: 24 Q Uh-huh. 25 A They were living there. 129 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. Any others you can remember? 2 A St. Anne's. Priests, you mean? 3 Q No, just the -- what assignments you were at when 4 you had other priests living with you? 5 A No. St. Anne's is the only place that, as a 6 pastor, I had a priest. 7 Q Was St. Anne's the parish you moved to immediately 8 after St. John's, or no? 9 A No, I moved up to Hilmar. 10 Q Okay. Do you remember the name of the parish 11 there? 12 A St. Mary's, I think. 13 Q Do you remember there being any kind of complaints 14 raised against you there? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. Did you ever, on any occasion while you were 17 at St. John's, ever talk with anyone at the 18 chancery office about your visitors at the rectory? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q No one from the chancery ever -- office ever 21 contacted you about that? 22 A No. 23 Q Okay. And you're unaware of any complaints ever 24 being raised about that other than the lawsuits 25 that have been filed, obviously? 130 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. Mrs. Zielman was a paid employee? 3 A Yes, she was. 4 Q Okay. Was she -- and she was -- sounds like she 5 was part-time? 6 A Well, part -- she was old already, didn't want to 7 burden her. 8 Q Okay. And she was paid for with parish funds? 9 A Oh, yes, housekeeper. 10 Q Okay. And you were sort of the steward of parish 11 funds? 12 A Priest czar, unless they were -- 13 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, I -- 14 MR. De MARCO: Steward of parish funds. 15 THE REPORTER: Right. What was your 16 answer? 17 MR. KNIGHT: Priest thar? 18 THE WITNESS: Priest czar. 19 THE REPORTER: Oh, priest czar? 20 MR. KNIGHT: Yes. 21 BY MR. De MARCO: 22 Q But it was your understanding the funds ultimately, 23 though, belonged to the diocese? 24 A Oh, sure. We all know that. 25 Q Okay. So in a real way, she was an employee of the 131 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 diocese? 2 A No, we paid her. The diocese didn't pay her at 3 all. 4 Q Uhm-uhm. 5 A Didn't need to -- 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 A I don't think they even gave her insurance, 8 although they must have. I don't know that. Do 9 they? I don't even know that. 10 Q Okay. 11 MR. KNIGHT: Nor do I. 12 THE WITNESS: In those days, we didn't 13 bother about those things. 14 BY MR. De MARCO: 15 Q Have you -- have you kept up with her -- her 16 daughter Mary over the years? 17 A No. 18 Q When's the last time you can ever recall hearing 19 anything about her? 20 A Maybe 20 years ago or something. 21 Q Do you -- do you keep up with -- with Rod Craig? 22 A I haven't heard from him for years. 23 Q When's the last time you can remember hearing from 24 him? 25 A Maybe two, three years ago. 132 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Okay. By the way -- and I -- I apologize if I'm 2 indelicate in the way I ask; I don't mean to be. 3 I know it was mentioned before that 4 you suffered from a stroke. When was that? 5 A In September '3. 6 Q September 3rd? 7 A '03. 8 Q '03. Okay. Up until two or three years ago, how 9 frequently would you speak with -- with Rod Craig? 10 A I don't think I have. I really don't think I did. 11 Q Before that, before -- you know, let's say going 12 back over the years, did you keep up with him? 13 A Well, he kept up with me when he come to see the 14 seminarians. 15 Q Uh-huh. 16 A And we'd all eat lunch or dinner together, and then 17 I'd go back to my place. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I was living with my sister upstairs, and they 20 picked me up to join seven or eight of the 21 seminarians there. 22 Q That's here in Wisconsin? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Okay. Before you retired, did you keep up with 25 him? 133 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Rod? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A That's about the only time. Maybe he wrote to me a 4 letter when he was in a hospital there. But what 5 it was for, it's up to him. That's about all. 6 Why? I have no -- no bad contacts 7 with Rod. I don't know who's pushing that. 8 MR. De MARCO: Patrick, did you want 9 to -- 10 MR. KNIGHT: Monsignor, I think the 11 question that Mr. De Marco put to you was referring 12 to prior to you retiring. So in other words, in 13 California, before you moved back here to be with 14 your sister, whether Rod kept contact with you back 15 then. I think that's what -- 16 MR. De MARCO: Absolutely. 17 MR. KNIGHT: Yeah. So he was asking 18 about back in California before you retired and 19 moved out here, that period of time. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm here since '95. 