Deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony
[Note: This is Part 2 of a two-part HTML version of the Mahony deposition [see also Part 1] that BishopAccountability.org created from a Word document included with Cardinal Untruths: Mahony's Testimony in Sex Scandal Clashes with Earlier Statements and Reality, by Jeffrey Anderson, LA Weekly (12/15/04). See also Mahony in '80s Banned Two Priests: Deposition Reveals He Ousted Pair Accused of Molestation from U.S. While He Was Stockton Bishop, by Jean Guccione, LA Times (12/10/04); and Cardinal Mahony Accused of Perjury in Sex Abuse Case, by Don Lattin, San Francisco Chronicle (12/11/04). In his article, Anderson also provided four of the deposition exhibits: 2, 3, 4, and 8. For easier reading, we have formatted the list of exhibits and the list of questions that Mahony was instructed by his lawyer not to answer. We've displayed the page numbers in blue and adjusted the spacing, but otherwise this is the text of the deposition that accompanied Anderson's article.]0122
1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if the victims ever
2 did go to the police. So I'm not sure whether our
3 diocese attorney or myself was the first one who
4 actually made that initial contact.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Was it your policy or practice or custom or
7 or view that the appropriate thing to do if you found a
8 priest violated the law in in the manner of sexually
9 molesting a child, that the appropriate thing to do as
10 a first step is to report him to the police, prior to
12 MR. WOODS: First of all, I object that the
13 question is compound and that it asks custom and
14 practice, right thing to do, and half a dozen other
15 adjectives, all of which are separate issues.
16 MR. MANLY: All for let me try it again.
17 Q. Did you have a policy, a personal policy, that
18 employees in your diocese who molested children would
19 be reported to the police as a first step if you
20 believe the allegations to be true?
21 A. I don't think at that time we had a specific
23 Q. Was that your view prior to 1985?
24 MR. WOODS: Under any circumstances?
25 MR. MANLY: No.
1 Q. When you believed that priests had molested a
3 MR. WOODS: Okay. That's more specific.
4 THE WITNESS: If I recall, it was in 1984 that
5 the mandated reporting laws of California began. And
6 it was from that point on that a number of people
7 became mandated reporters. So we were all more
8 sensitive to that.
9 BY MR. MANLY:
10 Q. Okay. Well, my question's a little different.
11 I'm not I'm really not asking a legal question.
12 What I'm asking you is I'm trying to find
13 you, Roger Mahony's, view as a supervisor of people who
14 had regular contact with people, educators, teachers,
15 kindergarten teachers, priests who taught CCD, if you
16 found out one of your employees, lay, religious, or
17 priest, had molested a child, and you believed they
18 molested a child, was it your view prior to 1985 that
19 the first thing you should do is call the police?
20 MR. WOODS: Object to the form of the question
21 asking for a policy. He hasn't established you
22 haven't established that he had a set policy to do
23 anything. So since your question assumes a policy,
24 which to me means a preestablished course of action as
25 opposed to a case by case approach, I object.
1 MR. MANLY: Are you going to object or are you
2 just going to talk?
3 MR. WOODS: I object. And I'll instruct him
4 not to answer.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Do you think you should have if you found
7 out, Eminence, that a priest had molested a child, and
8 you believed it, you thought the right thing to do was
9 to call the cops, right, prior to 1985?
10 A. That somebody should report this matter to the
11 police, correct.
12 Q. You you directed your staff and they
13 understood, because you wanted to protect kids, that
14 what they should do if that person molested a child is
15 you do exactly what you did with Father Munoz, which is
16 to call the police; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. At any point prior to 1985 had, that
19 strike that. Move on.
20 Did you ever learn that there was any policy,
21 instruction, or document issued by the Vatican that
22 required you to keep sexual misconduct of priests
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you ever seen such a document?
1 A. Not specifically, no.
2 Q. How about generally, have you seen such a
4 A. No.
5 Q. Eminence, when did the California Catholic
6 Conference come into existence?
7 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember exactly when.
8 Q. Do you remember what decade?
9 A. I know it was in existence in the 1970s, but
10 exactly when it began, I just can't recall.
11 Q. Since the 1970s, have there been annual
12 meetings of the Bishops of California?
13 A. Up until '70 to '75, I don't know, because I
14 wasn't a Bishop. So I don't know whether they met or
15 didn't meet.
16 Q. After 1975, did you go to annual meetings of
17 California Bishops?
18 A. I believe by 1975 we were meeting annually.
19 Q. When is the first time you recall California
20 Bishops discussing the issue of the sexual abuse or
21 molestation of children by priests or religious?
22 A. Well, during our time frame here, which is
23 Fresno and Stockton, I do not recall that topic being
25 Q. Did somebody keep minutes of those meetings?
1 A. In the early days, I'm simply not certain.
2 Later on, when there was a full time executive
3 director, minutes were kept.
4 Q. Was there any policy or procedure or rule
5 against priests molesting children while you were a
6 priest of the Diocese of Monterey Fresno?
7 A. Yes. It's called the Law of God.
8 Q. Was there any specific policy in canon law or
9 otherwise that you knew about that that existed
10 during those years?
11 MR. WOODS: You mean other than, like, the Ten
12 Commandments, stuff like that?
13 MR. MANLY: You know, if we'd follow the
14 ten Commandments in this case, we'd probably be a lot
15 better off. But no, I don't mean the Ten Commandments.
16 MR. WOODS: Are you talking about a
17 specific it's so vague.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. I'm talking about a policy, procedure,
20 anything like that, that you knew existed while you
21 were a priest in the Diocese of Fresno Monterey.
22 A. Between 1962 and 1967?
23 Q. Yes, Eminence.
24 A. Other than we discussed this morning, that is
25 what it says in canon law.
1 Q. Okay. So the policy between those year was
2 canon law; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Is there all right.
5 When you became a priest of the Diocese of
6 Fresno up until the time you left, what was the policy
7 and procedure with regard to the sexual abuse of
8 children, if any, for the Diocese of Fresno?
9 A. If you recall this morning, I testified that
10 we did not have any actual specific written policies or
12 Q. Okay. Were there any rules, regulations,
13 instructions, canon law, or otherwise that dealt with
14 the sexual molestation of children by priests during
15 the years you were at Fresno?
16 A. I'm sorry. Could you give me the list again?
17 He was moving things behind you there.
18 MR. MANLY: Sure. Why don't you read it back.
19 THE WITNESS: I got distracted.
20 (The record was read as follows:
21 "Were there any rules, regulations,
22 instructions, canon law, or otherwise
23 that dealt with the sexual molestation
24 of children by priests during the years
25 you were at Fresno?")
1 THE WITNESS: If I understand the four nouns
2 you used, I think canon law would probably be the
3 the accurate one.
4 BY MR. MANLY:
5 Q. So canon law was the only thing you had?
6 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
7 Q. And in Fresno, who was in charge of enforcing
8 the canonical law on that issue?
9 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the
10 question as assumes there's some prosecutor or
11 enforcement agent
12 MR. MANLY: Yeah, it's called the Promoter of
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. There is; right?
16 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object and instruct
17 him not answer.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. Is the Promoter of Justice in charge of
20 enforcing the canon law?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 All right. Who was the Promoter of Justice
24 when you were there, do you remember, Eminence, sir, or
25 do we have to go to the Catholic Directory?
1 A. I simply don't know.
2 Q. Who was the Promoter of Justice in Stockton
3 when you were there, Eminence?
4 A. I don't recall, because we had several
5 canonist priests, and I honestly don't remember which
6 one was Promoter of Justice.
7 Q. If the office of Promoter of Justice was
8 vacant, who was in charge of enforcing the canon law as
9 to priests violating children?
10 MR. WOODS: Is this an expert opinion on his
11 understanding of the canon law or how it was actually
12 done when he was the Bishop?
13 MR. MANLY: I want to know, actually, how it
14 was done when he was the Bishop.
15 MR. WOODS: Okay.
16 BY MR. MANLY:
17 Q. You can answer the question, Your Eminence.
18 A. Well, if there was not an incumbent Promoter
19 of Justice and there was a case that needed the
20 appointment, then the Bishop could simply appoint
21 someone ad hoc for that case to be the Promoter of
23 Q. Did the policies you enforced in Stockton
24 prior to the Collegeville meeting differ in any way 25 let me let me strike that.
1 Did the way you handled or were supposed to
2 handle strike that.
3 When you handled the Munoz case and the
4 Camacho case, did you use canon law in any way in those
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. How did you use it?
8 A. I exercised my prerogative as the Bishop to
9 terminate their faculties and their assignment.
10 Q. Okay. And you had that absolute right;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you had the right you have the right to
14 suspend the faculties of any priest serving in your
15 diocese; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you have the right, prior to 1985, as the
18 Bishop of Stockton, to remove any priest serving in
19 your diocese, whether they're religious, diocesan,
20 extern, or otherwise from ministry; correct?
21 A. Well, with cause.
22 Q. Well, molesting kids is cause; fair?
23 MR. WOODS: And "from ministry," you mean from
24 ministry in his diocese?
25 MR. MANLY: That's right. Okay.
1 Q. Right?
2 A. Yes, from ministry in the diocese of Stockton,
4 Q. Okay. Can you could you have removed
5 Father O'Grady because he had urges towards young
6 people, if that had come to your attention?
7 A. No, that was not the the course of action
8 that would have been taken at that time.
9 Q. My question's a little different than that.
10 If if it had come to your attention that
11 Father O'Grady told a your Vicar General that he had
12 sexual urges towards a 9 year old or a 10 year old or
13 an 11 year old, is that cause to remove him from
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. MANLY: Why don't we take a break.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. Time
19 is 1:22.
20 (A brief recess was taken.)
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
22 The time is 1:36.
23 BY MR. MANLY:
24 Q. Eminence, do you remember testifying in a
25 civil trial in 1998, involving Father O'Grady?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you testify truthfully in that case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me show you a document that's two pages.
5 I'm going to represent it's from your trial testimony,
6 page 792 and 793. And I'd like you to begin at line
7 22, and then continuing.
8 MR. MANLY: If you want me, Counsel, I'll mark
9 where I want him to start.
10 MR. WOODS: Yeah, but we're going to have the
11 context before and after that in order to have an
13 MS. SOLTAN: We brought the entire deposition
14 transcript if you'd like to look at it.
15 MR. WOODS: Yeah, I'd like to see it.
16 MR. HENNIGAN: I'm sorry. Is this trial
17 transcript that he said?
18 MR. MANLY: Trial transcript.
19 MS. SOLTAN: I'm sorry. That's what I meant
20 to say. I misspoke.
21 MR. WOODS: I'd like an opportunity to read a
22 little bit of before and after, just to make sure we're
23 in context.
24 MS. SOLTAN: We would never misrepresent the
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. Would you look at 792 and 793, beginning at
3 line 22.
4 MR. HENNIGAN: Do you have a copy for us?
5 MR. MANLY: I just gave you one.
6 MR. HENNIGAN: You did?
7 MR. WOODS: So this is his full testimony?
8 MS. SOLTAN: That is his full testimony. And
9 we're referring with to page 792 and 793 is that
10 correct, John?
11 MR. MANLY: Yes.
12 MS. SOLTAN: of the transcript.
13 MR. WOODS: Do you have an extra copy of this?
14 MS. SOLTAN: Of the two pages?
15 MR. WOODS: Yeah.
16 MS. SOLTAN: Yes, I'm sure I can get that for
18 MR. WOODS: I'm going to read it first, and
19 then I'll give it to you.
20 MS. SOLTAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Hennigan, were
21 you the person who asked me for another couple of pages
23 MR. WOODS: I I need them.
24 MS. SOLTAN: That was you?
25 MR. WOODS: We'll I'll give this one to the
1 witness so he can read it. I'm reading it
2 MS. SOLTAN: Oh, all right. Tell me when
3 you're ready, so you have one.
4 MR. WOODS: Well, give it to me. I'll give
5 him he can start reading.
6 MS. SOLTAN: That's a good idea.
7 MR. WOODS: Just trying to save time.
8 MS. SOLTAN: I'm so glad you're here.
9 MR. WOODS: Start up here (indicating) and
10 read down and get the flow.
11 Okay. Do you want to mark these pages as an
13 MR. MANLY: Yeah, next in order.
14 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 7 and 8 were
15 marked for identification.)
16 BY MR. MANLY:
17 Q. Cardinal, beginning at line 22 on page 792,
18 can you read the testimony into the record, please?
19 MR. WOODS: The highlighted testimony?
20 MR. MANLY: Well, I don't think it's I
21 don't know if it's
22 I can't see if it's highlighted on his page,
23 but it begins at line 22, beginning, question, "Was
24 during a period of time."
25 THE WITNESS: Who is Q?
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. That's Mr. Diepenbrock, the diocese attorney.
3 A. Question
4 Q. He's also a character in James Bond, but we'll
5 save you the go ahead.
