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Deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony
(continued)
November 23, 2004
[Note: This is Part 2 of a two-part HTML version of the Mahony deposition [see
also Part 1]
that BishopAccountability.org created from a Word
document included with Cardinal
Untruths: Mahony's Testimony in Sex Scandal Clashes with Earlier Statements
and Reality, by Jeffrey Anderson, LA Weekly (12/15/04). See also Mahony
in '80s Banned Two Priests: Deposition Reveals He Ousted Pair Accused of Molestation
from U.S. While He Was Stockton Bishop, by Jean Guccione, LA Times (12/10/04);
and Cardinal
Mahony Accused of Perjury in Sex Abuse Case, by Don Lattin, San Francisco
Chronicle (12/11/04). In his article, Anderson also provided four of the deposition
exhibits: 2,
3,
4,
and 8.
For easier reading, we have formatted the list of exhibits and the list of questions
that Mahony was instructed by his lawyer not to answer. We've displayed the
page numbers in blue and adjusted the spacing, but otherwise this is the text
of the deposition that accompanied Anderson's article.]
0122
1 THE
WITNESS: I'm not sure if the victims ever
2 did go to the police. So I'm not sure whether
our
3 diocese attorney or myself was the first
one who
4 actually made that initial contact.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Was it your policy
or practice or custom or
7 or view that the appropriate thing to do
if you found a
8 priest violated the law in in the manner
of sexually
9 molesting a child, that the appropriate
thing to do as
10 a first step is to report him to the police, prior
to
11 1985?
12 MR.
WOODS: First of all, I object that the
13 question is compound and that it asks custom and
14 practice, right thing to do, and half a dozen other
15 adjectives, all of which are separate issues.
16 MR.
MANLY: All for let me try it again.
17 Q. Did you have a policy, a personal
policy, that
18 employees in your diocese who molested children would
19 be reported to the police as a first step if you
20 believe the allegations to be true?
21 A. I don't think at that time we
had a specific
22 policy.
23 Q. Was that your view prior to
1985?
24 MR.
WOODS: Under any circumstances?
25 MR.
MANLY: No.
0123
1 Q. When you believed
that priests had molested a
2 child?
3 MR.
WOODS: Okay. That's more specific.
4 THE
WITNESS: If I recall, it was in 1984 that
5 the mandated reporting laws of California
began. And
6 it was from that point on that a number
of people
7 became mandated reporters. So we were all
more
8 sensitive to that.
9 BY MR. MANLY:
10 Q. Okay. Well, my question's a
little different.
11 I'm not I'm really not asking a legal question.
12 What
I'm asking you is I'm trying to find
13 you, Roger Mahony's, view as a supervisor of people
who
14 had regular contact with people, educators, teachers,
15 kindergarten teachers, priests who taught CCD, if
you
16 found out one of your employees, lay, religious, or
17 priest, had molested a child, and you believed they
18 molested a child, was it your view prior to 1985 that
19 the first thing you should do is call the police?
20 MR.
WOODS: Object to the form of the question
21 asking for a policy. He hasn't established you
22 haven't established that he had a set policy to do
23 anything. So since your question assumes a policy,
24 which to me means a preestablished course of action
as
25 opposed to a case by case approach, I object.
0124
1 MR.
MANLY: Are you going to object or are you
2 just going to talk?
3 MR.
WOODS: I object. And I'll instruct him
4 not to answer.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Do you think you
should have if you found
7 out, Eminence, that a priest had molested
a child, and
8 you believed it, you thought the right
thing to do was
9 to call the cops, right, prior to 1985?
10 A. That somebody should report
this matter to the
11 police, correct.
12 Q. You you directed your staff
and they
13 understood, because you wanted to protect kids, that
14 what they should do if that person molested a child
is
15 you do exactly what you did with Father Munoz, which
is
16 to call the police; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. At any point prior to
1985 had, that
19 strike that. Move on.
20 Did
you ever learn that there was any policy,
21 instruction, or document issued by the Vatican that
22 required you to keep sexual misconduct of priests
23 secret?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you ever seen such a document?
0125
1 A. Not specifically,
no.
2 Q. How about generally,
have you seen such a
3 document?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Eminence, when did
the California Catholic
6 Conference come into existence?
7 A. I'm sorry. I don't
remember exactly when.
8 Q. Do you remember what
decade?
9 A. I know it was in
existence in the 1970s, but
10 exactly when it began, I just can't recall.
11 Q. Since the 1970s, have there
been annual
12 meetings of the Bishops of California?
13 A. Up until '70 to '75, I don't
know, because I
14 wasn't a Bishop. So I don't know whether they met
or
15 didn't meet.
16 Q. After 1975, did you go to annual
meetings of
17 California Bishops?
18 A. I believe by 1975 we were meeting
annually.
19 Q. When is the first time you recall
California
20 Bishops discussing the issue of the sexual abuse or
21 molestation of children by priests or religious?
22 A. Well, during our time frame
here, which is
23 Fresno and Stockton, I do not recall that topic being
24 discussed.
25 Q. Did somebody keep minutes of
those meetings?
0126
1 A. In the early days,
I'm simply not certain.
2 Later on, when there was a full time executive
3 director, minutes were kept.
4 Q. Was there any policy
or procedure or rule
5 against priests molesting children while
you were a
6 priest of the Diocese of Monterey Fresno?
7 A. Yes. It's called
the Law of God.
8 Q. Was there any specific
policy in canon law or
9 otherwise that you knew about that that
existed
10 during those years?
11 MR.
WOODS: You mean other than, like, the Ten
12 Commandments, stuff like that?
13 MR.
MANLY: You know, if we'd follow the
14 ten Commandments in this case, we'd probably be a
lot
15 better off. But no, I don't mean the Ten Commandments.
16 MR.
WOODS: Are you talking about a
17 specific it's so vague.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. I'm talking about a policy,
procedure,
20 anything like that, that you knew existed while you
21 were a priest in the Diocese of Fresno Monterey.
22 A. Between 1962 and 1967?
23 Q. Yes, Eminence.
24 A. Other than we discussed this
morning, that is
25 what it says in canon law.
0127
1 Q. Okay. So the policy
between those year was
2 canon law; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Is there all
right.
