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Live: Cardinal George Pell prepares to give evidence to child abuse royal commission
ABC News
February 28, 2016
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-29/live-blog-george-pell-evidence-child-abuse-royal-commission-rome/7206436
[with video]
Cardinal George Pell has given evidence to the child abuse royal commission, with his testimony live-streamed to Australia via video link from a Rome hotel.
Australia's most senior Catholic said he was not there to "defend the indefensible", and denied knowing about paedophile priests operating in the Ballarat diocese in the 1970s.
Look back at how our live coverage unfolded.
Key points from Cardinal Pell's evidence today
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Cardinal Pell denied knowing about paedophile priests in the Ballarat diocese when he was a priest and then as an adviser to Bishop Mulkearns in the 1970s and early 80s
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He criticised Bishop Mulkearns for the way paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale was moved from parish to parish, saying it was a "catastrophe" for the victims and for the church
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Cardinal Pell told the royal commission he had no knowledge of Ridsdale's offences at the time
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He also told the hearing the Catholic Church had made enormous mistakes in the past and he was "not here to defend the indefensible"
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Cardinal Pell denied knowing anything about the circumstances surrounding the resignation of Mildura priest Monsignor John Day, who was accused of widespread misconduct with children over 13 years
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He admitted "in light of what we know now", the fact that Monsignor Day was appointed a parish priest in Timboon a year after his resignation was "quite unacceptable"
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In relation to allegations made against a number of Christian Brothers, Cardinal Pell said he knew about "eccentricities" relating to Brother Fitzgerald and about "fleeting references" to Brother Dowlan, but he did not know about the graphic sexual nature of many of the allegations
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With regards to evidence presented to the Cardinal during the session, he conceded there appeared to be a "significant number" of people around Ballarat East who knew about the sexual offending of a number of Brothers during the 1970s
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Cardinal Pell will continue his evidence at 8am AEDT on Tuesday
Pell leaves hotel with short message for abuse survivors
The ABC's Lisa Millar said it was around 3am (local time) when Cardinal Pell left the hotel.
After talking for four hours he still had a few words when asked whether he had a message for the victims. Before being whisked away by a waiting car, he said:.
That also brings this live blog to its end. Thank you for joining me and I hope you're able to continue following our live coverage tomorrow, when Cardinal Pell continues his evidence.
Reaction from abuse survivors
David Ridsdale, who was abused by his uncle Gerald Ridsdale, said he was encouraged to hear Cardinal Pell use words like "catastrophe" and "scandal" in describing the abuse of children by clergy members.
But he said the Catholic Church needed to do more.
Words are one thing, actions are another. We're waiting for the actions which include ensuring not only that those catastrophes never happen again but to be acknowledging and explaining why those catastrophes happened.
Speaking from Ballarat, abuse survivor Tim Lane acknowledge some of the concessions made by Cardinal Pell but said he was still expecting more.
It's all about, still, sort of passing the buck a little bit, 'can't remember' and all those things. But I remember as a four-year-old, I'm 44 now, and that was 40 years ago. Very clear and vivid. These guys were priests in their 20s and that, and they can't recall and can't remember? Well, the whole world ain't that gullible.
It was good that he [Cardinal Pell] admitted some little things, but it's still just little things, that doesn't implicate himself. It could be more.
Knowledge about offending by Christian Brothers
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC continues to ask Cardinal Pell about allegations relating to abuse by Christian Brothers during his time as assistant priest in Ballarat East from 1973.
There are many documents she is referring to relating to evidence from parents, students and teachers that detail accusations against a number of Brothers.
Cardinal Pell has said he knew about "eccentricities" relating to Brother Fitzgerald and about "fleeting references" to Brother Dowlan, but he did not know about the graphic sexual nature of many of the allegations.
Ms Furness puts it to Cardinal Pell that there was was knowledge around Ballarat East about the sexual offending of a number of Brothers.
He agreed there was "some knowledge", but adds:
I would agree that it was known to all the people whom you've mentioned and they do constituent a significant number.
Allegations against other Brothers
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC continues to ask Cardinal Pell about whether he was told about allegations relating to Christian Brothers in the 1970s.
Cardinal Pell says he only knew about rumours regarding Brother Fitzgerald - he denies knowing about allegations against other Brothers.
Ms Furness asked: Monsignor O'Toole also gave evidence of having heard rumours about Brother Fitzgerald taking boys out and going bike riding and ... swimming in the nude? Did that come to your attention?