6 A. "Was during a period of time you
7 were the Bishop of Stockton, were there
8 any other priests that were involved in
9 any kind of sexual misconduct with children?
10 "Mr. Drivon: Your honor, that calls
11 for speculation.
12 "The Court: If the witness has
13 personal knowledge, he can answer. But
14 I will ask you not to speculate, Cardinal.
15 "The Witness: Again, during my
16 period of time, I cannot recall another
18 "Mr. Diepenbrock: Question: Well,
19 if there had been any other cases
20 when you were the Bishop of Stockton,
21 you certainly would have heard about it,
22 wouldn't you?
23 "Answer: "Oh, yes. But I can't
24 recall another case.
25 "Question: "Were there any other
2 "Answer: Not that I know of.
3 "Question: This was the only one?
4 "Answer: Yes."
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Okay. And you gave that testimony on June
7 12th, '98, Your Eminence?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And is that testimony truthful?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You don't mention Father Camacho or
12 Father Munoz, do you?
13 A. I do not.
14 Q. But Father Camacho and Father Munoz molested
15 children while you were the Bishop of Stockton;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have an explanation for that?
19 A. This trial was some 13 years after I had left
20 the Diocese of Stockton. We had many events in the
21 Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and I was very preoccupied.
22 We had the visit of the Holy Father. We had the
23 earthquakes. We had riots. We had everything. And I
24 simply did not remember everything that happened many
25 years ago in Stockton.
1 Q. So your testimony is you forgot that
2 Father Camacho and Father Munoz molested children while
3 you were the Bishop; is that accurate?
4 A. That is accurate.
5 Q. Okay. Do you remember testifying about this
6 issue in your deposition in that case?
7 A. The deposition prior to the trial?
8 Q. Yes. Yes, sir, about a year before.
9 A. I actually don't recall.
10 Q. Do you know if that question was asked in your
12 A. Again, I don't recall whether it was or not.
13 Q. Were you you were not attempting to mislead
14 the jury; is that right?
15 A. On the contrary.
16 Q. So you forgot about your the police
17 investigation of your priests, Father Camacho and
18 Father Munoz; is that your testimony?
19 A. I had forgotten about those incidents.
20 Q. Okay. Prior to was Vicar General Cain in
21 the courtroom when you testified?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Did at any point Vicar General Cain come to
24 you and remind you that this was incorrect?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When did you first remember that Camacho and
2 Munoz cases?
3 A. I don't recall exactly. But at some point I
4 was given all the files involving those three priests.
5 Q. Are there any other priests you've forgotten
6 about, you think, or just those two?
7 A. Just those two.
8 Q. Eminence, do you remember in Fresno, a priest
9 molesting mentally ill people?
10 MR. WOODS: Before 1985?
11 MR. MANLY: Yeah.
12 THE WITNESS: There was a case, but I don't
13 recall the time frame.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. Do you remember a priest molesting mentally
16 ill people when you were the Bishop of Fresno I'm
17 sorry, when you were the Auxiliary Bishop in Fresno?
18 A. I don't recall the time period when that
19 actually occurred.
20 Q. Do you recall at any point becoming aware of a
21 priest sexually exploiting mentally ill people in
23 A. I remember at some point.
24 Q. Okay. When did you learn that?
25 A. I honestly don't recall.
1 Q. Do you remember what decade?
2 MR. WOODS: I'm sorry?
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Do you remember what decade?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. Okay. Let me read to you a portion of your
7 deposition testimony in 1978. I'd be happy to show it
8 to you after I read it.
9 A. Excuse me. What year?
10 Q. I'm, sorry 1980 1997?
11 MR. WOODS: Can we have the transcript?
12 MR. MANLY: Yeah. I'll show it to you when
13 I'm done.
14 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 1997?
15 MR. MANLY: Yes, Eminence.
16 MR. WOODS: This is the transcript in the?
17 BY MR. MANLY:
18 Q. In the Howard case.
19 Beginning at page 73, line 1:
20 "Okay. And you knew Father O'Grady
21 was a priest of the diocese over whom
22 you had control, at least as it pertains
23 to his faculties and assignments?
24 "Answer: "Yes.
25 "And if you had known he
1 admitted to having criminal sexual
2 contact with a 9 year old boy, you
3 would have not placed him in the parish
4 at St. Andrews?
5 "Answer: Had I known all of what's
6 in this report, I probably would have
7 taken him out of any assignment and
8 sent him off for a full evaluation
9 and some determination to be made.
10 He would never have been transferred,
11 especially to a place where the pastor
12 who was there, wasn't there sometimes and
13 not sometimes, never, never, never
14 done it."
15 Okay. Do you want to see the testimony?
16 MS. SOLTAN: What page is that?
17 MR. MANLY: 73 and 74.
18 MR. WOODS: We'll wait for the question, and
19 we may need to see the rest.
20 BY MR. MANLY:
21 Q. My question is do you remember giving that
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. My question is: Where would you have sent him
25 off to treatment to if you didn't know treatment
2 A. Well, at this time, I probably would have
3 consulted with the Bishops' conference to find a place.
4 There were a number of psychological places in
5 California that dealt with psychological problems, in
6 the Bay area.
7 Q. What was he going to be treated for?
8 A. I believe to be evaluated.
9 Q. Well, you said, "Send him off for a full
10 evaluation." Okay?
11 What was he going to be evaluated for?
12 A. He would be evaluated for whatever the
13 allegation was.
14 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document, Eminence.
15 I'll show you the Latin version and the English
17 MR. WOODS: Are you going to mark them?
18 MR. MANLY: Yeah. We'll mark them as
19 MS. SOLTAN: Are we at 9 and 10?
20 MR. MANLY: Why don't we mark them as 9 and
22 MR. WOODS: Go ahead and mark them so when
23 they arrive here, they're marked. Because we're losing
24 stuff left and right.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Exhibit 9 is going to be the
1 Latin version, and Exhibit 10 is going to be the
2 translation. This is the 1962 document. Is that what
3 we're calling this?
4 MR. MANLY: Yeah.
5 MS. SOLTAN: The 1962
6 MR. MANLY: 1962 instruction.
7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 9 and 10 were
8 marked for identification.)
9 MS. SOLTAN: Here you go, Cardinal.
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Have you ever seen that document before,
12 Your Eminence?
13 MR. WOODS: Do you have a copy for me?
14 MS. SOLTAN: I beg your pardon?
15 MR. WOODS: Copy for me?
16 MR. MANLY: Oh, I'm sorry.
17 MS. SOLTAN: It's in reverse order. The Latin
18 is at the back.
19 MR. WOODS: Okay. So the English is 10, and
20 the Latin is 9.
21 And your representation is that one is the
22 correct translation of the other?
23 MR. MANLY: Right.
24 MR. WOODS: And who translated 10?
25 MS. SOLTAN: I think the document reflects it.
1 MR. WOODS: I'm sorry. The document what?
2 MS. SOLTAN: I think the document reflects the
3 name of the translator and what it is a translation of.
4 MR. WOODS: Can you show that to me?
5 MS. SOLTAN: You might look at the very end,
6 where it's indicated. No. Is that is that wrong?
7 Is that the author? I'm sorry. I misspoke.
8 MR. MANLY: I'll represent to you that's an
9 accurate translation. You can take issue with it if
10 you want to.
11 MR. WOODS: Is this the Doyle translation?
12 MR. MANLY: I'll represent it's an accurate
14 Q. Have you ever seen anything like that
15 document, Your Eminence?
16 MR. HENNIGAN: What would be the basis upon
17 which you represent it's an accurate translation?
18 MR. MANLY: That it's been examined by a Latin
19 scholar, and I've been told it's an accurate
21 MS. SOLTAN: You can reserve all rights,
22 Counsel. We have no problem. If you find that it
23 isn't an accurate translation, you can certainly do
24 whatever you think is appropriate.
25 MR. WOODS: I just want to identify a source.
1 This is the Doyle translation of the 1962 instruction?
2 MR. MANLY: No, I'm not saying that.
3 MR. HENNIGAN: Is it not that, or is it
4 MR. MANLY: I don't I don't know that it's
5 him. I know it's a Latin scholar.
6 MR. WOODS: Okay. Well, it looks very
7 similar. And I don't proclaim
8 MR. MANLY: Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I
9 don't know.
10 MR. WOODS: that I can go through 50 pages
11 and tell you. But it looks very similar to one that he
12 made. Now, it may just be the format is the same. I
13 can't tell for sure.
14 MS. SOLTAN: Well, if you prefer, the Cardinal
15 perhaps could translate paragraph 73 from the Latin to
16 English for us on the record. Would you prefer that?
17 MR. MANLY: Why don't you do that, Cardinal?
18 MR. WOODS: I'm not sure that the Cardinal is
19 qualified to translate; although I'm sure he knows
20 quite a bit of Latin.
21 BY MR. MANLY:
22 Q. Have you ever all I'm trying to
23 establish I'm not going to ask you about the
24 document yet.
25 Have you ever seen anything like that before?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did you see it for the first time?
3 A. I believe in the last year or so this document
4 came to my attention.
5 Q. Okay. So your testimony is your sworn
6 testimony is you've never seen anything like that
7 document, that instruction, prior to 2003?
8 MR. WOODS: I object to the vague expression,
9 "something like that." I mean, this is the
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Did you ever see that instruction before 2003,
12 Your Eminence?
13 MR. WOODS: This particular one, crimine
15 MR. MANLY: That's right.
16 MR. WOODS: Have you seen this one before?
17 MR. MANLY: That's right.
18 MR. WOODS: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: I simply don't recall seeing
20 this ever before.
21 BY MR. MANLY:
22 Q. Okay. Do you know what it says about
23 pedophilia, Eminence?
24 A. No, not specifically.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Page 22.
1 MR. WOODS: Page 22 of the translation,
2 Exhibit 10? The pages aren't numbered.
3 MS. SOLTAN: Actually, if you go to the very
4 end of the translated document, it's the last two full
5 pages of the document, starting with what is entitled
6 "Title IV," in Roman numerals, and "Title V." And
7 under the section entitled "The Worst Crime" is the
8 section that we're talking about.
9 MR. HENNIGAN: And where is that? Is there a
10 numbered paragraph?
11 MS. SOLTAN: The second second to the last
12 page of the document in English, before the appendix.
13 MR. WOODS: Before the appendix.
14 MR. HENNIGAN: Is there a paragraph number?
15 MS. SOLTAN: Paragraph 71, 72, 73 is what
16 we're directing inviting your attention to.
17 MR. WOODS: Paragraph 71.
18 MS. SOLTAN: Would you like me to find it for
20 MR. WOODS: Yeah. Oh, page 22 at the top.
21 Okay. The Cardinal's got it.
22 MS. SOLTAN: Here you are.
23 Can I find it for you?
24 MR. HENNIGAN: I found it.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Cardinal, may I assist you?
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. You're looking at
2 paragraph 73?
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Yes.
5 MR. WOODS: So we should just look at 73?
6 MR. MANLY: Right.
7 MS. SOLTAN: No. It's
8 MR. MANLY: 66.
9 MR. WOODS: 66?
10 MR. MANLY: No. 66.
11 MR. WOODS: 66.
12 MR. MANLY: Right.
13 Q. "Whenever an Ordinary immediately accepts
14 a denunciation of the crime of solicitation,
15 he should not omit telling this to the Holy
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Prior to 1985, did you ever report a priest to
20 the Holy Office of the Vatican for abusing a child?
21 A. Well, that's a different question than
22 paragraph 66.
23 Q. My question stands.
24 Did you?
25 A. No.
1 MR. HENNIGAN: No, you don't get to do that.
2 You don't get to throw in paragraph 66
3 MR. MANLY: Did you
4 MR. HENNIGAN: and act like
5 MR. MANLY: Okay. Fine.
6 Q. Forget paragraph 66 exists.
7 Did you ever report to the Holy Office or to
8 any official of the Vatican, prior to 1985, that a
9 priest had molested a child?
10 A. Aside from this document?
11 Q. Right.
12 A. No, not to the best my recollection.
13 Q. Okay. Can you read paragraph 73 into the
15 MR. HENNIGAN: Look, without knowing what this
16 document is, if you want it read into the record, you
17 read it.
18 MR. MANLY: Okay. I'll read it into the
20 "To have the worst crime, for the penal
21 effects, one must do the equivalent of the
22 following: Any obscene, external act,
23 gravely sinful, perpetrated in any way by a
24 cleric or attempted by him with youths of
25 either sex with brute animals (bestiality )."
1 MR. WOODS: "Or with brute animals."
2 BY MR. MANLY:
3 Q. Have you ever seen that before, Eminence?
4 MR. WOODS: Have you seen this?
5 MR. MANLY: That paragraph.
6 MR. WOODS: In this document?
7 MR. MANLY: Right.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure which translation I
9 had seen before. I had seen this document in in
10 Latin, and I think maybe a translation. I'm not sure I
11 have seen this translation of it.