5 When
you became a priest of the Diocese of
6 Fresno up until the time you left, what
was the policy
7 and procedure with regard to the sexual
abuse of
8 children, if any, for the Diocese of Fresno?
9 A. If you recall this
morning, I testified that
10 we did not have any actual specific written policies
or
11 procedures.
12 Q. Okay. Were there any rules,
regulations,
13 instructions, canon law, or otherwise that dealt with
14 the sexual molestation of children by priests during
15 the years you were at Fresno?
16 A. I'm sorry. Could you give me
the list again?
17 He was moving things behind you there.
18 MR.
MANLY: Sure. Why don't you read it back.
19 THE
WITNESS: I got distracted.
20 (The
record was read as follows:
21 "Were
there any rules, regulations,
22 instructions,
canon law, or otherwise
23 that
dealt with the sexual molestation
24 of
children by priests during the years
25 you
were at Fresno?")
0128
1 THE
WITNESS: If I understand the four nouns
2 you used, I think canon law would probably
be the
3 the accurate one.
4 BY MR. MANLY:
5 Q. So canon law was
the only thing you had?
6 A. To the best of my
recollection, yes.
7 Q. And in Fresno, who
was in charge of enforcing
8 the canonical law on that issue?
9 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object to the
10 question as assumes there's some prosecutor or
11 enforcement agent
12 MR.
MANLY: Yeah, it's called the Promoter of
13 Justice.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. There is; right?
16 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object and instruct
17 him not answer.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. Is the Promoter of Justice in
charge of
20 enforcing the canon law?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 All
right. Who was the Promoter of Justice
24 when you were there, do you remember, Eminence, sir,
or
25 do we have to go to the Catholic Directory?
0129
1 A. I simply don't know.
2 Q. Who was the Promoter
of Justice in Stockton
3 when you were there, Eminence?
4 A. I don't recall, because
we had several
5 canonist priests, and I honestly don't
remember which
6 one was Promoter of Justice.
7 Q. If the office of
Promoter of Justice was
8 vacant, who was in charge of enforcing
the canon law as
9 to priests violating children?
10 MR.
WOODS: Is this an expert opinion on his
11 understanding of the canon law or how it was actually
12 done when he was the Bishop?
13 MR.
MANLY: I want to know, actually, how it
14 was done when he was the Bishop.
15 MR.
WOODS: Okay.
16 BY MR. MANLY:
17 Q. You can answer the question,
Your Eminence.
18 A. Well, if there was not an incumbent
Promoter
19 of Justice and there was a case that needed the
20 appointment, then the Bishop could simply appoint
21 someone ad hoc for that case to be the Promoter of
22 Justice.
23 Q. Did the policies you enforced
in Stockton
24 prior to the Collegeville meeting differ in any way
25 let me let me strike that.
0130
1 Did
the way you handled or were supposed to
2 handle strike that.
3 When
you handled the Munoz case and the
4 Camacho case, did you use canon law in
any way in those
5 cases?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. How did you
use it?
8 A. I exercised my prerogative
as the Bishop to
9 terminate their faculties and their assignment.
10 Q. Okay. And you had that absolute
right;
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you had the right you have
the right to
14 suspend the faculties of any priest serving in your
15 diocese; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you have the right, prior
to 1985, as the
18 Bishop of Stockton, to remove any priest serving in
19 your diocese, whether they're religious, diocesan,
20 extern, or otherwise from ministry; correct?
21 A. Well, with cause.
22 Q. Well, molesting kids is cause;
fair?
23 MR.
WOODS: And "from ministry," you mean from
24 ministry in his diocese?
25 MR.
MANLY: That's right. Okay.
0131
1 Q. Right?
2 A. Yes, from ministry
in the diocese of Stockton,
3 correct.
4 Q. Okay. Can you could
you have removed
5 Father O'Grady because he had urges towards
young
6 people, if that had come to your attention?
7 A. No, that was not
the the course of action
8 that would have been taken at that time.
9 Q. My question's a little
different than that.
10 If
if it had come to your attention that
11 Father O'Grady told a your Vicar General that he had
12 sexual urges towards a 9 year old or a 10 year old
or
13 an 11 year old, is that cause to remove him from
14 ministry?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR.
MANLY: Why don't we take a break.
18 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. Time
19 is 1:22.
20 (A
brief recess was taken.)
21 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
22 The time is 1:36.
23 BY MR. MANLY:
24 Q. Eminence, do you remember testifying
in a
25 civil trial in 1998, involving Father O'Grady?
0132
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you testify truthfully
in that case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me show you a
document that's two pages.
5 I'm going to represent it's from your trial
testimony,
6 page 792 and 793. And I'd like you to begin
at line
7 22, and then continuing.
8 MR.
MANLY: If you want me, Counsel, I'll mark
9 where I want him to start.
10 MR.
WOODS: Yeah, but we're going to have the
11 context before and after that in order to have an
12 understanding.
13 MS.
SOLTAN: We brought the entire deposition
14 transcript if you'd like to look at it.
15 MR.
WOODS: Yeah, I'd like to see it.
16 MR.
HENNIGAN: I'm sorry. Is this trial
17 transcript that he said?
18 MR.
MANLY: Trial transcript.
19 MS.
SOLTAN: I'm sorry. That's what I meant
20 to say. I misspoke.
21 MR.
WOODS: I'd like an opportunity to read a
22 little bit of before and after, just to make sure
we're
23 in context.
24 MS.
SOLTAN: We would never misrepresent the
25 status.
0133
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. Would you look at
792 and 793, beginning at
3 line 22.
4 MR.
HENNIGAN: Do you have a copy for us?
5 MR.
MANLY: I just gave you one.
6 MR.
HENNIGAN: You did?
7 MR.
WOODS: So this is his full testimony?
8 MS.
SOLTAN: That is his full testimony. And
9 we're referring with to page 792 and 793
is that
10 correct, John?
11 MR.
MANLY: Yes.
12 MS.
SOLTAN: of the transcript.
13 MR.
WOODS: Do you have an extra copy of this?
14 MS.
SOLTAN: Of the two pages?
15 MR.
WOODS: Yeah.