Cardinal Pell responded:
Yes, I had heard that at the breakup at the end of the year they did swim naked... Once again it was quite common knowledge. Once upon a time, in the schools it was not uncommon at all, it was most unusual at that stage and for us but no impropriorities were ever alleged to me.
Time as assistant priest in Ballarat East from 1973
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC asks Cardinal Pell whether he knew a number of brothers who were teaching at St Alipius in Ballarat in the 1970s.
Ms Furness asks Cardinal Pell if anyone - priest, parishioner, parent, child - came to him with gossip innuendo, rumours, complaints about any of those brothers?
He answers:
There was talk about the eccentricities of brother - is it Fitzgerald? ... But there was no specific accusations.
He went on to describe these "eccentricities" as claims that when some of the boys were leaving, "he'd give them a kiss".
He was very strange, old-fashioned, but a good teacher. There were things like that.
Ms Furness went on: At the time did you see him as kissing the children as sexualised behaviour?
Cardinal Pell: No it was common knowledge and the general conviction was it was harmless enough.
Ms Furness: It was merely showing affection to the children, is that how it was thought?
Cardinal Pell: Yes, he was an older man and it was, I remember being discussed and mentioned to me, and people were aware of it, and they weren't insisting that anything be done.
More questions about Monsignor Day
Cardinal Pell again denies knowing anything about the circumstances surrounding the resignation of Monsignor John Day.
Following his resignation, Monsignor Day was later appointed the parish priest of Timboon.
Ms Furness asks for Cardinal Pell's view on Monsignor Day's reappointment in Timboon. He responded:
In the light of what I know, now, and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it's quite unacceptable.
However, Cardinal Pell denies being told at the time about the circumstances of Monsignor Day's resignation and appointment in Timboon.
Questions over which priests knew what
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC is asking questions relating to what priests knew about allegations of abuse in the 1970s.
She is referring to a number of documents, including a statement by witness BPA, a memo from a superintendent of police to the deputy commissioner and a letter of complaint to Bishop Mulkearns.
In these documents, priests Peter Taffe and Father Torpy, along with Bishop Mulkearns, are noted as having being told about or being made aware of abuse allegations.
Cardinal Pell, who knew all these men, denied knowing about any of these allegations.
Letter of complaint to Ballarat bishop
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC turns to a letter of a complaint to Bishop Mulkearns, who was Bishop of Ballarat during the 1970s and 80s.
Ms Furness: The first paragraph of that letter says: "We the authors of this letter wish to bring to your notice the behaviour of Monsignor Day the parish priest at Mildura. Apparently two months ago as the result of a complaint by a parent of one of the pupils at St Joseph's College, investigations by both the undersigned revealed widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13 years."
Cardinal Pell responds: You can draw no conclusions from this letter about how many people knew what. Apart from that the fact that obviously just wasn't these signatories and it wasn't just Mulkearns.
Ms Furness: Well, with respect, Cardinal, there are a number of conclusions, I suggest to you that can be drawn. Firstly, in relation to the seven people who are mentioned in that dock document as having been abused?
Cardinal Pell: I certainly accept that.
Questions over Baldock statement
Ms Furness is questioning Cardinal Pell about a statement by Gerald Baldock, who was priest in the Mildura area in the early 1970s. Earlier Cardinal Pell said he remembered Father Baldock from this time.
The statement from Father Baldock refers to being a student at Mildura when Monsignor Day was there.
Cardinal Pell again denies knowing about allegations of abuse against Monsignor Day from his talking and socialising with other priests.
Ms Furness: And when discussing church life, inevitably that would involve discussing other priests and their work in the parish.
Cardinal Pell: Well, you might be discussing their work in the parish, you might be discussing their personality, their style, could be discussing a whole variety of things.
Ms Furness: Including, in this case, the sexual proclivities of Monsignor Day?
Cardinal Pell: I very rarely indulged in any such discussions. The points were made to me. I would listen and say - but there wasn't much discussion, certainly in our presbytery, or in any presbytery in which I lived, on these topics.
'Gossip' about Monsignor Day
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC asks Cardinal Pell if he remembers a number of priests from the time he was an assistant priest at Swan Hill from July 1971 to January 1973 - including Father Milliken, Father Peter Taffe, Father Baldock, Father Daniel Torpy.
Ms Furness then asks Cardinal Pell when he first heard about Monsignor John Day - any rumour, gossip or innuendo or complaints about his sexual behaviour with children.
I was aware of the publicity around Monsignor Day. I believe that was '72.