12 BY MR. MANLY:
13 Q. Did you know prior to 1985 that that
14 instruction existed on that issue?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document and
17 paragraph 70, let me read that into the record.
18 "All these official communications shall
19 always be made under the secret of the Holy
20 Office. And since they concern the common
21 good of the church to the greatest degree,
22 the precept of doing these things obliges
23 under serious sin (subgravi)," G R A V I.
24 What is the secret of the Holy Office,
25 Your Eminence?
1 A. Well, if you have to go up to paragraph 66
2 to understand the context of of those paragraphs.
3 It all has to do with solicitation and confession.
4 Q. Do you know if Father O'Grady ever solicited
5 sex in the confessional?
6 A. No, I do not.
7 Q. Prior to 1985, did you ever have occasion to
8 deal with a priest who solicited sex in the
10 A. Prior to 1985, no, I can't recall any case.
11 Q. Let me show you a document entitled "Gravoria
12 Delicta: The Apostolic Letter, M.P." by Brian Edward
14 Do you know Dr. Ferme?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Who is he?
17 A. He is a priest, I think from England, who is a
18 canon lawyer.
19 Q. Is he the dean of the canon law school at
20 Catholic University of America?
21 A. I believe presently he is.
22 Q. Okay. Is he an extremist, as far as you know,
23 you know, crazy in any way?
24 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
25 to answer.
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. You said he's a he's a priest in communion
3 with Rome; correct, as far as you know?
4 A. As far as I know.
5 Q. Okay. Have you ever known him to do anything
6 heretical or or out of the ordinary that would cause
7 you to to question his competence as a canon lawyer
8 and a priest?
9 A. I have so little contact with Father Ferme, I
10 simply couldn't answer your question.
11 Q. Okay. Can you look at Page 368, starting
13 MR. WOODS: You haven't given it to us yet.
14 MR. MANLY: I will.
15 Q. starting with, "We do Know"?
16 MR. WOODS: Is this Exhibit 11 now?
17 MR. MANLY: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: So this is not these other
19 documents now?
20 MR. MANLY: That is a new exhibit, right.
21 MR. WOODS: So this what do we have here?
22 Two documents? The first one, "Il Processo," that's
23 Exhibit 11.
24 MR. MANLY: That's that's the journal, and
25 this is an article out of the journal. I don't know
1 what you've got on the pad there.
2 MR. WOODS: And the article by Father Doyle is
3 Exhibit 12?
4 MR. MANLY: No. That's that's wrong. I
5 didn't mean to give that to you. I'm sorry.
6 MR. WOODS: Okay. So Exhibit 11 is a journal
7 cover and a title page, and then it starts on Page 365
8 with an article.
9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 11 was marked for
11 MR. WOODS: Do you want him to read this
13 MS. SOLTAN: Page 368, please.
14 MR. WOODS: Page what?
15 MR. MANLY: 368.
16 MS. SOLTAN: 368, last full paragraph.
17 MR. WOODS: 368. Which paragraph?
18 MS. SOLTAN: Last full paragraph.
19 MR. WOODS: We do not know?
20 MR. MANLY: Beginning "We do know."
21 MR. WOODS: Oh, "We do know."
22 MR. MANLY: Right.
23 MR. WOODS: Okay. So you go ahead and read
24 it, and the
25 MR. MANLY: No. I want the Cardinal to read
2 MR. WOODS: Out loud?
3 MR. MANLY: Right.
4 MR. HENNIGAN: No.
5 MR. MANLY: Why not?
6 MR. HENNIGAN: It's not his document. You're
7 not going to put these word in his mouth. If you want
8 to read them
9 MR. MANLY: All right.
10 MS. SOLTAN: you read them.
11 MR. MANLY: "We do know that in 1962,
12 the Holy Office issued an instruction,
13 Crimen Sollicitantionis. As the title
14 suggests, these norms specifically
15 concerned the delict of solicitation
16 in order to commit a sin against the
17 sixth commandment on the occasion of
18 confession. The instruction was sent
19 to all the patriarchs, archbishops,
20 Bishops, and other ordinaries and was
21 based on the general norm found in
22 Canon 247, Section 2.
23 "The CDF could directly judge
24 this delict though if the Ordinary
25 judged the case, he had to proceed
1 according to the instruction and had
2 to inform the congregation of the result.
3 "While the instruction dealt
4 specifically with the solicitation
5 and the procedural norms to be applied
6 in judging this crime, the fifth
7 chapter stated that the same norms
8 were also be observed for crimen
9 pessimum, Article 71, which was also
10 understood to included paedophilia."
11 Do you see that, Cardinal?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm trying to find out the
13 date of this article.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. It's 2004, I believe.
16 A. Do you see where that says 2004?
17 Q. 2003.
18 MS. SOLTAN: I have a document with a
19 copyright of 2003, Cardinal.
20 MR. WOODS: 2003?
21 MS. SOLTAN: 2003.
22 THE WITNESS: 2003?
23 MS. SOLTAN: Yes.
24 BY MR. MANLY:
25 Q. So my question to you is: Did you prior to
1 1985, did you know that this instruction existed for
2 handling cases of solicitation that involved
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Did you ever have a Bishop or anybody else
6 tell you that this instruction existed?
7 A. No, not except the last year or so.
8 Q. Do you accept, Eminence, based on this
9 article, given Mr. Ferme is the head of canon law at
10 Catholic University, that his statement is accurate?
11 Or do you take issue with it?
12 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
13 an expert opinion. Instruct the witness not to answer.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. Let's go back to your deposition in 1997 and
16 let me read to you from Page 89. I'd be happy to show
17 it to you. Actually, take that back, Page 88,
18 beginning at line
19 MR. HENNIGAN: Are we going to see a copy of
21 MR. MANLY: Yeah. I'm going to read it,
22 though, so he can hear it.
23 MR. WOODS: Yeah. Is this the Howard trial or
25 MR. MANLY: Deposition.
1 MR. WOODS: And page?
2 MR. HENNIGAN: We don't have that.
3 MR. WOODS: I've got it right here.
4 Is this the trial?
5 MR. MANLY: It's no. It's the deposition.
6 MR. HENNIGAN: We don't have it.
7 MR. WOODS: We don't have it.
8 MR. MANLY: Okay. I'd be happy to share it
9 with you.
10 MR. HENNIGAN: It would be efficient if we
11 could look at it in context.
12 MS. SOLTAN: Is that what I have?
13 MR. MANLY: Yeah. It's the '97
14 MR. WOODS: Oh, this is the deposition?
15 MR. MANLY: Yeah.
16 MR. WOODS: Oh, okay. Okay. I've got it.
17 This is I thought this was the trial.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. So go to Page 88.
20 MR. WOODS: Page 88.
21 MR. MANLY: Actually, I think it would be
22 easier just for him to read it into the record.
23 MR. WOODS: No, no. Go ahead.
24 MR. MANLY: No, I'd like him to read it.
25 MR. WOODS: Okay. Where do you want him to
1 read? From where to read to yourself.
2 MR. MANLY: Line 24:
3 "And are you aware there has been a
4 practice that has at least been noted, where
5 they were moved because there was interest
6 to avoid scandal in the church."
7 And then his answer beginning, "My
9 MR. WOODS: Who is "they"?
10 MR. MANLY: Do you want to start from the
11 prior question? That's fine.
12 Let me know when you're done.
13 MR. WOODS: We're down to 89, line 17. Is
14 that where you want us to stop?
15 MR. MANLY: Yep.
16 MR. WOODS: That's where the highlighting
18 MR. MANLY: That's what I that's what I
19 want him to read.
20 Q. So beginning at line 24, "And are you aware."
21 A. Okay. So we're on Page 88, line which
22 which line do you want me
23 Q. It's it's confusing, because it's the
25 A. Two pages are...
1 Q. Yeah. So beginning at line 24, saying, "And
2 are you aware there has been a practice that has at
3 least been noted, where they were moved because"
4 A. Oh, all right.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. WOODS: So what's the question?
7 MR. MANLY: I want him to read it.
8 MR. WOODS: We're not going to do that.
9 MR. MANLY: He won't read it into the record,
10 his own testimony?
11 MR. WOODS: You read it.
12 MR. MANLY: Okay.
13 "Are you aware there's been a
14 practice that has at least been
15 noted, where they were moved because
16 there was an interest to avoid
17 scandal in the church.
18 "Answer: My understanding in
19 those earlier years was that church
20 authorities were unaware, really,
21 of the extent of this disease and
22 illness, and as was psychology and
23 psychiatry, actually, and that what
24 we have come to know today has come
25 more through evolution. And it's
1 like alcoholism among priests, it
2 was considered to be some kind of
3 a moral thing; and then if you
4 decided not to drink, you wouldn't
5 drink. And so treatment in that,
6 it was simply not part of the reality
7 of the time. And so I think it's why
8 evolution we have come to realize
9 today what we did not know as clearly
10 in those earlier years.
11 "But my only recollection as
12 a priest, or anyone, since ordination
13 was that we had a case in Fresno
14 when I was there of a priest
15 chaplain at a state hospital of
16 adults, though this was not children,
17 who was accused of molesting some
18 of these they were mentally retarded.
19 "And so we pulled him out
20 immediately and sent him I can't
21 recall where for evaluation.
22 But he was never allowed to serve
23 again, in fact, left the priesthood.
24 In fact, he went to jail eventually,
25 I believe, and left the priesthood.
1 "But my only recollection of
2 dealing with one of those cases in
3 those years is we didn't there
4 was no tolerance for this.
5 "Question: Actually, your answer
6 in part leads me to my next question.
7 And that is: Before 1984, as in the
8 capacity of Bishop or Auxiliary Bishop,
9 had you ever had cause or occasion
10 to deal with the issue of a priest
11 of a diocese being accused of the
12 molestation of a child or parishioner.
13 "Answer: Not of a child, although
14 one could, I believe, say at
15 Porterville State Hospital, whether
16 chronologically older, they are
17 mentally, maybe, children. But that
18 was the only case I was aware of
19 And we pulled him out of there immediately."
20 Q. Did you testify truthfully in that deposition,
22 THE WITNESS: With the knowledge I had at the
23 time, yes.
24 MR. MANLY: I'll turn it over to Mr. Simons.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Actually, I would like to just
1 follow up with a few things, if I may. Is that all
3 MR. SIMONS: That's fine with me.
4 MS. SOLTAN: Apparently, the hardest part of
5 this is going to be figuring out the microphone.
8 BY MS. SOLTAN:
9 Q. Cardinal, you were at the diocese of
10 Fresno Monterey, which became the diocese of Fresno and
11 Monterey, from 1962 until 1980; correct? I understand
12 that correctly, yes?
13 A. 1962 to 1980, correct.
14 Q. Right. You were incardinated in 1962 and
15 remained incardinated at that diocese until you left to
16 go to Stockton?
17 A. Yes, that would be correct.
18 Q. And during that time period, you held just
19 about every office, didn't you? I mean, you were a
20 pastor and an administrator; that's correct?
21 MR. WOODS: Okay. I'm going to object.
22 There's several questions pending. Which one do you
23 want him to answer?
24 MS. SOLTAN: Well, let me do it this way,
25 because I'm trying to just expedite a little bit.
1 Q. I understood that you were a pastor, you were
2 an administrator, you were a Vicar General, were you an
3 Auxiliary Bishop, you were a Chancellor. Did I did
4 I hit them all?
5 A. I think, except for director of
6 Catholic Charities.
7 Q. And director of Catholic Charities.
8 So you had a wide range of roles during the
9 time that you were at Fresno; yes?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Okay. Did any of those roles involve
12 establishing policy on behalf of the diocese with
13 regard to the protection of children?
14 MR. WOODS: Object to the word "involve."
15 Does that mean occur?
16 BY MS. SOLTAN:
17 Q. Do you understand what I mean by the word
19 A. Actually, I'm more confused what you mean by
20 "developing policies." Are you talking about written
22 Q. No. I'm talking about did you feel that
23 you it was one of your responsibilities to protect
24 the children of the diocese in any of those roles?
25 A. Well, obviously, as a priest, in any role
1 you're anxious to protect everybody.
2 Q. Right. And that it also involved protecting
3 children, of course?
4 A. I'll wait till there there's a lot of
5 movement goes on over there behind you, and I find it
6 very distracting.
7 MR. WOODS: Could everyone sit down, please?
8 MS. SLOAN: My back hurts.
9 MR. WOODS: Could you stand over there, then,
11 THE WITNESS: See, what happens is you're
12 right behind the person moving. And it's
13 MS. SLOAN: I wasn't moving until your lawyer
14 asked me to. I'm sorry.
15 MR. WOODS: I'm finding it distracting. I'm
17 THE WITNESS: It would be very helpful if over
18 by that wall, then I wouldn't in my frame of view, I
19 wouldn't have anyone moving in the background.