16 MS.
SOLTAN: Yes, I'm sure I can get that for
17 you.
18 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to read it first, and
19 then I'll give it to you.
20 MS.
SOLTAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Hennigan, were
21 you the person who asked me for another couple of
pages
22 or...
23 MR.
WOODS: I I need them.
24 MS.
SOLTAN: That was you?
25 MR.
WOODS: We'll I'll give this one to the
0134
1 witness so he can read it. I'm reading
it
2 MS.
SOLTAN: Oh, all right. Tell me when
3 you're ready, so you have one.
4 MR.
WOODS: Well, give it to me. I'll give
5 him he can start reading.
6 MS.
SOLTAN: That's a good idea.
7 MR.
WOODS: Just trying to save time.
8 MS.
SOLTAN: I'm so glad you're here.
9 MR.
WOODS: Start up here (indicating) and
10 read down and get the flow.
11
Okay. Do you want to mark these pages as an
12 exhibit?
13 MR.
MANLY: Yeah, next in order.
14 (Plaintiffs'
Exhibits 7 and 8 were
15
marked for identification.)
16 BY MR. MANLY:
17 Q. Cardinal, beginning at line
22 on page 792,
18 can you read the testimony into the record, please?
19 MR.
WOODS: The highlighted testimony?
20 MR.
MANLY: Well, I don't think it's I
21 don't know if it's
22 I
can't see if it's highlighted on his page,
23 but it begins at line 22, beginning, question, "Was
24 during a period of time."
25 THE
WITNESS: Who is Q?
0135
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. That's Mr. Diepenbrock,
the diocese attorney.
3 A. Question
4 Q. He's also a character
in James Bond, but we'll
5 save you the go ahead.
6 A. "Was during
a period of time you
7 were
the Bishop of Stockton, were there
8 any
other priests that were involved in
9 any
kind of sexual misconduct with children?
10
"Mr. Drivon: Your honor, that calls
11 for
speculation.
12
"The Court: If the witness has
13 personal
knowledge, he can answer. But
14 I
will ask you not to speculate, Cardinal.
15
"The Witness: Again, during my
16 period
of time, I cannot recall another
17 Case.
18
"Mr. Diepenbrock: Question: Well,
19 if
there had been any other cases
20 when
you were the Bishop of Stockton,
21 you
certainly would have heard about it,
22 wouldn't you?
23
"Answer: "Oh, yes. But I can't
24 recall
another case.
25
"Question: "Were there any other
0136
1 cases.
2
"Answer: Not that I know of.
3
"Question: This was the only one?
4
"Answer: Yes."
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Okay. And you gave
that testimony on June
7 12th, '98, Your Eminence?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And is that
testimony truthful?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You don't mention Father Camacho
or
12 Father Munoz, do you?
13 A. I do not.
14 Q. But Father Camacho and Father
Munoz molested
15 children while you were the Bishop of Stockton;
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have an explanation for
that?
19 A. This trial was some 13 years
after I had left
20 the Diocese of Stockton. We had many events in the
21 Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and I was very preoccupied.
22 We had the visit of the Holy Father. We had the
23 earthquakes. We had riots. We had everything. And
I
24 simply did not remember everything that happened many
25 years ago in Stockton.
0137
1 Q. So your testimony
is you forgot that
2 Father Camacho and Father Munoz molested
children while
3 you were the Bishop; is that accurate?
4 A. That is accurate.
5 Q. Okay. Do you remember
testifying about this
6 issue in your deposition in that case?
7 A. The deposition prior
to the trial?
8 Q. Yes. Yes, sir, about
a year before.
9 A. I actually don't
recall.
10 Q. Do you know if that question
was asked in your
11 deposition?
12 A. Again, I don't recall whether
it was or not.
13 Q. Were you you were not attempting
to mislead
14 the jury; is that right?
15 A. On the contrary.
16 Q. So you forgot about your the
police
17 investigation of your priests, Father Camacho and
18 Father Munoz; is that your testimony?
19 A. I had forgotten about those
incidents.
20 Q. Okay. Prior to was Vicar General
Cain in
21 the courtroom when you testified?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Did at any point Vicar General
Cain come to
24 you and remind you that this was incorrect?
25 A. No.
0138
1 Q. When did you first
remember that Camacho and
2 Munoz cases?
3 A. I don't recall exactly.
But at some point I
4 was given all the files involving those
three priests.
5 Q. Are there any other
priests you've forgotten
6 about, you think, or just those two?
7 A. Just those two.
8 Q. Eminence, do you
remember in Fresno, a priest
9 molesting mentally ill people?
10 MR.
WOODS: Before 1985?
11 MR.
MANLY: Yeah.
12 THE
WITNESS: There was a case, but I don't
13 recall the time frame.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. Do you remember a priest molesting
mentally
16 ill people when you were the Bishop of Fresno I'm
17 sorry, when you were the Auxiliary Bishop in Fresno?
18 A. I don't recall the time period
when that
19 actually occurred.
20 Q. Do you recall at any point becoming
aware of a
21 priest sexually exploiting mentally ill people in
22 Fresno?
23 A. I remember at some point.
24 Q. Okay. When did you learn that?
25 A. I honestly don't recall.
0139
1 Q. Do you remember what
decade?
2 MR.
WOODS: I'm sorry?
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Do you remember what
decade?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. Okay. Let me read
to you a portion of your
7 deposition testimony in 1978. I'd be happy
to show it
8 to you after I read it.
9 A. Excuse me. What year?
10 Q. I'm, sorry 1980 1997?
11 MR.
WOODS: Can we have the transcript?
12 MR.
MANLY: Yeah. I'll show it to you when
13 I'm done.
14 THE
WITNESS: Excuse me. 1997?
15 MR.
MANLY: Yes, Eminence.
16 MR.
WOODS: This is the transcript in the?
17 BY MR. MANLY:
18 Q. In the Howard case.
19 Beginning
at page 73, line 1:
20 "Okay.
And you knew Father O'Grady
21 was
a priest of the diocese over whom
22 you
had control, at least as it pertains
23 to
his faculties and assignments?
24
"Answer: "Yes.
25
"And if you had known he
0140
1 admitted
to having criminal sexual
2 contact
with a 9 year old boy, you
3 would
have not placed him in the parish
4 at
St. Andrews?