21 BY MR. De MARCO: 22 Q Uh-huh. So a little over ten years? 23 A I'm sure Rod has written a letter or card or 24 something, uhm-uhm. 25 Q Okay. 134 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A But lately, no, not the last, who knows, four, five 2 years. Certainly -- certainly since I got the 3 stroke, I haven't heard from him either. 4 Q Did he tell you why he -- he had to undergo 5 treatment? 6 A Did he tell me? We didn't speak about that. 7 Q So he didn't -- okay. 8 A Rod's a good man. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Incidentally, I don't see 10 what relevance this has and would certainly request 11 that we have a hearing prior to this testimony 12 being shown to the jury. 13 MR. De MARCO: Which testimony? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Implying that there's some 15 problem with Rod Craig. That's what your questions 16 are doing. 17 BY MR. De MARCO: 18 Q Are you doing okay, Monsignor? 19 A I'm still holding. 20 Q We can take a break. I mean, I -- again, I don't 21 want to make an endurance contest. 22 A The sooner we get finished, the better. 23 Q Did you ever hear of any complaints being made 24 about Father Gabriel? 25 A No. I wonder why you say that always? I never 135 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 heard any complaints. Somebody's talking out of 2 turn or something. At least I'll say I don't know 3 of any. 4 Q Did you -- you talked to him regularly when you 5 were -- when you were in St. John's? 6 A Not regularly. Once in a while, whenever I'd see 7 him. I heard nothing about him. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Except that he spoke of his cousin. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And I think he was from the Philippines. 12 Do you remember Gabriel? 13 Q Uhm-uhm. 14 A Good -- good quarterback. 15 Q Uhm-uhm. Did you ever meet a Father -- a Father 16 Bradley in the Fresno Diocese? 17 A Doesn't ring a bell. 18 Q John Bradley? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. How about a Father Collins? 21 A Collins. 22 Q Uh-huh, out in Buttonwillow. 23 A Oh, yeah. He was going -- he went blind. 24 Q Uhm-uhm. 25 A Went back to Ireland. Yeah, I knew Father Collins. 136 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Did you ever hear about any complaints raised about 2 him? 3 A No, I didn't. 4 Q While you were a priest of the -- of the Fresno 5 Diocese, did you ever hear of any other priests 6 being accused of improprieties with children? 7 A How would I get into that? People that have left, 8 I don't know what was said. In other words, we 9 hear rumors about this and this. Nothing is 10 factual, nothing is accurate to say yes or no. 11 Q You did hear rumors of such, though? 12 A Once in a while passing through, yeah. 13 Q How early was the earliest time you started hearing 14 rumors? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Do you remember the names of any of those folks 17 that you heard rumors about? 18 A No, I don't. They weren't long there. They were 19 little and gone again. 20 Q Do you remember a Father Allison? 21 A No, I don't. Where was he? 22 Q It's my understanding he was in Fresno for a time, 23 the Fresno Diocese. 24 A The diocese, but where was he in the diocese? 25 Q He was in Delano for a time. 137 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No, I don't remember that name there. 2 Q He was in Dinuba. 3 A Dinuba, nope. 4 Q St. Katherine's? 5 A No. I know the place, but don't know of him 6 either. Just like now, I don't know who half of 7 them are, more than half. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And who they are. 10 Q The -- you've heard of a celebrate? 11 A Celebrate, yeah. 12 Q What is it? 13 A It was a permission to say mass. 14 Q Uh-huh. Who would need it? 15 MR. JOHNSON: Let me, by the way, object 16 that this is calling for expert testimony from a 17 person who has not been designated as an expert 18 and -- or qualified as an expert. 19 MR. De MARCO: I'm asking Monsignor, 20 based upon his experience in the diocese, of his 21 understanding. He was a priest for many, many 22 years. He's already testified he has an awareness 23 of what a celebrate is. This is his own percipient 24 knowledge. 25 MR. JOHNSON: And I've put my objection 138 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 on the record. 2 MR. De MARCO: Very good. 3 THE WITNESS: What is a celebrate? 4 BY MR. De MARCO: 5 Q Yeah. 6 A It shows the diocese that you can say mass here, 7 here, everywhere. 8 Q Okay. 9 A But it's not used much, as far as I know. 10 Q When would it -- when would it be necessary -- 11 MR. De MARCO: And, Counsel, I'll 12 stipulate to the continuing objection, that it's 13 made. I'm obviously not agreeing to the objection 14 but -- 15 MR. JOHNSON: All right. 