20 MS. SOLTAN: Would you like me to move to the
21 other side of the camera? Would that help?
22 MR. WOODS: No. You're fine. You're fine
24 MS. SOLTAN: I forgot my question. Can we
25 have that back, please?
1 (The record was read as follows:
2 "And that it also involved protecting
3 children, of course?")
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, protecting everyone.
5 BY MS. SOLTAN:
6 Q. Is it true to say that that was true of every
7 single one of those roles that you had at the Diocese
8 of Fresno?
9 A. Well, there would be various emphasis
10 according to the specific job at hand.
11 Q. Okay. Could you please describe for me, in
12 your capacity as a priest, what did you do to protect
13 children at the diocese.
14 A. Well, as priests, we were very concerned with
15 making sure that parents were taking care of their
16 children and they were being properly nourished and
17 fed, and all the other obligations that that you
18 would have.
19 Q. What about physical abuse, if you saw evidence
20 of physical abuse, would you have done something?
21 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
22 an opinion.
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. Well, you indicated that you looked to see if
25 they were nourished and fed.
1 Did you also look to see if they were being
2 beaten, for example?
3 A. Well, in the parishes I served, there were a
4 lot of poor people. And so a lot of them couldn't
5 afford food and that. So we were always concerned to
6 make sure that they had adequate food, or whatever
7 clothing, whatever they needed.
8 Q. Did you also look for signs of physical abuse,
9 like if they were being beaten, for example?
10 A. I did not personally look for abuse, no.
11 Q. Why not?
12 MR. WOODS: Are you saying is it a conscious
13 thing, I'm looking for abuse? Is that what
14 MS. SOLTAN: Absolutely.
15 MR. WOODS: Okay.
16 MS. SOLTAN: Cardinal, I
17 MR. WOODS: A a conscious awareness at that
19 MS. SOLTAN: That's right.
20 MR. WOODS: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Probably not conscious, but
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. If you had seen evidence of physical abuse of
25 a child in your parish or where where you were,
1 would you have done something about it?
2 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for
3 opinion. Instruct the witness not to answer.
4 BY MS. SOLTAN:
5 Q. Are you taking the advice of your counsel,
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During the time that you were a priest
9 actually, in any capacity at Fresno, did you ever have
10 occasion to see what you considered to be a possibility
11 of physical abuse of a child of any kind?
12 A. No, I simply don't recall anything specific.
13 Q. All right. Did you view, in in all of your
14 various roles during at Fresno, did you supervise
15 other employees of the diocese?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would that include other priests?
18 A. At times, yes.
19 Q. And lay employees as well?
20 A. Yes, at times.
21 Q. Is it fair to say that you had a supervisory
22 role in every single one of your capacities while you
23 were working at Fresno?
24 A. Some to some extent.
25 Q. All right. Did you have more of a supervisory
1 capacity as you went up the ranks, if you will? I
2 don't know if that's the correct phrase, but advanced
3 in the hierarchy of the church. Did your role of
4 supervision increase?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. Okay. In terms of so you felt that you had
7 a consistent role, requiring you to supervise the
8 employees of the diocese from the time you were a
9 priest all the way until the time you were a Bishop?
10 A. Well, "supervise" means a lot of things.
11 Q. That that's my next question.
12 What does that mean to you? What did you
13 understand that to mean when you were there?
14 MR. WOODS: In each role? Take each role and
15 explain? Okay.
16 So starting as a parish priest, each of the
18 THE WITNESS: Well, we'll go back to my first
19 assignment. When I was first ordained, I was at
20 St. John's Cathedral. And most of my ministry was
21 there in the parish, but also taking care of two big
22 hospitals, the county hospital and the community
23 hospital. So we were dealing primarily with trauma
24 patients and people ill, and ministering to the sick,
25 primarily, in those first four month.
1 And the next two years, I was in Washington,
2 D.C., so I wasn't in the diocese.
3 BY MS. SOLTAN:
4 Q. Before you go on, sir, let me ask you: Were
5 the employees of the hospital employees of the diocese?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were any of the employees of the hospital
8 employees of the diocese?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were any procedures taken when when you
11 say, then, you were working in connection with the
12 hospital, what does that mean? What were you doing?
13 A. That means when Catholic patients were there,
14 we visited them; when there was an accident and someone
15 needed the anointing of the sick, the sacrament, then
16 we went to anoint them; we had to oftentimes comfort
17 families of sick and injured persons and, quite
18 frequently, of people who had died in an accident or an
20 Q. Okay. So I started out this question in terms
21 of your supervision. And you talked about the
23 Were you supervising someone at the hospital?
24 A. No. But you asked me what I did in each of
25 the roles I had in the diocese. So I just started at
1 the beginning.
2 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. Great.
3 MR. WOODS: She wants to know what your
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. WOODS: role was in each job.
7 THE WITNESS: I know.
8 BY MS. SOLTAN:
9 Q. Okay. So when you were at St. John's, sir,
10 what was your supervisory role?
11 A. Minimal. I was there for four months.
12 Q. Okay. And your position, then, was a a
13 priest? That's the best
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. With regard to two things now, one is
16 the protection of children and the other is the
17 possible of sexual misconduct of priests, could you
18 please indicate to me what you did to ensure, number
19 one, that children were protected when you were a
20 priest at St. John's. What did you do?
21 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object that he has
22 any obligation to ensure or guarantee or affirmatively
23 protect anybody at any time, okay, as a matter of legal
24 obligation. That's not what you mean, I don't think.
25 MS. SOLTAN: Well, I'm not really sure what
1 your comments are, because this is an oral argument.
2 So, I mean, is that an objection of some nature?
3 MR. WOODS: Yeah. Are you asking for an
4 expert opinion?
5 MS. SOLTAN: No. I'm asking for this
6 gentleman's factual recollection
7 MR. WOODS: Okay.
8 MS. SOLTAN: of what he did to supervise
9 people at St. John's in the interest of protecting
11 Q. Which you indicated to me to be something that
12 you felt was your responsibility consistently in every
13 position you had.
14 MR. WOODS: Well, you're asking for a
15 conscious effort, something he did consciously at that
16 point in time to protect children. Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: I I'm confused by your
18 question. I'm sorry. During those four months
19 BY MS. SOLTAN:
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I celebrated masses and weekdays and heard
22 confessions, said mass on Sundays, preached, and helped
23 take care of the Catholic patients at two hospitals. I
24 really didn't have any supervisory role
25 Q. Well, did you have a
1 A. of people.
2 Q. Did you have a parish secretary?
3 A. The parish had a parish secretary.
4 Q. Did she work for you?
5 A. Worked for the pastor, actually.
6 Q. Was that you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Did anyone work under you?
9 A. Not really. I was only there four months,
10 brand new priest.
11 Q. All right. So you didn't you believe that
during the time you were at St. Johns, you didn't
13 supervise anyone?
14 A. I can't recall during those four brief months.
15 This is 1962. I simply can't recall. That wasn't my
17 Q. Okay. Did you have any instruction during the
18 time that you were a priest at St. John's from anyone
19 else as to what you should do if something untoward
20 happened, for example, you found out there was sexual
21 misconduct by another priest?
22 MR. WOODS: Okay. So first she said
23 "anything," and then she limited it to sexual
24 misconduct by another priest. I think that's what you
25 want the answer to, the later.
1 MS. SOLTAN: Well, actually, I want it in two
2 areas. One is I want it with regard to protection of
3 children. And second one I want is with regard to
4 sexual misconduct of a priest.
5 Q. Did you receive instruction from your
6 supervisor as to what you were supposed to do to make
7 sure that there was no sexual misconduct of priests
8 toward children, and to ensure that children were
9 protected? What instruction did you receive?
10 A. Since that was 42 years ago, I simply can't
11 recall. I'm sorry.
12 BY MS. SOLTAN:
13 Q. All right. During the time that you were at
14 Fresno during the entire time you were in Fresno and
15 Stockton, were instructions ever given to you with
16 regard to what you should do to protect children, by
17 someone else acting on behalf of the diocese?
18 A. I can't recall anything specific, because
19 protecting children can mean many, many things.
20 Q. All right. Let's get more specific, then.
21 Protecting children from potential sexual
23 A. I don't recall any instruction.
24 Q. During the entire time that you worked at
25 Fresno and at Stockton, did you give instructions to
1 anyone with regard to ensuring the protection of
2 children from potential sex abuse?
3 A. I can't recall any.
4 Q. During the time that you've worked at Fresno
5 and at Stockton, were you aware that anyone else acting
6 on behalf of the diocese gave instruction with regard
7 to protecting children from sex abuse?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No, no one did it or no, you don't recall?
10 A. You asked if I recalled, and I said I don't
12 Q. Okay. What I'm really troubled by is that
13 ultimately you were the Auxiliary Bishop of Fresno and
14 you were the Bishop of Stockton. And I think you've
15 said earlier that that was tantamount to, or akin to,
16 being a CEO in a company.
17 If you didn't give the instruction, who would
19 MR. WOODS: All right. I object to the entire
20 preamble. Misstates the prior testimony.
21 Instruct you to ignore it.
22 The question is
23 MS. SOLTAN: To ignore it?
24 MR. WOODS: if you didn't give an
25 instruction to protect children, who would have; is
1 that the question? Okay. And I object to that
2 question as calling for an expert opinion. It's
3 speculation and is irrelevant to the subject matter of
4 this case.
5 MS. SOLTAN: I think you forgot hearsay.
6 MR. WOODS: Also, asked and answered.
7 BY MS. SOLTAN:
8 Q. You indicated earlier that you delegated
9 authorities on occasion to various other members of the
10 diocese. Particularly, the Monsignor Cain, for
11 example, had received a delegation of duties from you.
12 Did you ever delegate the responsibility
14 I'm sorry. Did you have a question?
15 MR. WOODS: I object to the question already,
16 but I'll wait for you to finish.
17 BY MS. SOLTAN:
18 Q. Did you ever delegate authority to anyone else
19 in Fresno with regard to setting policy I'm sorry,
20 setting practices with regard to the protection of
21 children from potential sex abuse?
22 A. I don't recall, no.
23 Q. How about at Stockton, did you ever do that at
24 Stockton, delegate the responsibility for establishing
25 procedures to protect children from potential sex
2 A. Actually, yes.
3 Q. Okay. And who did you delegate to?
4 A. Well, I didn't actually delegate. After the
5 June 1985 Collegeville meeting, I informed
6 Monsignor Cain and one or two others that after summer,
7 people are back from vacation, that we needed to
8 proceed to develop procedures, written procedures, to
9 deal with this matter.
10 Q. To your knowledge, was that done?
11 A. I don't know, because I left. I was
12 reassigned shortly thereafter.
13 Q. And that directive was given to
14 Monsignor Cain?
15 MR. WOODS: He didn't call it a directive. I
16 object to the term.
17 BY MS. SOLTAN:
18 Q. I'm sorry. What did you call it?
19 A. I told Monsignor Cain and a couple of others
20 about our meeting at Collegeville, and that it would be
21 very helpful for us, like other dioceses, to develop
22 some written procedures and policies to handle these
23 kinds of matters.
24 Q. Maybe I don't understand the way it works, but
25 I thought you were the boss.
1 I mean, in Stockton, when you're the Bishop,
2 aren't you the head guy?
3 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct you not to
4 answer. Argumentative.
5 BY MS. SOLTAN:
6 Q. I mean, you were the head guy; right?
7 MR. WOODS: Object. Don't answer.
8 MS. SOLTAN: Object on what grounds? You
9 don't like the word "head guy"?
10 MR. WOODS: Yeah. And it doesn't mean
12 BY MS. SOLTAN:
13 Q. You were the highest ranking person at the
14 diocese in terms of the hierarchy, is that correct, in
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So when you were telling Monsignor Cain that
18 you thought it might be a good idea to establish
19 written policies, was that just casual conversation?
20 A. No. It was the end of June, people were
21 beginning to take vacations. And I said as soon as
22 Labor Day is over and people are back, we need to put
23 together a working group and begin this process.
24 Q. Was that a diplomatic way of telling him to go
25 forward and do that?
1 A. That we were all going to be involved in this,
2 not just him.
3 Q. So you were basically giving an instruction
4 that the diocese should do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now you have had an incident of sexual
7 abuse, childhood sexual abuse, that you knew about in
8 19 let's see. Was it 1981 that you said Munoz?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Did you not think it might be a good
11 idea to establish policies of the nature that you
12 recommended in 1985 in 1981, after that occurred?
13 MR. WOODS: Objection. Calls for speculation.
14 You can answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, we already I already
16 had the tools I needed at that time in the code of
17 canon law, which is to remove the faculties and the
18 assignment. I had all I needed to do at the time to
19 deal with that problem.
20 BY MS. SOLTAN:
21 Q. Okay. Did you do any investigation at that
22 time to see if there were any other protections that
23 you could put in place to make sure that that couldn't
24 happen again?