5
"Answer: Had I known all of what's
6 in
this report, I probably would have
7 taken
him out of any assignment and
8 sent
him off for a full evaluation
9 and
some determination to be made.
10 He
would never have been transferred,
11 especially to
a place where the pastor
12 who
was there, wasn't there sometimes and
13 not
sometimes, never, never, never
14 done
it."
15 Okay.
Do you want to see the testimony?
16 MS.
SOLTAN: What page is that?
17 MR.
MANLY: 73 and 74.
18 MR.
WOODS: We'll wait for the question, and
19 we may need to see the rest.
20 BY MR. MANLY:
21 Q. My question is do you remember
giving that
22 testimony?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. My question is: Where would
you have sent him
25 off to treatment to if you didn't know treatment
0141
1 existed?
2 A. Well, at this time,
I probably would have
3 consulted with the Bishops' conference
to find a place.
4 There were a number of psychological places
in
5 California that dealt with psychological
problems, in
6 the Bay area.
7 Q. What was he going
to be treated for?
8 A. I believe to be evaluated.
9 Q. Well, you said, "Send
him off for a full
10 evaluation." Okay?
11 What
was he going to be evaluated for?
12 A. He would be evaluated for whatever
the
13 allegation was.
14 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document,
Eminence.
15 I'll show you the Latin version and the English
16 translation.
17 MR.
WOODS: Are you going to mark them?
18 MR.
MANLY: Yeah. We'll mark them as
19 MS.
SOLTAN: Are we at 9 and 10?
20 MR.
MANLY: Why don't we mark them as 9 and
21 10.
22 MR.
WOODS: Go ahead and mark them so when
23 they arrive here, they're marked. Because we're losing
24 stuff left and right.
25 MS.
SOLTAN: Exhibit 9 is going to be the
0142
1 Latin version, and Exhibit 10 is going
to be the
2 translation. This is the 1962 document.
Is that what
3 we're calling this?
4 MR.
MANLY: Yeah.
5 MS.
SOLTAN: The 1962
6 MR.
MANLY: 1962 instruction.
7 (Plaintiffs'
Exhibits 9 and 10 were
8 marked
for identification.)
9 MS.
SOLTAN: Here you go, Cardinal.
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Have you ever seen that document
before,
12 Your Eminence?
13 MR.
WOODS: Do you have a copy for me?
14 MS.
SOLTAN: I beg your pardon?
15 MR.
WOODS: Copy for me?
16 MR.
MANLY: Oh, I'm sorry.
17 MS.
SOLTAN: It's in reverse order. The Latin
18 is at the back.
19 MR.
WOODS: Okay. So the English is 10, and
20 the Latin is 9.
21 And
your representation is that one is the
22 correct translation of the other?
23 MR.
MANLY: Right.
24 MR.
WOODS: And who translated 10?
25 MS.
SOLTAN: I think the document reflects it.
0143
1 MR.
WOODS: I'm sorry. The document what?
2 MS.
SOLTAN: I think the document reflects the
3 name of the translator and what it is a
translation of.
4 MR.
WOODS: Can you show that to me?
5 MS.
SOLTAN: You might look at the very end,
6 where it's indicated. No. Is that is that
wrong?
7 Is that the author? I'm sorry. I misspoke.
8 MR.
MANLY: I'll represent to you that's an
9 accurate translation. You can take issue
with it if
10 you want to.
11 MR.
WOODS: Is this the Doyle translation?
12 MR.
MANLY: I'll represent it's an accurate
13 translation.
14 Q. Have you ever seen anything
like that
15 document, Your Eminence?
16 MR.
HENNIGAN: What would be the basis upon
17 which you represent it's an accurate translation?
18 MR.
MANLY: That it's been examined by a Latin
19 scholar, and I've been told it's an accurate
20 translation.
21 MS.
SOLTAN: You can reserve all rights,
22 Counsel. We have no problem. If you find that it
23 isn't an accurate translation, you can certainly do
24 whatever you think is appropriate.
25 MR.
WOODS: I just want to identify a source.
0144
1 This is the Doyle translation of the 1962
instruction?
2 MR.
MANLY: No, I'm not saying that.
3 MR.
HENNIGAN: Is it not that, or is it
4 MR.
MANLY: I don't I don't know that it's
5 him. I know it's a Latin scholar.
6 MR.
WOODS: Okay. Well, it looks very
7 similar. And I don't proclaim
8 MR.
MANLY: Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I
9 don't know.
10 MR.
WOODS: that I can go through 50 pages
11 and tell you. But it looks very similar to one that
he
12 made. Now, it may just be the format is the same.
I
13 can't tell for sure.
14 MS.
SOLTAN: Well, if you prefer, the Cardinal
15 perhaps could translate paragraph 73 from the Latin
to
16 English for us on the record. Would you prefer that?
17 MR.
MANLY: Why don't you do that, Cardinal?
18 MR.
WOODS: I'm not sure that the Cardinal is
19 qualified to translate; although I'm sure he knows
20 quite a bit of Latin.
21 BY MR. MANLY:
22 Q. Have you ever all I'm trying
to
23 establish I'm not going to ask you about the
24 document yet.
25 Have
you ever seen anything like that before?
0145
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did you see
it for the first time?
3 A. I believe in the
last year or so this document
4 came to my attention.
5 Q. Okay. So your testimony
is your sworn
6 testimony is you've never seen anything
like that
7 document, that instruction, prior to 2003?
8 MR.
WOODS: I object to the vague expression,
9 "something like that." I mean,
this is the
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Did you ever see that instruction
before 2003,
12 Your Eminence?
13 MR.
WOODS: This particular one, crimine
14 sollictationis?
15 MR.
MANLY: That's right.
16 MR.
WOODS: Have you seen this one before?
17 MR.
MANLY: That's right.
18 MR.
WOODS: Okay.
19 THE
WITNESS: I simply don't recall seeing
20 this ever before.
21 BY MR. MANLY:
22 Q. Okay. Do you know what it says
about
23 pedophilia, Eminence?
24 A. No, not specifically.
25 MS.
SOLTAN: Page 22.