16 MR. De MARCO: Okay. 17 BY MR. De MARCO: 18 Q When -- when would it be necessary for a priest to 19 have a celebrate, in your -- in your experience? 20 A I suppose if you went to the East where nobody 21 knows us. 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A Or around here, no. 24 Q So when a priest from another diocese would be 25 coming to say mass, say, at St. John's, would they 139 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 typically need a celebrate -- to show a celebrate? 2 A We didn't bother about those. 3 Q No? 4 A We usually knew the background to tell us who they 5 were. Because we always had that book and could 6 see his name in there. 7 Q You had what book? I'm sorry. 8 A In our -- what do you call it where priests names 9 are, all over the world? 10 Q "Catholic Directory"? 11 A That's right. Special one for priests. 12 Q The one published by Kennedy and Sons? 13 A That's right. 14 Q So you had one of those at your parish? 15 A Oh, yeah. 16 Q Did you update it annually? 17 A No. 18 Q How often? 19 A Very seldom. You know why? 20 Q Why is that? 21 A Cost $100 for a book like that. 22 Q They're expensive. 23 A Do you got one? 24 Q Yep. 25 A Boy, you must have money. 140 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q I have a need for them. 2 MR. KNIGHT: I think he can write it off. 3 BY MR. De MARCO: 4 Q Did the parish subscribe to any priestly magazines, 5 St. John's? 6 A No, I did. 7 Q You did. 8 A I never caused any parish to spend any money that 9 way. 10 Q What -- what magazines did you subscribe to, 11 priestly magazines? I'm not -- 12 A "The Priest" for one thing. 13 Q Uh-huh. 14 A And "Pastor Review." 15 Q "Homiletic and Pastoral Review"? 16 A Boy, you must be a priest. You are up on your 17 stuff, don't you? Isn't he? 18 MR. KNIGHT: I'm impressed. 19 THE WITNESS: Impressed. I know. I 20 think he studied to be one at one time. 21 BY MR. De MARCO: 22 Q No. 23 A Oh. I had about three or four of them at least, 24 yeah. 25 Q But you were getting "The Priest" regularly? 141 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Oh, yeah. 2 Q Did you ever talk with any other priest of the 3 diocese about articles you'd seen in the magazine? 4 A Was there an article on me in the magazine? 5 Q In other words, you'd get "The Priest" magazine -- 6 A I suppose I did. 7 Q -- and you'd talk with other priests occasionally? 8 A Possibly, yeah. 9 Q And sometimes there might be an article of interest 10 that you'd talk with other priests about? 11 A That's true. That's very possible. 12 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that many, if not 13 most, of the priests of the diocese also subscribed 14 to that magazine? 15 A I would presume that. 16 Q Why would you presume that? 17 A Because it's a good magazine for priests. 18 Q At each of the parishes that you went to -- 19 A I don't know that. 20 Q -- was the -- 21 A I don't say everybody. I say most of them. 22 Q Let me ask -- 23 A I don't know, though. 24 Q Okay. So for most of the assignments through your 25 career as a priest that you had, would you say that 142 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 "The Priest" magazine was at the parish, whether it 2 was you subscribing to it or someone else? 3 A No, I'd have to bring it to -- I would transfer it 4 to where I go. 5 Q Okay. All right. And you started -- you started 6 subscribing to that as soon as you became a priest? 7 A Very soon after. 8 Q Okay. 9 A That's over 60 years ago. 10 Q Yep. Have you ever heard of a religious order of 11 priests by the name of the Servants of the 12 Paraclete? 13 A Oh, sure. 14 Q When did you first hear about them? 15 A When I was first ordained I heard about them. 16 Q And you were ordained in what, '47? 17 A '46. 18 Q '46. What do you recall hearing about them early 19 on? 20 A They took care of priests. 21 Q Any type of issues with priests? 22 A Mostly alcoholics, mostly having problems of some 23 kind. 24 Q Never heard of them treating priests for problems 25 of a dividical nature? 143 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No, I don't know what they took care of except 2 that's what I knew about them. 3 Q Did you ever meet any individuals associated with 4 that order? 5 A Not that I know of. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I heard they wore gray habits. 8 Q Did you hear where they operated out of primarily? 9 A I thought it was in Arizona. Or was it Mon- -- was 10 it state of New Mexico? New Mexico. 11 Q Uhm-uhm. 12 A You know that, too? 13 Q Did you ever visit there? 14 A No. 15 Q Never -- ever know anyone who did? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever meet a Father Fitzgerald -- 18 A I heard about him. 19 Q -- from those Servants? 20 A Was he the founder? Yeah, I got a -- I sent him a 21 mass statement, so I got a card from him, too. 22 Q So you got a card regularly from him? 23 A Not regularly, just acknowledging that I sent him 24 some mass statements. 25 Q Uh-huh. 144 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Is he dead? Sure. 2 Q Do you recall how you first heard about him -- 3 A No, I -- 4 Q -- about the order, the Servants of the Paraclete? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Uhm-uhm. 7 A You come across without realizing them. 8 Q Did you ever talk with any other priests that you 9 can recall about the Servants of the Paraclete? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q You don't recall first reading about them somewhere 12 as opposed to just hearing? 13 A Possibly could have. I don't remember where or 14 how. 15 Q Do you ever recall reading any magazines in "The 16 Priest" about them, "The Priest" magazine? 17 A No, I don't know. I probably could. 18 Q Can you -- 19 A I can't remember all those things. 20 Q Do you remember a Father Ambrose associated with 21 the Servants? 22 A No. 23 Q Okay. Now, there were nuns over at St. John's that 24 helped at the school, right? 25 A Yes. 145 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q While you were there? Do you know if any of them 2 are still living? 3 A I wouldn't know. So many years ago. I left 4 there -- when did I leave? 5 Q Do you remember any of their names? 6 A No. '78 I left, I think. 7 Q Uhm-uhm. 8 A They were gone before my -- my leaving even. They 9 were only with me a few years, and then they -- 10 they took over and no one went. So I can't answer 11 that question. 12 Q Okay. Do you recall ever meeting a Father Mangan? 13 A Oh, yes. Father Mangan? 14 Q Uhm-uhm. 15 A He's dead. 16 Q Uhm-uhm. 17 A Yeah, I remember him. He was a friend of the 18 rector -- 19 Q Uhm-uhm. 20 A -- Monsignor Calvin. 21 Q Do you ever remember hearing any rumors about him? 22 A No. All I know is that he used to take care of -- 23 take Calvin for a drive, the rector, every day, 24 because the rector couldn't drive anymore. 25 Q Uhm-uhm. 146 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A Where do you get all these names? I'm surprised. 2 He's a historian. 3 Q Did you ever know of a Father Battagliola? 4 A I know the name, but I don't remember who he is. 5 Q Out of San Luis Obispo area? 6 A No. No. No, I don't know where -- 7 Q Or Salinas? 8 A No. I heard that name. 9 Q An Argentine-born priest? 10 A No, I don't know the name. But I read it in the -- 11 you know, in the names of the priests. That's 12 about all. 13 Q You don't ever remember hearing about Father 14 Battagliola being murdered? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Was he murdered? Here in our diocese? 18 Q Monterey. 19 A See, I wouldn't know that. When did that happen? 20 Q 1977. 21 A Oh. It's funny I didn't hear about that. 22 MR. KNIGHT: It's a long time ago. 23 BY MR. De MARCO: 24 Q Yeah. You're -- you're unaware of Mrs. Zielman 25 ever walking in on you giving a massage to George? 147 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A She never came in, no. 2 Q Is there any reason why you think that she wouldn't 3 have come in? 4 A She would be home or something. 5 Q I'm almost done. 6 Other than your time at Ryan and 7 your time at St. John's in Wasco, Monsignor, was -- 8 was there ever any other times in your career where 9 you -- you gave massages to -- to minors? 10 A (Shakes head.) 11 Q That's a no? 12 A That's a no. 13 Q Okay. Do you recall ever talking about sex with -- 14 with students at any of your subsequent 15 assignments? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you ever recall talking about sex with -- or 18 talking about masturbation with minors at any of 19 your subsequent assignments? 20 A I was -- I think I remember saying -- warning them 21 against it; it was harmful to body and soul. 22 Q Do you ever -- do you recall ever going to a 23 classroom and -- and telling the students that if 24 you're masturbating, I want to hear about it in the 25 confessional? 148 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 A No, I don't recall that at all. But I did -- I did 2 remind them that it was sin, mortal sin, 3 masturbation, as I understood it. 4 Q Uhm-uhm. Okay. 5 MR. De MARCO: Counsel, if you want to 6 ask some questions, I'll -- I'll move over. And I 7 might think of a few more at most. 8 MR. KNIGHT: How are you doing, 9 Monsignor? Do you want a break -- 10 MR. De MARCO: Do you want to take a 11 break? 