25 MR. WOODS: "At that time," meaning 1981?
1 MS. SOLTAN: Correct.
2 THE WITNESS: No. I thought that was somewhat
3 of an isolated case. And it didn't occur to me at that
4 time that we needed to do that.
5 BY MS. SOLTAN:
6 Q. Why did you think it was isolated?
7 A. It was my first case.
8 Q. When it happened again in 1984, did that
9 change your opinion that maybe you should be doing
10 something to put policies in effect?
11 A. Well, we actually were putting policies in
13 Q. Oh, I didn't know that.
14 What policies were you putting in effect?
15 A. Following the canonical procedure, removing
16 faculties, removing assignment, acting swiftly.
17 Q. Okay. I thought there was no policy.
18 So there was a policy that was being followed;
19 it wasn't just practice?
20 A. The code of canon law gives the Bishops the
21 authority to remove faculties and assignment.
22 Q. Right. That's authority, though. That's
23 different than policies. I'm asking you if you had a
24 policy that you followed with regard to handling sexual
25 abuse claims at either the Fresno or Stockton diocese.
1 Did you?
2 A. Written policies?
3 Q. Any type of policy. I don't know if somebody
4 told you about it. Any policy.
5 A. Well, if it isn't a written policy, it's not a
6 policy in the way we operate.
7 Q. Well, I thought you said earlier that you
8 followed the Word of God. Is that the word you used?
9 MR. WOODS: Object. Argumentative. Instruct
10 the witness not to answer.
11 MS. SOLTAN: I mean, Mr. Manly asked him if
12 there was a policy, and he said the Word of God.
13 MR. HENNIGAN: I don't think so.
14 MR. WOODS: No. That's
15 MS. SOLTAN: Did I misunderstand that?
16 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
17 to answer. It's argumentative.
18 BY MS. SOLTAN:
19 Q. All right. So what policies were you
20 following, if any, in 1981, when Mr. Munoz abused the
22 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
23 to answer.
24 BY MS. SOLTAN:
25 Q. Were there policies you were following?
1 A. I do not know what you mean by "policies."
2 Q. Okay. I only want to know what you mean by
3 "policies," not what I mean.
4 A. Were there written policies to deal
5 specifically with problems of sexual abuse of minors?
6 Is that your question?
7 Q. That's one of my questions.
8 A. And I answered it many times today. No, we
9 did not have, in effect, written policies in the
10 Diocese of Stockton.
11 Q. Right. Perhaps I misunderstood you. But then
12 you went on to say the written policies are canon law.
13 Was the written policy canon law?
14 A. Well, what I said was my authority and my tool
15 to act quickly and swiftly was already there in canon
16 law. I didn't have to have anything else written.
17 Q. Okay. So you didn't feel that there were
18 it was necessary for you to create any policies because
19 you felt that canon law gave you the authority to act
20 if something already occurred; yes?
21 A. In that in that case, the Munoz case, I had
22 all I needed. He was in Mexico. He was not in
23 Stockton. And I could terminate his faculties and his
24 assignment, and I did.
25 Q. Yeah. The thing that bothers me about that,
1 though, is that means you're not going to act until
2 something actually happens; the child has to be hurt
3 before you do something.
4 Was there any policy that you had that allowed
5 you to put protections in place in advance of a child
6 being hurt, to make sure that that didn't happen?
7 MR. WOODS: Object. I object to the form of
8 question as confusing. I object to it as asked and
9 answered a hundred times. I asked I object that
10 it's harassing. He said there was no policy, no
11 written policy. He had authority to act.
12 MS. SOLTAN: Please don't testify, sir. You
13 can state your objections.
14 MR. WOODS: I instruct him not to answer.
15 BY MS. SOLTAN:
16 Q. I'd like to know about hiring practices, both
17 at Fresno and Stockton.
18 Both both Fresno and Stockton had schools;
19 isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Elementary schools that were run by the
23 A. No. The elementary schools are operated by
24 the individual parishes.
25 Q. By the individual parishes. And the
1 individual parishes were owned and operated by the
2 diocese? I'm talking about the time period of 1962 to
3 1980, in Fresno.
4 A. They are all part of the Diocese of Fresno,
6 Q. They were. Okay.
7 So when you were hiring priests and lay
8 employees, in some occasions, that was to have them
9 work with children at elementary schools; is that
11 A. You asked when I was hiring people?
12 Q. Well, as I understand it, in a corporation
13 sole, the Bishop is one and the same with the diocese;
14 right? Isn't that right?
15 MR. WOODS: Object. Calls for a legal
17 BY MS. SOLTAN:
18 Q. Isn't that correct?
19 MR. WOODS: Do you understand the question?
20 THE WITNESS: I I am not capable of
21 defining "corporation sole" legally. So I the
22 there was a schools department.
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. Right.
25 A. The schools department had their policies.
1 They worked for the principals and that. And I was not
2 involved in that at all.
3 Q. Did you as the Bishop you were made a
4 Bishop in 1975 in Fresno, although you had the title of
5 Auxiliary Bishop. And, of course, you were the Bishop
6 of Stockton.
7 Did you have the ultimate authority over the
9 MR. WOODS: That's two questions. As an
10 Auxiliary Bishop in Fresno, did you have authority over
11 the schools? That's question number one.
12 THE WITNESS: Most of that was all delegated
13 out to the superintendent of schools, the pastors, and
14 the principals of the elementary schools.
15 BY MS. SOLTAN:
16 Q. What did you do to supervise the schools to
17 make sure that they were acting appropriately to
18 protect the children?
19 MR. WOODS: What did he do as Auxiliary Bishop
20 in Fresno?
21 THE WITNESS: That was that was not one of
22 my responsibilities.
23 BY MS. SOLTAN:
24 Q. Were there any protections set in terms of
25 written policies with regard to, for example, hiring
1 practices of the school?
2 MR. WOODS: Were there any just so I
3 understand this, were there any written policies
4 relating to hiring for the elementary schools in
5 Fresno, specifically in regards to childhood sexual
7 MS. SOLTAN: Well, I think you're misstating
8 my question. I'm asking about protecting children.
9 MR. WOODS: What kind?
10 MS. SOLTAN: Protecting children, was there
11 any protection?
12 MR. WOODS: Was there any written policy to
13 screen employees concerning possibility of abusing
15 MS. SOLTAN: Right.
16 THE WITNESS: I was never involved in any of
17 the policies or manuals of the school system. It was
18 all handled by the superintendent of schools.
19 BY MS. SOLTAN:
20 Q. Okay. Were there any policies and manuals?
21 A. I simply don't know.
22 Q. How about at Stockton?
23 A. Again, we had a superintendent of schools who
24 handled all of that. And I simply don't know.
25 Q. Were fingerprint checks done of people being
1 interviewed for positions of teachers at the diocese
2 owned and operated by the school by the I'm
3 sorry, at the schools owned and operated by the
5 MR. WOODS: I object to the term "fingerprint
6 checks." I don't know what that means in 1962.
7 MS. SOLTAN: Do you want me to explain what
8 that means?
9 MR. WOODS: Tell us what you want us to
10 interpret it to mean, and then we can answer the
12 BY MS. SOLTAN:
13 Q. Were fingerprints taken of prospective
14 employees of the diocese to make sure that they did not
15 have criminal records prior to the time that you hired
17 MR. WOODS: Any time between '62 and '85?
18 MS. SOLTAN: That is correct.
19 THE WITNESS: I actually do not know. It was
20 not my responsibility.
21 BY MS. SOLTAN:
22 Q. Whose responsibility was it?
23 A. As I stated, the superintendent of schools of
24 the respective diocese.
25 Q. All right. With regard to priests being hired
1 by the Fresno diocese or the Stockton diocese, was any
2 type of a background check done by the diocese prior
3 to I don't know if the right word is "hiring" the
5 MR. WOODS: Yeah. I'm going to object to the
6 form of the question. When you say background check on
7 a priest, do you mean could you tell us what you
8 mean? You mean something other than watching them in
9 seminary for years and and whatever happens to them
10 in formation at the seminary?
11 MS. SOLTAN: Well, that's an interesting
13 Q. Are you telling me that all priests were hired
14 directly out of seminary?
15 MR. WOODS: Is the question: Are all priests
16 hired for Fresno and Stockton in those years directly
17 from a seminary?
18 MS. SOLTAN: You don't have to restate my
19 question. I think he can hear it.
20 MR. WOODS: I just want to make sure I have it
22 THE WITNESS: Most of the priests who were
23 studying in a seminary at some location were studying
24 for either the Diocese of Monterey Fresno or, later,
25 the Diocese of Fresno or the Diocese of Stockton. Most
1 of the priests ordained were studying, actually, for
2 the respective diocese.
3 BY MS. SOLTAN:
4 Q. I'm asking if you did background checks to
5 make sure that anybody you hired didn't have criminal
7 MR. WOODS: Okay. And I object to the
8 question. What do you mean by "background checks"?
9 BY MS. SOLTAN:
10 Q. Do you understand what I mean, sir?
11 A. No. It's very broad.
12 Q. Did you have a policy at either or was it
13 the practice of the Stockton diocese or the Fresno
14 diocese at the time you were at either diocese to look
15 into the history of the people that you were going to
16 hire, to see if they had criminal activity in their
17 past, prior to the time they were hired?
18 A. Practice then, in those years, was to have
19 letters of recommendation from the person's pastor, and
20 that type of recommendation. We did not had not
21 evolved yet to the point we are today, where we have
22 far greater application process and evaluations,
23 et cetera.
24 Q. Okay. Well, that's what I want to know.
25 Let's talk about Oliver O'Grady.
1 Did you have letters written letters of
2 recommendation before Oliver O'Grady was hired?
3 A. Oliver O'Grady was there when I got there.
4 Q. Did his file reflect written letters of
5 recommendation by anyone?
6 A. I believe they reflect his progress in the
8 Q. So there were seminary records in his
9 personnel file?
10 MR. HENNIGAN: I'm not sure you let him finish
11 the answer to the question.
12 MS. SOLTAN: I beg your pardon?
13 MR. HENNIGAN: I think you stepped on his
15 BY MS. SOLTAN:
16 Q. I beg your pardon. Were you not finished?
17 A. You confused me again.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Why don't we go back to the
19 previous question, so you can complete your answer.
20 MR. WOODS: Okay. You better read it back,
21 and the answer that we had.
22 (The record was read as follows:
23 "Did his file reflect written letters
24 of recommendation by anyone?"
25 "Answer: I believe they reflect his
1 progress in the seminary.")
2 THE WITNESS: And what else do you are you
4 BY MS. SOLTAN:
5 Q. I was asking if there you believe that
6 there were records about his progress in the seminary
7 in his personnel file at Stockton. Did you think there
9 A. There would have been seminary reports on his
10 progress during that time in his file.
11 Q. What else would there be in that file?
12 A. Usually, assignments.
13 Q. Prior assignments before coming to the
15 A. No. No. What files are kept when the
16 priest actually, you know, arrives.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you testified in an
18 earlier deposition that when you arrived at Stockton,
19 during the first few months I can't remember the
20 time period, but I was something to the effect of the
21 first few months you made a point of visiting each
22 and every parish to meet each and every priest. Did I
23 understand that correctly?
24 A. Not exactly.
25 Q. Okay. What part didn't I understand?
1 A. I arrived towards the middle of April 1980
2 1980. Bishop Guilfoyle, my predecessor, had been ill
3 and unable to confer confirmation in the parishes.
4 Keep in mind, we had 31 parishes, I believe, at the
6 So between middle of April and middle of June,
7 I was going to be in almost every one of those
8 parishes, conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
9 And so during the course of that, I knew that I would
10 be meeting all of the priests as I went.
11 Q. Okay. When you arrived at Stockton to take
12 over as the Bishop, did you do, what I would call as a
13 business lawyer, due diligence with regard to the
14 status of the diocese?
15 MR. WOODS: Object to the form of the
16 question. Object to the term
17 BY MS. SOLTAN:
18 Q. Do you know what I mean by that, sir?
19 A. Actually, I do not.
20 Q. All right. What did you do to apprise
21 yourself of the financial condition of the diocese at
22 the time that you arrived
23 MR. WOODS: Object as irrelevant
24 BY MS. SOLTAN:
25 Q. in 1980?
1 MR. WOODS: to the subject matter, totally
2 irrelevant to the subject matter of this case.
3 But I'll let him answer because I assume this
4 is preceding something that will be relevant.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, again, I was almost
6 totally involved in the next first two months, of
7 going out to the parishes with confirmation to get all
8 of these performed prior to mid June, when young people
9 would leave school. So that that was my primary
10 responsibility right then.
11 BY MS. SOLTAN:
12 Q. All right. But what I'm asking you is: Did
13 you other than that, did you review any of the
14 records of the diocese?