0146
1 MR.
WOODS: Page 22 of the translation,
2 Exhibit 10? The pages aren't numbered.
3 MS.
SOLTAN: Actually, if you go to the very
4 end of the translated document, it's the
last two full
5 pages of the document, starting with what
is entitled
6 "Title IV," in Roman numerals,
and "Title V." And
7 under the section entitled "The Worst
Crime" is the
8 section that we're talking about.
9 MR.
HENNIGAN: And where is that? Is there a
10 numbered paragraph?
11 MS.
SOLTAN: The second second to the last
12 page of the document in English, before the appendix.
13 MR.
WOODS: Before the appendix.
14 MR.
HENNIGAN: Is there a paragraph number?
15 MS.
SOLTAN: Paragraph 71, 72, 73 is what
16 we're directing inviting your attention to.
17 MR.
WOODS: Paragraph 71.
18 MS.
SOLTAN: Would you like me to find it for
19 you?
20 MR.
WOODS: Yeah. Oh, page 22 at the top.
21 Okay. The Cardinal's got it.
22 MS.
SOLTAN: Here you are.
23 Can
I find it for you?
24 MR.
HENNIGAN: I found it.
25 MS.
SOLTAN: Cardinal, may I assist you?
0147
1 THE
WITNESS: Okay. You're looking at
2 paragraph 73?
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Yes.
5 MR.
WOODS: So we should just look at 73?
6 MR.
MANLY: Right.
7 MS.
SOLTAN: No. It's
8 MR.
MANLY: 66.
9 MR.
WOODS: 66?
10 MR.
MANLY: No. 66.
11 MR.
WOODS: 66.
12 MR.
MANLY: Right.
13 Q. "Whenever an Ordinary immediately
accepts
14 a denunciation of the crime of
solicitation,
15 he should not omit telling this
to the Holy
16 Office."
17 Do
you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Prior to 1985, did you ever
report a priest to
20 the Holy Office of the Vatican for abusing a child?
21 A. Well, that's a different question
than
22 paragraph 66.
23 Q. My question stands.
24 Did
you?
25 A. No.
0148
1 MR.
HENNIGAN: No, you don't get to do that.
2 You don't get to throw in paragraph 66
3 MR.
MANLY: Did you
4 MR.
HENNIGAN: and act like
5 MR.
MANLY: Okay. Fine.
6 Q. Forget paragraph
66 exists.
7 Did
you ever report to the Holy Office or to
8 any official of the Vatican, prior to 1985,
that a
9 priest had molested a child?
10 A. Aside from this document?
11 Q. Right.
12 A. No, not to the best my recollection.
13 Q. Okay. Can you read paragraph
73 into the
14 record?
15 MR.
HENNIGAN: Look, without knowing what this
16 document is, if you want it read into the record,
you
17 read it.
18 MR.
MANLY: Okay. I'll read it into the
19 record.
20 "To
have the worst crime, for the penal
21 effects, one must do the equivalent
of the
22 following: Any obscene, external
act,
23 gravely sinful, perpetrated in
any way by a
24 cleric or attempted by him with
youths of
25 either sex with brute animals (bestiality
)."
0149
1 MR.
WOODS: "Or with brute animals."
2 BY MR. MANLY:
3 Q. Have you ever seen
that before, Eminence?
4 MR.
WOODS: Have you seen this?
5 MR.
MANLY: That paragraph.
6 MR.
WOODS: In this document?
7 MR.
MANLY: Right.
8 THE
WITNESS: I'm not sure which translation I
9 had seen before. I had seen this document
in in
10 Latin, and I think maybe a translation. I'm not sure
I
11 have seen this translation of it.
12 BY MR. MANLY:
13 Q. Did you know prior to 1985 that
that
14 instruction existed on that issue?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document
and
17 paragraph 70, let me read that into the record.
18 "All
these official communications shall
19 always be made under the secret
of the Holy
20 Office. And since they concern
the common
21 good of the church to the greatest
degree,
22 the precept of doing these things
obliges
23 under serious sin (subgravi),"
G R A V I.
24 What
is the secret of the Holy Office,
25 Your Eminence?
0150
1 A. Well, if you have
to go up to paragraph 66
2 to understand the context of of those paragraphs.
3 It all has to do with solicitation and
confession.
4 Q. Do you know if Father
O'Grady ever solicited
5 sex in the confessional?
6 A. No, I do not.
7 Q. Prior to 1985, did
you ever have occasion to
8 deal with a priest who solicited sex in
the
9 confessional?
10 A. Prior to 1985, no, I can't recall
any case.
11 Q. Let me show you a document entitled
"Gravoria
12 Delicta: The Apostolic Letter, M.P." by Brian
Edward
13 Ferme.
14 Do
you know Dr. Ferme?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Who is he?
17 A. He is a priest, I think from
England, who is a
18 canon lawyer.
19 Q. Is he the dean of the canon
law school at
20 Catholic University of America?
21 A. I believe presently he is.
22 Q. Okay. Is he an extremist, as
far as you know,
23 you know, crazy in any way?
24 MR.
WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
25 to answer.
0151
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. You said he's a he's
a priest in communion
3 with Rome; correct, as far as you know?
4 A. As far as I know.
5 Q. Okay. Have you ever
known him to do anything
6 heretical or or out of the ordinary that
would cause
7 you to to question his competence as a
canon lawyer
8 and a priest?
9 A. I have so little
contact with Father Ferme, I
10 simply couldn't answer your question.
11 Q. Okay. Can you look at Page 368,
starting
12 with
13 MR.
WOODS: You haven't given it to us yet.
14 MR.
MANLY: I will.
15 Q. starting with, "We do Know"?
16 MR.
WOODS: Is this Exhibit 11 now?
17 MR.
MANLY: Yes.
18 THE
WITNESS: So this is not these other
19 documents now?
20 MR.
MANLY: That is a new exhibit, right.
21 MR.
WOODS: So this what do we have here?
22 Two documents? The first one, "Il Processo,"
that's
23 Exhibit 11.
24 MR.
MANLY: That's that's the journal, and
25 this is an article out of the journal. I don't know
0152
1 what you've got on the pad there.