12 MR. KNIGHT: -- for a few minutes and 13 then let him finish up? 14 THE WITNESS: I'd rather go home. 15 MR. KNIGHT: Okay. 16 MR. JOHNSON: I would like to take a -- 17 just a very brief break. And I can ask my 18 questions from where I'm sitting, actually. 19 MR. De MARCO: Oh, okay. That's fine. 20 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are going off the 21 record at 1:33 p.m. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the 24 record at 1:48 p.m. 25 EXAMINATION 149 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 BY MR. JOHNSON: 2 Q All right. Monsignor, we've met off the record. 3 I'm Carey Johnson representing the Bishop of 4 Fresno, and I have a few questions for you here. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Regarding your private office, which has been 7 described as a den area where you had a television 8 set -- 9 A That's right. 10 Q -- that's where you would watch TV? 11 A Right. 12 Q And was that, then, off of your actual bedroom? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, was that the only TV in the house that you 15 would watch? 16 A Yes. 17 Q This may refresh your memory or may not. Howard 18 and George Santillan have mentioned that they 19 helped sometimes count the collection. 20 Do you remember them doing that? 21 A George, yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I don't remember Howard, though. 24 Q All right. Now, I want to ask about the bank 25 account. 150 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 You mentioned that you gave George 2 some money to start a bank account? 3 A Uhm-uhm. 4 Q Do you recall approximately how much you gave him? 5 A I think about 500. 6 Q And that was a one-time thing? 7 A Yes. 8 Q With respect to Howard and the car, you testified 9 that you contributed to his purchasing a car? 10 A Well, through that way, yeah. 11 Q Do you -- 12 A I don't remember giving him some extra money for 13 it. I'm not sure of that, so I couldn't answer 14 that question that way. Maybe the 500 that he had 15 could be applied when needed. 16 Q Okay. Well, now, George, you gave him money to put 17 in the bank or to start a bank account? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now I'm -- now with respect to Howard, he has 20 testified about a car. You, I think, remembered 21 contributing to his purchase of a car? 22 A I don't remember that. 23 Q You don't remember that, okay. 24 A If I did, it wasn't very much. It was not like 25 with George. 151 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Can you confidently say that you didn't buy a 2 brand-new Camaro and pay for 100 percent of it for 3 Howard? 4 A Absolutely. 5 Q And can you say that you did not buy a brand-new 6 Kawasaki motorcycle for Howard? 7 A True, I did not. 8 Q Did Mrs. Zielman, to your knowledge, ever see you 9 massaging either of the boys? 10 A No. 11 Q Did George or Howard ever masturbate you? 12 A No. I would never let them do that. 13 Q And you -- strike that. 14 Did you do that to them? 15 A No, I didn't masturbate them. They must have 16 misunderstood -- mistaken it for getting close to 17 them. 18 Q All right. So -- 19 A But there was no act of masturbation on my part or 20 their part. 21 Q If Howard said that three to four times a day, 22 seven days a week, for 13 years, you mutually 23 masturbated each other and you had an ejaculation, 24 he would be in error on that? 25 A Absolutely. 152 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Q Regarding the person who commented with respect to 2 a complaint to Bishop Madera that you were asked 3 about and then you spoke with Bishop Madera, you 4 said that that was a misunderstanding, correct? 5 A On the part of the family here. 6 Q All right. So -- 7 A Misunderstanding that I was doing anything like 8 that. 9 Q So is that essentially what you told Bishop Madera? 10 A Yeah, I went the next day to talk to him. 11 Q Okay. And that's what you told him? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q That it was a misunderstanding? 14 A It was a misunderstanding. 15 Q And no wrongdoing on your part? 16 A No. 17 Q I -- I have a double negative. 18 Did you tell him there was no 19 wrongdoing on your part with respect to that 20 complaint? 21 A The way it was presented, yes. 22 Q Okay. Thanks. 23 Let me just check my notes to see if 24 I have any other questions, and I doubt that I do. 25 I don't have any more questions. 153 Video Depo of MONSIGNOR ANTHONY HERDEGEN, 6/8/06 1 Thank you. 2 MR. De MARCO: I'm done. 3 MR. KNIGHT: Nothing from me. 4 MR. De MARCO: Okay. 5 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: This ends -- this ends 6 the videotape deposition of Monsignor Anthony 7 Herdegen on June 8, 2006. The time is 1:53 p.m. 8 (Deposition concluded at 1:53 p.m.) 9
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