15 A. Not specifically. I don't recall reviewing
17 Q. How did you know there were 31 parishes?
18 A. Well, I looked that up in the Catholic
20 Q. In the Catholic Directory. How did you know
21 who the priests were?
22 A. Actually, I only knew one or two priests. And
23 I would then meet them as I went around to the various
25 Q. So you reviewed absolutely nothing before you
2 A. I don't recall reviewing files and documents
3 prior to visiting.
4 Q. Did you at any time investigate the background
5 of any of the existing priests of the Diocese of
6 Stockton when you arrived?
7 A. When I arrived? I don't believe so.
8 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. Excuse me for just a
10 I wanted to know if we can take a break,
11 please. I've been asked by counsel for a brief recess.
12 MR. WOODS: Sure.
13 MS. SOLTAN: Thank you.
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape
15 number two of the videotaped deposition of Cardinal
16 Roger Mahony. The time is 2:42.
17 (A brief recess was taken.)
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
19 The time is 3:03. This is tape number three of the
20 videotaped deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony. The
21 time is 3:03.
22 BY MS. SOLTAN:
23 Q. Cardinal, quickly because I've been meaning to
24 ask you throughout. You're wearing a sling today?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I don't want to invade your privacy about what
2 the nature of your injury is, but are you in pain or
3 under the influence of any pain killers that may affect
4 your ability to give testimony today?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. All right. When we took our
7 break, right before we took our break, I was asking you
8 about what I called due diligence with regard to you
9 arriving at the Diocese of Stockton so just to bring
10 you back to where I was.
11 What I want to know is what you did in terms
12 of reviewing documentation upon your arrival at
13 Stockton to bring yourself up to date on the doings of
14 the diocese? What did you do?
15 A. Well, in most cases when a Bishop arrives in a
16 new diocese, his first duties normally are to get to
17 know the people of the diocese, to try to visit as many
18 places in the diocese, to meet as many people as
19 possible, and that's normally the first things that you
20 do. One does not spend time with documents and things.
21 That just simply not the custom of your entry into
22 the diocese is as their new shepherd is to get to know
24 Q. And the custom that you're referring to, is
25 that a policy that's written somewhere?
1 A. It's not a policy as such. It's just how you
2 are coming to a new place, the people want to meet you,
3 and you want to meet them.
4 Q. Right, and I appreciate that, but I'm just
5 curious because you were at Fresno from 1962 to 1980
6 and had never gone to any diocese, how did you know
7 that that was the custom?
8 A. The fact that I was going to a new place, they
9 did not know me. I did not know them. I was very
10 anxious to get around the diocese and meet everyone.
11 Q. Right. Now as the Bishop of Stockton, you are
12 the person who has the sole legal authority to sign
13 contracts, for example, on behalf of the diocese;
15 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the first part?
16 Q. As the Bishop of Stockton, you were the only
17 person who had the legal authority to sign documents on
18 behalf of the diocese; correct?
19 A. No, that is not correct.
20 Q. Oh, who has legal authority other than
22 MR. WOODS: I object. It's irrelevant to the
23 subject matter, but I'll let him answer.
24 THE WITNESS: As a Bishop, we can designate
25 someone to be attorney in fact and allow them to sign
1 the contracts and papers.
2 BY MS. SOLTAN:
3 Q. Did you do that ever during the five years
4 that you were at Stockton?
5 MR. WOODS: Object. Irrelevant to the subject
6 matter of the dispute.
7 THE WITNESS: I believe that I did designate
8 Monsignor Cain.
9 BY MS. SOLTAN:
10 Q. And what were the circumstances of appointing
11 him as attorney in fact?
12 A. I don't remember specifically, but I don't
13 remember specifically, but I think he was
14 attorney in fact when I got there.
15 Q. Signed by the previous Bishop?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So did you ever appoint him as your
18 attorney in fact?
19 A. I would have to review the records to be
21 Q. What records would you review?
22 A. The assignment record.
23 Q. Whose assignment record would that be?
24 A. The assignment of duties to the Vicar General.
25 Q. His personnel file you mean?
1 A. Well, normally there would be a special file
2 for legal documents, and if I assigned him as
3 attorney in fact, most likely it would be in that file.
4 Q. What about INS documents? Where did you keep
5 documents having to do with sponsorship of priests,
6 extern priests? That's the wrong phrase, I'm sorry.
7 Of priests that came from other areas outside the
8 United States, where were those documents kept?
9 A. So you are referring to non U.S. citizens?
10 Q. That's correct.
11 A. I presume they would be kept in their
12 personnel file.
13 Q. In the personnel file of the individual
15 A. I presume so, yes.
16 Q. So Oliver O'Grady's documents with regard to
17 being a citizen of Ireland but sponsored to be in the
18 United States to work at the Diocese of Stockton should
19 be in his personnel file?
20 A. I would presume so.
21 Q. And Camacho's documents with regard to him
22 being given faculties to work under the auspices of a
23 green card in the United States should have been in his
25 A. I presume so but with the caveat that there
1 may have been a general file for INS filings, and I
2 simply do not know which file they used.
3 Q. Okay. And what about W 2s or 1099s for
4 withholding of payroll information for employees, were
5 those kept in their payroll files of priests?
6 MR. WOODS: Payroll files?
7 MS. SOLTAN: I'm sorry.
8 Q. Personnel files of priests?
9 A. At that time and in many dioceses today,
10 priests do not receive their payment from the diocese
11 itself but from the school or the parish, and
12 therefore, payment, sources of payment, W 2 forms, come
13 from the source of where the funds come from.
14 Q. Are you saying that there were separate
15 payroll returns filed by the parishes as opposed to the
17 A. I'm saying that if a priest were an associate
18 or a pastor in a parish and is paid through the payroll
19 of the parish, usually then the parish issues the W 2
21 Q. You said when you were at Fresno that you were
22 aware that there were what I will call subsecret files
23 in Fresno; yes?
24 MR. WOODS: Now it's called subsecret?
25 MR. HENNIGAN: I never hear of subsecret
2 MS. SOLTAN: I'm sorry. I thought it was
3 referred to as subsecreto.
4 MR. WOODS: The witness refers to them as
5 confidential or restricted access files.
6 BY MS. SOLTAN:
7 Q. Okay. What phrase are you most comfortable
8 with for me to call it?
9 A. I think restricted access is the best way.
10 Q. Okay. With regard to restricted access files,
11 access was restricted to whom?
12 A. In the Diocese of Fresno you are asking?
13 Q. That is correct.
14 MR. WOODS: You are talking about the
15 personnel restricted access files?
16 MS. SOLTAN: As opposed to something else?
17 Q. Your counsel is making a distinction that I
18 hadn't heard?
19 MR. WOODS: Legal files? What kind of files?
20 BY MS. SOLTAN:
21 Q. When you are talking about restricted access
22 files, are you only talking about files that pertain to
23 confidential information about personnel or are you
24 talking about a much wider scope of documentation?
25 A. I'm sorry. I'm quite lost in this train of
2 Q. Cardinal, when you said restricted access
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. please describe for me what's in restricted
6 access files.
7 A. Well, restricted access file in terms of
9 Q. I mean in terms of everything. I want to know
10 what restricted access files are.
11 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. You've been
12 talking all day about confidential files of priests.
13 Okay? When you go to a new general question, I have to
14 object unless you are referring back to the previous
15 testimony. We been assuming all along you are
16 referring back to the previous testimony because that's
17 only part that's relevant.
18 MS. SOLTAN: You know what they say about
20 Q. What did you mean when you said restricted
21 access files?
22 A. As I said this morning, we were talking about
23 priest personnel files.
24 Q. Are there restricted access files other than
25 priest personnel files?
1 A. I'm really not sure.
2 Q. When you were at Fresno you said that you
3 deposited documents into the restricted access files.
4 What type of documents did you deposit into the
5 restricted access files?
6 A. I testified that I very infrequently would
7 have occasion to put something in a file. Usually had
8 to do with a change of possibly immigration status or
9 some other legal matter involving a priest.
10 Q. So immigration information might be in the
11 personnel files, it might be in a separate immigration
12 file, and it might be in the restricted access file?
13 A. Actually, even more places. The
14 standardization of filing has kind of evolved so that,
15 for example, one could find, say, an immigration paper
16 filed in the priest's file itself.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Or in the parish where he was assigned at the
19 time or in a general immigration service file. A
20 number of places. It just depended on who was filing
21 at the time where they thought it was most appropriate
22 to put it.
23 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that there could
24 be a wide variety of documents that are kept in any
25 particular diocese restricted access files; is that
1 fair to say?
2 A. There could be, yes, there could be a variety
3 of things in there.
4 Q. Okay. When you went to Stockton, did you take
5 efforts to find out what type of documents were kept in
6 the confidential files of Stockton?
7 A. Not immediately, no.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. Because my first priority was to get out to
10 the parishes, visit the people, get to know the priests
11 and the whole Diocese of Stockton. That was my first
13 Q. Did you were you briefed with regard to
14 potential liabilities against the Diocese of Stockton
15 by anyone when you became Bishop?
16 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the extent
17 it calls for attorney client communications. Please
18 exclude those.
19 BY MS. SOLTAN:
20 Q. You can answer, sir.
21 A. Again, could you repeat it?
22 Q. Were you briefed with regard to potential
23 liabilities of the Diocese of Stockton after you
24 arrived or when you arrived and became Bishop of
1 A. I do not recall any legal briefing.
2 Q. I didn't ask legal briefing. Were you briefed
3 by anyone with regard to potential liability? Sir,
4 that could include outstanding contracts, disputed
5 monies owed, potential lawsuits because of sexual abuse
6 claims against the diocese. There could be a whole
7 plethora of things that could be a potential
8 liabilities against the diocese. I'm asking you as the
9 chief officer of the diocese, did you take any efforts
10 to find out what the potential liabilities of the
11 diocese are when you arrived?
12 MR. WOODS: Object the form of question.
13 Overly broad.
14 THE WITNESS: I can't recall anyone
15 specifically saying these are legal liabilities of the
16 diocese. My focus was on getting out into the
18 BY MS. SOLTAN:
19 Q. If no one told you, did you take any
20 independent effort to ascertain what those potential
21 liabilities would be including potential sexual abuse
22 claims against the diocese?
23 A. I honestly didn't recall at this point any
24 legal actions against the Diocese of Stockton when I
25 got there.
1 Q. Did you take any action to ascertain whether
2 there had been any claims against what I'll call
3 sitting priests at the Diocese of Stockton with regard
4 to sex abuse when you got there?
5 A. Did I take any action?
6 Q. Did you do anything to find out if you had any
7 pedophiles working as priests in your diocese?
8 MR. WOODS: Pedophile search?
9 MS. SOLTAN: Pedophile is almost too narrow a
11 Q. Any person who had in the past been accused of
12 acting inappropriately sexually with minors?
13 A. Did I initiate such a thing?
14 Q. That's correct.
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Did you delegate that to anyone else?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. So no action was taken upon your arrival at
19 Stockton to determine if you had any potential sex
20 offenders working for the diocese?
21 A. Well, I would presumed if that was the case
22 someone would have told me.
23 Q. And who would have told you?
24 A. One of the officials of the diocese.
25 Q. Like who?
1 A. The Vicar General, Chancellor.
2 Q. Did you ask them?
3 A. I don't recall asking specifically.
4 MS. SOLTAN: I'm going to turnover the reins
5 to someone else at this time. Thank you, Cardinal.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Want to go off the record?
7 MS. SOLTAN: Just for a brief moment.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The
9 time is 3:16.
10 (A brief recess was taken.)
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
12 The time is 3:17.
15 BY MR. SIMONS:
16 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Rick Simons, and
17 I'm the plaintiffs' liason counsel in the Clergy III
18 proceedings in Northern California. How do you do?
19 A. Fine. Thank you.
20 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about
21 things before the Collegeville conference of 1985.
22 Before that time, in your experience would it have been
23 inappropriate for a priest to have a child sit on his
25 A. During what period of time?
1 Q. Before the Collegeville conference of 1985?
2 A. It really depends on the circumstance.
3 Q. It would not be inappropriate in and of itself
4 to have a priest have a child sit on his lap before
6 A. Could have been a relative. Could have been a
7 close friend. At that time, I would not consider that
8 inappropriate in itself. It always depends on the
9 circumstances obviously.
10 Q. Would it have been inappropriate before 1985
11 for a priest to bring a minor child to his private
12 bedroom in the rectory?
13 A. Would it have been appropriate did you say?
14 Q. Inappropriate?
15 A. Inappropriate. I honestly don't know.
16 Depends on the circumstances of the case, but in those
17 years, children, young people, adults coming in and out
18 of rectories was not uncommon.
19 Q. Was it uncommon during those years before 1985
20 to have children coming in and out of the private
21 bedrooms of the priests within the rectory?
22 A. I would say that was not common.
23 Q. Was there in your experience a prohibition
24 against priests bringing minors to their bedrooms
25 within the rectory before 1985?