2 MR.
WOODS: And the article by Father Doyle is
3 Exhibit 12?
4 MR.
MANLY: No. That's that's wrong. I
5 didn't mean to give that to you. I'm sorry.
6 MR.
WOODS: Okay. So Exhibit 11 is a journal
7 cover and a title page, and then it starts
on Page 365
8 with an article.
9 (Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 11 was marked for
10
identification.)
11 MR.
WOODS: Do you want him to read this
12 article?
13 MS.
SOLTAN: Page 368, please.
14 MR.
WOODS: Page what?
15 MR.
MANLY: 368.
16 MS.
SOLTAN: 368, last full paragraph.
17 MR.
WOODS: 368. Which paragraph?
18 MS.
SOLTAN: Last full paragraph.
19 MR.
WOODS: We do not know?
20 MR.
MANLY: Beginning "We do know."
21 MR.
WOODS: Oh, "We do know."
22 MR.
MANLY: Right.
23 MR.
WOODS: Okay. So you go ahead and read
24 it, and the
25 MR.
MANLY: No. I want the Cardinal to read
0153
1 it.
2 MR.
WOODS: Out loud?
3 MR.
MANLY: Right.
4 MR.
HENNIGAN: No.
5 MR.
MANLY: Why not?
6 MR.
HENNIGAN: It's not his document. You're
7 not going to put these word in his mouth.
If you want
8 to read them
9 MR.
MANLY: All right.
10 MS.
SOLTAN: you read them.
11 MR.
MANLY: "We do know that in 1962,
12 the
Holy Office issued an instruction,
13 Crimen Sollicitantionis.
As the title
14 suggests, these
norms specifically
15 concerned
the delict of solicitation
16 in
order to commit a sin against the
17 sixth
commandment on the occasion of
18 confession. The
instruction was sent
19 to
all the patriarchs, archbishops,
20 Bishops,
and other ordinaries and was
21 based
on the general norm found in
22 Canon
247, Section 2.
23
"The CDF could directly judge
24 this
delict though if the Ordinary
25 judged
the case, he had to proceed
0154
1 according
to the instruction and had
2 to
inform the congregation of the result.
3
"While the instruction dealt
4 specifically
with the solicitation
5 and
the procedural norms to be applied
6 in
judging this crime, the fifth
7 chapter
stated that the same norms
8 were
also be observed for crimen
9 pessimum,
Article 71, which was also
10 understood
to included paedophilia."
11 Do
you see that, Cardinal?
12 THE
WITNESS: Yes. I'm trying to find out the
13 date of this article.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. It's 2004, I believe.
16 A. Do you see where that says 2004?
17 Q. 2003.
18 MS.
SOLTAN: I have a document with a
19 copyright of 2003, Cardinal.
20 MR.
WOODS: 2003?
21 MS.
SOLTAN: 2003.
22 THE
WITNESS: 2003?
23 MS.
SOLTAN: Yes.
24 BY MR. MANLY:
25 Q. So my question to you is: Did
you prior to
0155
1 1985, did you know that this instruction
existed for
2 handling cases of solicitation that involved
3 pedophilia?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Did you ever have
a Bishop or anybody else
6 tell you that this instruction existed?
7 A. No, not except the
last year or so.
8 Q. Do you accept, Eminence,
based on this
9 article, given Mr. Ferme is the head of
canon law at
10 Catholic University, that his statement is accurate?
11 Or do you take issue with it?
12 MR.
WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
13 an expert opinion. Instruct the witness not to answer.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15
Q. Let's go back to your deposition in 1997 and
16 let me read to you from Page 89. I'd be happy to show
17 it to you. Actually, take that back, Page 88,
18 beginning at line
19 MR. HENNIGAN: Are we going to see a copy of
20 it?
21 MR. MANLY: Yeah. I'm going to read it,
22 though, so he can hear it.
23 MR. WOODS: Yeah. Is this the Howard trial or
24 depo?
25 MR. MANLY: Deposition.
0156
1 MR. WOODS: And page?
2 MR. HENNIGAN: We don't have that.
3 MR. WOODS: I've got it right here.
4 Is this the trial?
5 MR. MANLY: It's no. It's the deposition.
6 MR. HENNIGAN: We don't have it.
7 MR. WOODS: We don't have it.
8 MR. MANLY: Okay. I'd be happy to share it
9 with you.
10 MR. HENNIGAN: It would be efficient if we
11 could look at it in context.
12 MS. SOLTAN: Is that what I have?
13 MR. MANLY: Yeah. It's the '97
14 MR. WOODS: Oh, this is the deposition?
15 MR. MANLY: Yeah.
16 MR. WOODS: Oh, okay. Okay. I've got it.
17 This is I thought this was the trial.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. So go to Page 88.
20 MR. WOODS: Page 88.
21 MR. MANLY: Actually, I think it would be
22 easier just for him to read it into the record.
23 MR. WOODS: No, no. Go ahead.
24 MR. MANLY: No, I'd like him to read it.
25 MR. WOODS: Okay. Where do you want him to
0157
1 read? From where to read to yourself.
2 MR. MANLY: Line 24:
3 "And are you aware there has been a
4 practice that has at least been noted, where
5 they were moved because there was interest
6 to avoid scandal in the church."
7 And then his answer beginning, "My
8 understanding."
9 MR. WOODS: Who is "they"?
10 MR. MANLY: Do you want to start from the
11 prior question? That's fine.
12 Let me know when you're done.
13 MR. WOODS: We're down to 89, line 17. Is
14 that where you want us to stop?
15 MR. MANLY: Yep.
16 MR. WOODS: That's where the highlighting
17 stops.
18 MR. MANLY: That's what I that's what I
19 want him to read.
20 Q. So beginning at line 24, "And are you aware."
21 A. Okay. So we're on Page 88, line which
22 which line do you want me
23 Q. It's it's confusing, because it's the
24 pages
25 A. Two pages are...
0158
1 Q. Yeah. So beginning at line 24, saying, "And
2 are you aware there has been a practice that has at
3 least been noted, where they were moved because"
4 A. Oh, all right.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. WOODS: So what's the question?
7 MR. MANLY: I want him to read it.
8 MR. WOODS: We're not going to do that.
9 MR. MANLY: He won't read it into the record,
10 his own testimony?