Ms Furness asks what was subject matter of that discussion and gossip. Cardinal Pell responds:
No, I can't, except to say he was accused of some sort of paedophilia activity. I must say in those days, if a priest denied such activity, I was very strongly inclined to accept the denial.
More questions on Ridsdale
Cardinal Pell tells the commission he thinks the way Bishop Mulkearns dealt with paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale was "catastrophic".
I have just re-read the file of Ridsdale. The priest - ex-priest - and the way he was dealt with was a catastrophe. A catastrophe for the victims and a catastrophe for the church. If effective action had been taken earlier, an enormous amount of suffering would've been avoided.
He was given chance after chance after chance, shifted him around and initially at least, trusted excessively in the possible benefits of psychological help. But even there, we now know that Ridsdale, I think in at least one case, was being treated for anxiety, not to help him with his paedophilia.
At this, Ms Furness quips:
He was anxious because he was going to be charged in relation to his paedophilia, wasn't he?
This prompts a bit of laughter from the audience gathered inside the Rome hotel room where Cardinal Pell is. He responds:
How the Church reacted to abuse claims in the 1970s, 80s
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC puts it to Cardinal Pell if it's fair to say that there was a tendency to seek to protect the reputation of the church and its assets in the response to abuse allegations.
Cardinal Pell responds:
At that stage, the instinct was more to protect the institution, the community of the church, from shame. I'm not sure at that stage there was too much concern about protecting assets.
She straight out asks Cardinal Pell if he knew that Bishop Mulkearns was sending paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale off for treatment for sexual offending against children.
Cardinal Pell responds:
No, that's certainly not correct... I wasn't aware of Mulkearns sending anyone off for sexual offending.
Questioning turns to document and episcopal vicar role
Counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC tenders a document, saying it has "only very recently come to light" so apologises for it not having been provided earlier to Cardinal Pell.
It's a note from Cardinal Pell, dated September 20, 1984, to Bishop Mulkearns, who was the Bishop of Ballarat at the time.
Ms Furness:
[The document] begins, 'My Lord, please find enclosed some thoughts on the role of the episcopal vicar for education,' and then with your best wishes and over the page there's your thoughts as to roles and functions.
Pell's early role in Ballarat
Cardinal Pell describes what his role as episcopal vicar for education in Ballarat from 1973 until 1984 involved:
The way I saw the role, the way I will try to describe it... I was the bishop's representative. That meant that I chaired the Ballarat diocese in education commission.
I sometimes represented the bishop at openings and things like that, celebrations and actually most of my time was spent - I was also chairman of the board of small teachers college called the Sacred Heart teachers' college and most of my time... was spent trying to ensure its survival and it did survive as the Aquinas campus now of Australian Catholic university.
'I'm not here to defend the indefensible'
After question from counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness SC, Cardinal Pell responds:
Cardinal Pell: Let me just say this, as an initial clarification, and that is I'm not here to defend the indefensible. The church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those but the church in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I'm not here to defend the indefensible.
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Ms Furness: The question is in relation to the consistency of findings of inquiries in many places in the world in relation to the actions of senior officials in the Catholic Church. Now you've said that that is the case, that there has been a consistency of findings in relation to the response of the church?
Cardinal Pell: Unfortunately, there's a lot of truth. I would also say there are very few countries in the world who have advanced as far as the Catholic Church has in Australia in putting procedures into place nearly 20 years ago. I think that's a matter of record.
Ballarat community members gather to watch Pell's evidence
In this morning's testimony, Cardinal Pell will answer questions about abuse in the Ballarat diocese between the 1960s and 1990s.
A room in Ballarat Town Hall has been made available for the public to watch the webcast of his evidence.
ABC reporter Jess Longbottom said about 30 to 40 people have been arriving to see this testimony.
I was speaking to some women before and they were saying they really want the truth. They feel Cardinal Pell - he was born in Ballarat, he's a Ballarat boy, he was a junior priest here and is now one of the most powerful Catholics in the world. They feel he has a duty to tell the truth and they're hoping for answers today.
Good morning and welcome to our live coverage of today's hearing of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
Australia's most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, will be giving evidence via a video link from Rome.
His evidence starts at 10pm in Rome, so that's 8am AEDT, 7am in Queensland, 7:30am in SA, 6:30am in the NT and 5am in WA.
What will Pell be questioned about?
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He tried to silence a victim
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He ridiculed a victim's complaint of abuse
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He knew offending priests were being moved from parish to parish
Cardinal Pell has consistently denied knowing anything about allegations of paedophile priests during his time in Ballarat and in Melbourne.
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