1 A. I would think that would have been just an
2 unwritten common understanding that private living
3 spaces were just for the priests.
4 Q. Before 1985, would it have been suspicious for
5 possible sexual misconduct for a priest to bring a
6 child to his private bedroom in the rectory?
7 A. Again depending on the circumstances, but in
8 those days I can recall priests bringing alter service
9 up to give them something to take to the sacristy a
10 missal or various things. So it wouldn't have been a
11 common suspicion. It certainly would not have been
12 common practice.
13 Q. Would it have been appropriate before 1985 for
14 a priest to have a child spend the night with him in a
16 A. I think that would have been highly
18 Q. Would that conduct, having the child spend the
19 night with a priest in a priest's bedroom, have been
20 suspicious before 1985 for possible sexual misconduct?
21 A. I think it would have been suspicious on all
23 Q. Would it have been inappropriate before 1985
24 for a priest to provide alcohol to a minor?
25 A. Yes, definitely.
1 Q. Would it have been inappropriate before 1985
2 for a priest to kiss a child on the mouth?
3 A. I think in most circumstances that really
4 would have been inappropriate.
5 Q. Would that have been suspicious for possible
6 grooming or other preclude to sexual misconduct between
7 the priest and the child?
8 MR. WOODS: Based on his understanding before
10 MR. SIMONS: Yes, before 1985.
11 MR. WOODS: Going all the way back to '62?
12 MR. SIMONS: And whatever his understanding
13 was for before that.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, since I don't personally
15 recall ever seeing that happen, you know, firsthand, I
16 didn't really think about it.
17 BY MR. SIMONS:
18 Q. Based on your experience with regard to other
19 diocese outside of Fresno and Stockton, would those
20 activities that you have just told me would be
21 inappropriate also be inappropriate everywhere in
22 California in every diocese?
23 A. Well, of course, I can speak best to Fresno
24 and Stockton, that's where I was, but it would be my
25 assumption that in general those kinds of practices
1 would not have been condoned.
2 Q. You said there were some circumstances where a
3 priest might with good reason bring a child to his
4 bedroom. Was there any time in which a priest would
5 have been acting appropriately before 1985 in bringing
6 a child to his private bedroom in the rectory and
7 closing the door with no one else present?
8 A. I think it would be helpful if you can repeat
9 it again for me.
10 Q. Yes. Before 1985, would it have been
11 inappropriate under any circumstances for a priest to
12 take a child unchaperoned to his private bedroom in the
13 rectory and to close the door?
14 A. Again having never seen that firsthand myself,
15 it just never occurred to me that that could or could
16 not be done and again depends on the circumstances.
17 Was the priest there to give him something and the door
18 closed on its own. It depends. It would not have been
19 normal practice.
20 Q. Would that practice of having a priest take a
21 child to his bedroom and closing the door have been
22 suspicious for possible sexual misconduct before 1985?
23 A. There certainly could be grounds for that
24 suspicion, yes.
25 Q. If an employee of the diocese learned of one
1 of the different types of inappropriate conduct we have
2 just discussed before 1985, that was suspicious for
3 possible sexual misconduct, would that employee no
4 matter what position they might have from housekeeper
5 up to pastor have an obligation in your view to report
6 the misconduct or the inappropriate conduct?
7 MR. WOODS: Calls for an expert opinion.
8 Calls for speculation.
9 THE WITNESS: Absent a specific concrete case.
10 It's very difficult to respond to your question.
11 BY MR. SIMONS:
12 Q. All right. If a housekeeper in a rectory
13 observed conduct on the part of a priest which the
14 housekeeper recognized as suspicious for possible
15 sexual misconduct, would the housekeeper be expected
16 during the time that you were a Bishop or Auxiliary
17 Bishop to report that to someone in a position of
19 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. That is a
20 hypothetical not based on the facts of any case that I
21 know of and calls for an expert opinion, and I'll
22 instruct him not to answer.
23 MR. SIMONS: Well, it is relevant to some of
24 the cases in Clergy III. There are specific cases with
25 that factual pattern. I'm not surprised that you would
1 not necessarily be acquainted with those.
2 MR. WOODS: Do you want to tell us what case
3 are you talking about?
4 MR. SIMONS: Robero.
5 MR. WOODS: And give us the exact facts.
6 MR. SIMONS: Yeah.
7 Q. The Father Robero cases where the housekeeper
8 observes a priest taking a child during the day to his
9 private bedroom in the rectory and closing the door in
10 your understanding pre 1985
11 MR. HENNIGAN: Which diocese?
12 MR. SIMONS: This is Oakland. San Francisco
13 or Oakland.
14 MR. HENNIGAN: So this question has nothing to
15 do with Stockton and Fresno.
16 MR. SIMONS: It has nothing to do with
17 Stockton or Fresno directly. I has to do with policies
18 and practices of the church in general.
19 MR. WOODS: We're not getting into the
20 policies and practices of the church generally. Just
21 this Bishop's policies and practices and customs and
22 ways of conducting himself. No hypotheticals and no
23 speculative questions.
24 MR. SIMONS: Well, while I move on to another
25 subject matter, I would request that you review the
1 court's order on Page 3, lines 19 to 22 as to the
2 propriety of that particular set of questions. And I
3 will move on in the mean time.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's getting dark. Is it
5 all right if I put a light on?
6 MR. SIMONS: All right with me.
7 MR. WOODS: I'm going the read what you just
9 "The deposition in question should
10 concern factual matters within Cardinal
11 Mahony's knowledge and should not concern
12 his current opinions or his evaluation of
13 hypothetical situations."
14 MR. SIMONS: Actually, that's not what I
15 referred to. I referred to the next sentence which is
16 the "however."
17 MR. WOODS: That's one I like.
18 MR. SIMONS: I'm sure it is.
19 MR. WOODS: What's the one you like?
20 MR. SIMONS: I like the one that says "however
21 he may be asked questions."
22 MR. WOODS: "Concerning the policy and
23 practices of church."
24 MR. SIMONS: "And what his thoughts and
25 opinions were on relevant topics at the time periods."
1 MR. WOODS: At the time period. Okay.
2 MR. SIMONS: That's what I'm asking about.
3 MR. WOODS: In his diocese in his custom and
5 MR. SIMONS: I'm asking about policies and
6 practices of the church. If he doesn't have any
8 MR. WOODS: The church is a misnomer. You are
9 talking about a diocese.
10 MR. SIMONS: I'll let the misnomer part be a
11 subject of discussion between you and the judge.
12 Q. Would a priest in your experience have an
13 obligation to report to his Ordinary or a delegated
14 authority of the Ordinary suspicions of possible sexual
15 misconduct by another priest?
16 A. Yes. In my experience in Fresno and Stockton,
18 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that your
19 experience in Fresno and Stockton would be different
20 than the experience of other ordinaries in California
21 during that same time period before 1985?
22 A. Well, having served in three dioceses now, I
23 know very vividly the practices and that varied widely
24 depending on the local circumstances, the size of the
25 diocese, the number of people, the number of priests.
1 So it's very difficult to speculate about places I have
2 never served.
3 Q. Departing from general subjects of interest to
4 the specific question of reporting conduct that is
5 suspicious for possible sexual molestation of children,
6 do you have any reason to believe that the policies and
7 practices would have been any different in any diocese
8 in California than in Fresno and Stockton?
9 MR. WOODS: I object. It's irrelevant to the
10 scope. It's beyond the scope of this deposition. And
11 his knowledge is not personal knowledge.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that Father
13 Antonio Munoz's case a good example of what you are
14 talking about where these families went to see Father
15 Fernando Villalobos and told him about this problem and
16 he came immediately to me. I think that's a good
17 example of having Father Villalobos aware of credible
18 evidence of sexual abuse and immediately brought to it
19 the Bishop. I think that is very appropriate.
20 BY MR. SIMONS:
21 Q. Would it have been inappropriate for
22 Father Villalobos to withhold from his Bishop that
24 A. It would have been inappropriate for
25 Father Villalobos to withhold from me as the Bishop at
1 the time that information.
2 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that that
3 standard you have just described would be different
4 before 1985 in any diocese within California?
5 MR. WOODS: Object. Beyond the scope of the
7 THE WITNESS: It's very difficult for me to
8 testify about what other Bishops did or did not do or
9 would have done in another diocese. I simply don't
11 BY MR. SIMONS:
12 Q. In 1984, you now know that there was a police
13 investigation of Oliver O'Grady; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were not informed of that investigation
16 while it was in progress; is that true?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When were you first informed of a police
19 investigation into Oliver O'Grady?
20 A. Sometime towards the end of October I was
21 informed by Monsignor Cain that the Stockton Police
22 Department was investigating a report of suspected
23 child abuse that had been filed with the Child
24 Protection Services.
25 Q. Did you then personally review the
1 confidential file for Oliver O'Grady at that time?
2 A. At that time, I did not.
3 Q. Did you request someone else do so?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Why not?
6 A. Well, during this time I was very close to
7 leaving the diocese for a number of commitments that
8 would bring me back at the end of November, and I was
9 absent during virtually this entire time. So I felt
10 the matter was being handled by the Stockton Police
11 Department, a full investigation was under way, and
12 whatever that brought forth, we would act on.
13 Q. You would have known as you prepared for your
14 other duties and demands at that time that the Stockton
15 police would not have had access to the confidential
16 files kept by the Diocese of Stockton; correct?
17 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. I object.
18 That's absolutely speculative. What prevents the
19 police from asking for it and looking for it,
20 subpoenaing it or anything else?
21 BY MR. SIMONS:
22 Q. Did you know whether or not at that time that
23 the Stockton Police Department were privy to any
24 information contained in the confidential file about
25 Oliver O'Grady?
1 A. As I stated, I was not in Stockton during all
2 of this time, and so I do not know what kind of
3 conversations they had with our attorneys or other
4 officials of the diocese.
5 Q. Are you aware of anyone who advised the
6 Stockton Police Department during the course of
7 the 1984 investigation into Oliver O'Grady
8 that the diocese had confidential files concerning
10 A. Was I informed?
11 Q. Yes. Are you aware of anyone who informed
12 the Stockton Police Department in 1984 that the Diocese
13 of Stockton had confidential files concerning
14 Oliver O'Grady?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you instruct when you learned of this
17 investigation anyone under your supervision to inform
18 the Stockton Police Department that there was a
19 confidential file concerning Oliver O'Grady?
20 MR. WOODS: Assumes that he knew there was a
21 confidential file on Oliver O'Grady so I object to the
22 form of the question.
23 THE WITNESS: I was totally unaware of any
24 secret file dealing with Father O'Grady at the time so
25 it never occurred to me.
1 BY MR. SIMONS:
2 Q. During the time that you were Bishop of
3 Stockton, is it correct that there were approximately
4 50 to 60 priests?
5 A. I think approximately 36 to 38 diocesan
6 priests and 20 to 22 religious priests.
7 Q. During this time, how many of those priests
8 had a confidential or secret file?
9 A. I really don't know.
10 Q. Was there more than one secret file at the
11 time of 1984 when this investigation into Oliver
12 O'Grady was occurring?
13 A. You mean was there one secret file cabinet or
14 individual file?
15 Q. No. Was there more than one individual file?
16 A. My recollection was that within sometime
17 within that first year I saw the file cabinet that had
18 these files, and it was very thin. There were just a
19 few files in there, and I never even bothered to look
20 at it. Look at them.
21 Q. Were the files that were very few in that
22 cabinet organized alphabetically?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Did you ever have occasion to put any material
25 concerning Father Camacho into his confidential file?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you have any occasion to put any
3 information concerning Father Munoz into his
4 confidential file?
5 A. No, I did not personally.
6 Q. Had you ever placed any information concerning
7 any priest into any confidential file prior to 1984
8 when the police investigation was under way?
9 A. No, I can't recall myself personally placing
10 anything in those files.
11 Q. What was it that had caused you to open the
12 file drawer and see that there were only a few files in
14 A. I actually was being given a tour of some of
15 the areas of the matrimonial tribunal to see where the
16 marriage cases were and all of that, and one of priests
17 said and here are the secret files or that and opened
18 the cabinet. I think he had a key. There was just
19 practically nothing there and closed the door. That
20 was the end of it.
21 Q. You had a key to the secret files?
22 A. No, actually I did not.
23 Q. You had access to the secret files any time
24 you wished by requesting someone else to open it?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. In the approximately five years that you were
2 Bishop of Stockton, did you ever once look through to
3 see whether there was a secret file kept on any
4 individual priest?
5 A. No, during my time as Bishop I don't recall
6 ever going directly to the confidential files.