11 MR. WOODS: You read it.
12 MR. MANLY: Okay.
13 "Are you aware there's been a
14 practice that has at least been
15 noted, where they were moved because
16 there was an interest to avoid
17 scandal in the church.
18 "Answer: My understanding in
19 those earlier years was that church
20 authorities were unaware, really,
21 of the extent of this disease and
22 illness, and as was psychology and
23 psychiatry, actually, and that what
24 we have come to know today has come
25 more through evolution. And it's
0159
1 like alcoholism among priests, it
2 was considered to be some kind of
3 a moral thing; and then if you
4 decided not to drink, you wouldn't
5 drink. And so treatment in that,
6 it was simply not part of the reality
7 of the time. And so I think it's why
8 evolution we have come to realize
9 today what we did not know as clearly
10 in those earlier years.
11 "But my only recollection as
12 a priest, or anyone, since ordination
13 was that we had a case in Fresno
14 when I was there of a priest
15 chaplain at a state hospital of
16 adults, though this was not children,
17 who was accused of molesting some
18 of these they were mentally retarded.
19 "And so we pulled him out
20 immediately and sent him I can't
21 recall where for evaluation.
22 But he was never allowed to serve
23 again, in fact, left the priesthood.
24 In fact, he went to jail eventually,
25 I believe, and left the priesthood.
0160
1 "But my only recollection of
2 dealing with one of those cases in
3 those years is we didn't there
4 was no tolerance for this.
5 "Question: Actually, your answer
6 in part leads me to my next question.
7 And that is: Before 1984, as in the
8 capacity of Bishop or Auxiliary Bishop,
9 had you ever had cause or occasion
10 to deal with the issue of a priest
11 of a diocese being accused of the
12 molestation of a child or parishioner.
13 "Answer: Not of a child, although
14 one could, I believe, say at
15 Porterville State Hospital, whether
16 chronologically older, they are
17 mentally, maybe, children. But that
18 was the only case I was aware of
19 And we pulled him out of there immediately."
20 Q. Did you testify truthfully in that deposition,
21 Cardinal?
22 THE WITNESS: With the knowledge I had at the
23 time, yes.
24 MR. MANLY: I'll turn it over to Mr. Simons.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Actually, I would like to just
0161
1 follow up with a few things, if I may. Is that all
2 right?
3 MR. SIMONS: That's fine with me.
4 MS. SOLTAN: Apparently, the hardest part of
5 this is going to be figuring out the microphone.
6
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. SOLTAN:
9 Q. Cardinal, you were at the diocese of
10 Fresno Monterey, which became the diocese of Fresno and
11 Monterey, from 1962 until 1980; correct? I understand
12 that correctly, yes?
13 A. 1962 to 1980, correct.
14 Q. Right. You were incardinated in 1962 and
15 remained incardinated at that diocese until you left to
16 go to Stockton?
17 A. Yes, that would be correct.
18 Q. And during that time period, you held just
19 about every office, didn't you? I mean, you were a
20 pastor and an administrator; that's correct?
21 MR. WOODS: Okay. I'm going to object.
22 There's several questions pending. Which one do you
23 want him to answer?
24 MS. SOLTAN: Well, let me do it this way,
25 because I'm trying to just expedite a little bit.
0162
1 Q. I understood that you were a pastor, you were
2 an administrator, you were a Vicar General, were you an
3 Auxiliary Bishop, you were a Chancellor. Did I did
4 I hit them all?
5 A. I think, except for director of
6 Catholic Charities.
7 Q. And director of Catholic Charities.
8 So you had a wide range of roles during the
9 time that you were at Fresno; yes?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Okay. Did any of those roles involve
12 establishing policy on behalf of the diocese with
13 regard to the protection of children?
14 MR. WOODS: Object to the word "involve."
15 Does that mean occur?
16 BY MS. SOLTAN:
17 Q. Do you understand what I mean by the word
18 "involve"?
19 A. Actually, I'm more confused what you mean by
20 "developing policies." Are you talking about written
21 handbooks?
22 Q. No. I'm talking about did you feel that
23 you it was one of your responsibilities to protect
24 the children of the diocese in any of those roles?
25 A. Well, obviously, as a priest, in any role
0163
1 you're anxious to protect everybody.
2 Q. Right. And that it also involved protecting
3 children, of course?
4 A. I'll wait till there there's a lot of
5 movement goes on over there behind you, and I find it
6 very distracting.
7 MR. WOODS: Could everyone sit down, please?
8 MS. SLOAN: My back hurts.
9 MR. WOODS: Could you stand over there, then,
10 please.
11 THE WITNESS: See, what happens is you're
12 right behind the person moving. And it's
13 MS. SLOAN: I wasn't moving until your lawyer
14 asked me to. I'm sorry.
15 MR. WOODS: I'm finding it distracting. I'm
16 sorry.
17 THE WITNESS: It would be very helpful if over
18 by that wall, then I wouldn't in my frame of view, I
19 wouldn't have anyone moving in the background.
20 MS. SOLTAN: Would you like me to move to the
21 other side of the camera? Would that help?
22 MR. WOODS: No. You're fine. You're fine
23 now.
24 MS. SOLTAN: I forgot my question. Can we
25 have that back, please?
0164
1 (The record was read as follows:
2 "And that it also involved protecting
3 children, of course?")
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, protecting everyone.
5 BY MS. SOLTAN:
6 Q. Is it true to say that that was true of every
7 single one of those roles that you had at the Diocese
8 of Fresno?
9 A. Well, there would be various emphasis
10 according to the specific job at hand.
11 Q. Okay. Could you please describe for me, in
12 your capacity as a priest, what did you do to protect
13 children at the diocese.
14 A. Well, as priests, we were very concerned with
15 making sure that parents were taking care of their
16 children and they were being properly nourished and
17 fed, and all the other obligations that that you
18 would have.
19 Q. What about physical abuse, if you saw evidence
20 of physical abuse, would you have done something?
21 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
22 an opinion.
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. Well, you indicated that you looked to see if
25 they were nourished and fed.
0165
1 Did you also look to see if they were being
2 beaten, for example?
3 A. Well, in the parishes I served, there were a
4 lot of poor people. And so a lot of them couldn't
5 afford food and that. So we were always concerned to
6 make sure that they had adequate food, or whatever
7 clothing, whatever they needed.
8 Q. Did you also look for signs of physical abuse,
9 like if they were being beaten, for example?
10 A. I did not personally look for abuse, no.
11 Q. Why not?
12 MR. WOODS: Are you saying is it a conscious
13 thing, I'm looking for abuse? Is that what
14 MS. SOLTAN: Absolutely.
15 MR. WOODS: Okay.
16 MS. SOLTAN: Cardinal, I
17 MR. WOODS: A a conscious awareness at that
18 time?
19 MS. SOLTAN: That's right.
20 MR. WOODS: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Probably not conscious, but
22 there.
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. If you had seen evidence of physical abuse of
25 a child in your parish or where where you were,
0166
1 would you have done something about it?
2 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
3 opinion. Instruct the witness not to answer.
4 BY MS. SOLTAN:
5 Q. Are you taking the advice of your counsel,
6 sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During the time that you were a priest
9 actually, in any capacity at Fresno, did you ever have
10 occasion to see what you considered to be a possibility
11 of physical abuse of a child of any kind?
12 A. No, I simply don't recall anything specific.
13 Q. All right. Did you view, in in all of your
14 various roles during at Fresno, did you supervise
15 other employees of the diocese?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would that include other priests?
18 A. At times, yes.
19 Q. And lay employees as well?
20 A. Yes, at times.
21 Q. Is it fair to say that you had a supervisory
22 role in every single one of your capacities while you
23 were working at Fresno?
24 A. Some to some extent.
25 Q. All right. Did you have more of a supervisory
0167
1 capacity as you went up the ranks, if you will? I
2 don't know if that's the correct phrase, but advanced
3 in the hierarchy of the church. Did your role of
4 supervision increase?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. Okay. In terms of so you felt that you had
7 a consistent role, requiring you to supervise the
8 employees of the diocese from the time you were a
9 priest all the way until the time you were a Bishop?
10 A. Well, "supervise" means a lot of things.
11 Q. That that's my next question.
12 What does that mean to you? What did you
13 understand that to mean when you were there?
14 MR. WOODS: In each role? Take each role and
15 explain? Okay.
16 So starting as a parish priest, each of the
17 roles.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, we'll go back to my first
19 assignment. When I was first ordained, I was at
20 St. John's Cathedral. And most of my ministry was
21 there in the parish, but also taking care of two big
22 hospitals, the county hospital and the community
23 hospital. So we were dealing primarily with trauma
24 patients and people ill, and ministering to the sick,
25 primarily, in those first four month.
0168
1 And the next two years, I was in Washington,
2 D.C., so I wasn't in the diocese.
3 BY MS. SOLTAN:
4 Q. Before you go on, sir, let me ask you: Were
5 the employees of the hospital employees of the diocese?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were any of the employees of the hospital
8 employees of the diocese?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were any procedures taken when when you
11 say, then, you were working in connection with the
12 hospital, what does that mean? What were you doing?
13 A. That means when Catholic patients were there,
14 we visited them; when there was an accident and someone
15 needed the anointing of the sick, the sacrament, then
16 we went to anoint them; we had to oftentimes comfort
17 families of sick and injured persons and, quite
18 frequently, of people who had died in an accident or an
19 injury.
20 Q. Okay. So I started out this question in terms
21 of your supervision. And you talked about the
22 hospital.
23 Were you supervising someone at the hospital?
24 A. No. But you asked me what I did in each of
25 the roles I had in the diocese. So I just started at
0169
1 the beginning.
2 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. Great.
3 MR. WOODS: She wants to know what your
4 supervisory
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. WOODS: role was in each job.
7 THE WITNESS: I know.
8 BY MS. SOLTAN:
9 Q. Okay. So when you were at St. John's, sir,
10 what was your supervisory role?
11 A. Minimal. I was there for four months.
12 Q. Okay. And your position, then, was a a
13 priest? That's the best
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. With regard to two things now, one is
16 the protection of children and the other is the
17 possible of sexual misconduct of priests, could you
18 please indicate to me what you did to ensure, number
19 one, that children were protected when you were a
20 priest at St. John's. What did you do?
21 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object that he has
22 any obligation to ensure or guarantee or affirmatively
23 protect anybody at any time, okay, as a matter of legal
24 obligation. That's not what you mean, I don't think.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Well, I'm not really sure what
0170
1 your comments are, because this is an oral argument.
2 So, I mean, is that an objection of some nature?
3 MR. WOODS: Yeah. Are you asking for an
4 expert opinion?
5 MS. SOLTAN: No. I'm asking for this
6 gentleman's factual recollection
7 MR. WOODS: Okay.
8 MS. SOLTAN: of what he did to supervise
9 people at St. John's in the interest of protecting
10 children.
11 Q. Which you indicated to me to be something that
12 you felt was your responsibility consistently in every
13 position you had.
14 MR. WOODS: Well, you're asking for a
15 conscious effort, something he did consciously at that
16 point in time to protect children. Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: I I'm confused by your
18 question. I'm sorry. During those four months
19 BY MS. SOLTAN:
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I celebrated masses and weekdays and heard
22 confessions, said mass on Sundays, preached, and helped
23 take care of the Catholic patients at two hospitals. I
24 really didn't have any supervisory role
25 Q. Well, did you have a
0171
1 A. of people.
2 Q. Did you have a parish secretary?
3 A. The parish had a parish secretary.
4 Q. Did she work for you?
5 A. Worked for the pastor, actually.
6 Q. Was that you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Did anyone work under you?
9 A. Not really. I was only there four months,
10 brand new priest.
11 Q. All right. So you didn't you believe that
during the time you were at St. Johns, you didn't
13 supervise anyone?
14 A. I can't recall during those
four brief months.
15 This is 1962. I simply can't recall. That wasn't my
16 job.
17 Q. Okay. Did you have any instruction
during the
18 time that you were a priest at St. John's from anyone
19 else as to what you should do if something untoward
20 happened, for example, you found out there was sexual
21 misconduct by another priest?
22 MR.
WOODS: Okay |