7 Q. When Father Munoz was reported to you, you
8 did not look to see if there was a confidential file
9 with any history concerning that priest; is that
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. When Father Camacho was reported, you did not
13 look to see if there was a confidential file concerning
14 him either; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Had you ever instructed Monsignor Cain to not
17 allow you to be in the loop, if you will, of knowledge
18 concerning those priests in your Diocese of Stockton
19 who had been accused in the past of sexual abuse of
21 A. Did I instruct Monsignor Cain?
22 Q. Not to tell you?
23 A. To keep me out of the loop?
24 Q. Yes.
25 MR. WOODS: Out of the loop.
1 BY MR. SIMONS:
2 Q. Out of the loop?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. You mentioned that when you testified in the
5 Howard case in Stockton that at that time you did not
6 recall either Father Munoz or Father Camacho; however,
7 since then your recollection has been refreshed. As we
8 have sat here today, have you remembered any other
9 priests within the Diocese of Stockton during the time
10 that you were Bishop who were reported to you as having
11 allegedly committed sexual abuse of a child?
12 A. You mean today? Have I? No, I have no new
13 information today.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the name *****?
15 A. *****?
16 Q. *****.
17 A. ***** is the first name?
18 Q. ***** first name, ***** last name.
19 A. ***** the last name. No.
20 Q. Are you familiar with ********?
21 A. Not that I know of.
22 Q. Was there a Father John Henry who served under
23 you when you were the Bishop of Stockton?
24 A. The last name again, please.
25 Q. John Henry.
1 A. John Henry. Not that I'm aware of.
2 Q. Do you recall an occasion when you were the
3 Bishop of Stockton when a Filipino mother and teenage
4 son met with you to complain about a priest committing
5 sexual abuse on that teenage boy?
6 A. Could you give me a date or names or places?
7 Q. The name would be ********* and his mother
8 *****. The priest would be father John Henry or
9 Father Oliver O'Grady, and the place would be either
10 St. George's or Presentation parish church?
11 MR. WOODS: And the time period?
12 MR. SIMONS: 1981.
13 THE WITNESS: That somebody approached me and
14 told me father John Henry was abusing a child?
15 BY MR. SIMONS:
16 Q. Had abused a teenage minor, *********.
17 MR. WOODS: You also said or Father O'Grady.
18 MR. SIMONS: Yes.
19 MR. WOODS: You want either one?
20 MR. SIMONS: Either one.
21 THE WITNESS: I have absolutely no
22 recollection of that.
23 BY MR. SIMONS:
24 Q. Were you familiar with Father Fernando
1 A. Familiar meaning?
2 Q. Did you know him?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Was he a priest under your supervision in the
5 Diocese of Stockton?
6 A. Yes, he was a Franciscan priest and so he was
7 under the Franciscan provincial, but also served as my
8 Vicar for Spanish speaking. So in that regard he was
9 under me.
10 Q. During the time that you were Bishop of
11 Stockton, did you ever receive a report that Father
12 Fernando Villalobos had committed sexual abuse on a
14 A. No.
15 MR. SIMONS: Let me show you the two pages
16 comprising one letter of August 23rd, 1976, which was
17 marked as Exhibits 5 and 6 to your deposition in 1997
18 and has previously courteously been provided by your
20 MR. WOODS: Do you have another copy?
21 MS. SOLTAN: I have a copy. I get you one.
22 MR. WOODS: Can we mark this as Exhibit 12, a
23 letter dated August 23, 1976, from Father O'Grady to
25 You can start reading it.
1 MR. HENNIGAN: Do you have another copy?
2 MS. SOLTAN: I have it. I just need to need
3 to organize. Here they are. I found it. Do you want
4 one in front of you?
5 MR. SIMONS: Do you recall having seen?
6 MR. WOODS: Let me finish reading it, if you
7 don't mind.
8 MR. SIMONS: My apologies.
9 MR. WOODS: Okay.
10 BY MR. SIMONS:
11 Q. Do you see the handwritten notes that are
12 faintly copied at the top of the first page of this
14 A. There are a few words that I can make out
15 about half of it I can't or more that I can't.
16 Q. There appears to be some initials just to the
17 right of the August 23rd, 1976 date. Do you know whose
18 initials those are?
19 A. No. In fact, I can't tell what letters those
20 are. First looks like an M, but I can't tell.
21 Q. Other than at your deposition in 1997 and at
22 the trial in the Howard case, have you seen this letter
23 in any context, any place other than a litigation
25 A. No.
1 Q. During the time that you were Bishop of
2 Stockton, did you ever see this letter?
3 A. No.
4 Q. During the time that you were Bishop of
5 Stockton, did Monsignor Cain ever advise you that
6 Oliver O'Grady had written this letter?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You told me earlier that a priest aware of
9 sexual misconduct on the part of another priest in your
10 view should report that to a superior. Does that
11 include Monsignor Cain reporting this letter to you?
12 MR. WOODS: I object to the preamble. I
13 object that it does not summarize the prior testimony
14 accurately, and he's not asking you to verify any part
15 of the preamble. He's just asking you in your view at
16 this time should Cain during the time that you were
17 in Stockton, should Cain have reported this letter to
19 THE WITNESS: Is that correct?
20 BY MR. SIMONS:
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I would say, yes, he should have.
23 Q. Should Monsignor Cain have notified the
24 Stockton police in 1984 of the existence of this letter
25 when they were investigating Oliver O'Grady?
1 A. I'm not sure what Monsignor Cain told the
2 police or the diocese attorney during that time.
3 Q. I understand that. My question is should
4 Monsignor Cain in the performance of the duties to
5 which you assigned him have notified the Stockton
6 police of the existence of this letter in November of
8 A. It was my understanding when this letter was
9 written on August 23rd, 1976, that Monsignor Cain was
10 on vacation, and that upon his return, Bishop Guilfoyle
11 had told him that this matter had come up while he was
12 away, and that my recollection of Monsignor Cain's
13 deposition and testimony was that Bishop Guilfoyle said
14 something like inappropriate touching. And so
15 Monsignor Cain testifies that he does not at all recall
16 this as sexual abuse but simply as something of
17 inappropriate touching and that Monsignor Cain was not
18 involved in the discussions with this matter.
19 Q. Before 1985, would you have considered
20 inappropriate touching of a child by a priest to be
21 sexual abuse?
22 MR. WOODS: What do you mean by inappropriate
24 MR. SIMONS: That was his phrase. That's why
25 I'm using it.
1 MR. WOODS: It could be anything.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, I would have tried to find
3 out what exactly happened.
4 BY MR. SIMONS:
5 Q. Do you have any understanding independent of
6 what you have read in depositions of why this letter
7 was not given to the Stockton police in 1984?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Would the events that are recorded in this
10 letter disqualify Father O'Grady from being appointed
11 as parish excuse me as pastor of his own parish?
12 A. Certainly had we been aware of prior
13 difficulty, it certainly would have had to have been
14 evaluated before his assignment to administrator or
16 MR. SIMONS: Let me show you what was marked
17 as Exhibit number 35 in your deposition from 1997,
18 which is a letter of December 29, 1984.
19 MR. WOODS: We'll mark this, I guess, as
20 Exhibit 13.
21 MR. SIMONS: Please.
22 MR. WOODS: This is a letter report of Dr.
23 Morris dated December 29, 1984, to Bishop Mahony. Do
24 you have a copy for us to read?
25 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 12 and 13 were
1 marked for identification.)
2 MR. WOODS: Okay.
3 BY MR. SIMONS:
4 Q. Do you recall receiving this letter?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. When you received it did you review it?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And when you read the second paragraph, did
9 it give rise to a suspicion in your mind that
10 Father O'Grady had defects related to the matter of sex
11 as far as his own psychological makeup was concerned?
12 MR. WOODS: Defects?
13 MR. HENNIGAN: I think you misread it. It
14 says defect in maturation.
15 MR. WOODS: I have a problem with the word
16 defect. You are using it in some psychological
17 connotation as a term of art or just defect meaning any
18 old problem or an issue?
19 BY MR. SIMONS:
20 Q. In December of 1984, it was reported to you by
21 a doctor that Father O'Grady revealed a severe defect
22 in maturation not only in the matter of sex but more
23 importantly in the matter of social relationships, and
24 he also showed a serious psychological depression.
25 That was reported to you; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you do upon receiving this report to
3 investigate the background and history of
4 Oliver O'Grady during the time of his service as a
5 priest in Stockton?
6 A. I think it would be helpful to place in
7 context how this evaluation by Dr. Morris arose in the
8 first place.
9 Q. It might be. I would ask you first if I might
10 be so bold as to answer my question, which is what did
11 you do upon receiving this letter to investigate any
12 background Oliver O'Grady had concerning his
13 performance while a priest in the Diocese of Stockton?
14 A. This letter is one conversation with
15 Dr. Morris. I had other conversations with Dr. Morris
16 about the suitability of Father O'Grady going to a
17 parish in San Andreas. And so Dr. Morris, an outside
18 psychiatric consultant whom I had asked to review
19 Father O'Grady independently, reached this conclusion
20 that in his opinion Father O'Grady could continue at
21 St. Andrew's in San Andreas, and he that pointed out
22 what was customary in that time that there were two
23 avenues to pursue: One, counseling, and the other,
24 spiritual direction and spiritual assistance. Those
25 are his two recommendations. At no point in the
1 conversation or the letter does he say Father O'Grady
2 is a danger to anyone nor does he say he should not
3 remain there, he should be taken out of there.
4 Q. Dr. Morris was not aware of the 1976 letter or
5 of the molestation of Nancy Sloan to your knowledge,
6 was he?
7 A. No, to the best of my knowledge, no.
8 Q. And you did not take any steps to look at
9 Oliver O'Grady's secret file to determine whether there
10 was anything in there historically that might add to
11 the information upon which the evaluation of this
12 priest was based?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. When a priest serves as pastor, who within the
15 parish, if anyone, is in a position to evaluate that
16 priest's conduct in terms of his personal relationships
17 with parishioners?
18 A. Well, keep in mind that he was appointed as
19 administrator of the parish not as a pastor, and this
20 what a temporary assignment until the pastor was named.
21 Q. But Oliver O'Grady was named pastor?
22 A. Eventually, yes.
23 Q. And it was your intention when you appointed
24 him administrator to appoint him as pastor?
25 A. No, he knew very well that the parish would be
1 advertised, and he was free to apply for it and he did
2 apply for it.
3 Q. You had a very good personal relationship with
4 O'Grady; right?
5 A. I hardly knew the man actually.
6 Q. You visited his mother in Ireland?
7 A. Well, in my first year or so I went to Ireland
8 and visited all of the families of the priests from
9 Ireland serving in the United States. I began at
10 Dublin, went all the way across the south, up the north
11 across and ended up back in Dublin. I visited every
12 single family of every Irish priest.
13 Q. You received letters from him thanking you for
14 your personal favors that he felt you had performed for
16 MR. WOODS: You mean like visiting his mother?
17 MR. SIMONS: No. Other personal favors
18 regarding his employment within the diocese.
19 Q. You received several letters from him, did you
21 A. There were several letters received, yes.
22 Q. More than you would find in the customary
23 priest's file?
24 MR. WOODS: Object. Calls for speculation.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't know. We were a small
1 diocese, and so I would receive more correspondence
2 from priests there than I would here.
3 BY MR. SIMONS:
4 Q. Who was there to supervise Oliver O'Grady when
5 he was appointed pastor at St. Andrews?
6 A. There was no one actually there who was given
7 the role of supervision. There were two retired
8 priests living in the rectory with him, and I thought
9 that would be helpful for his maturation in dealing
10 with authority problems as Dr. Morris suggests.
11 Q. Did you communicate with those retired priests
12 regarding Oliver O'Grady's performance as pastor at
13 St. Andrew's?
14 A. I did not.
15 Q. Did you personally visit St. Andrews during
16 the time that Oliver O'Grady was pastor?
17 A. I believe so because I believe there would
18 have been probably confirmation given up in that parish
19 during the time I was there.
20 Q. When you visited the parish, did you privately
21 seek out other persons including the retired priests to
22 ask about Father O'Grady's job performance?
23 A. No, my prior knowledge was that once the
24 parish was advertised, there was an open hearing up in
25 San Andreas which anyone in the parish was invited to
1 give their comments about who the next pastor should be
2 in terms of qualifications, but apparently they were
3 also a very strongly in favor of Father O'Grady
4 remaining as their pastor.
5 Q. There had been a complaint from a Mr. Howard
6 concerning Father O'Grady in 1980; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you were personally advised of that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I believe you testified in one of your
12 previous depositions that you felt that his conduct
13 would be understandable as he was a young priest? Do
14 you remember that testimony?
15 A. Well, his conduct as involved with this
16 married woman. It was Mr. Howard's wife that was the
17 concern and the problem.
18 Q. Were you concerned about Father O'Grady's
19 conduct with regard to the Howard family in 1980?
20 A. I called him in and told him that he was to
21 cease and desist anymore conduct contact with
22 Mrs. Howard and the Howard family. He promised to do
23 so, and I never had another report about him.
24 Q. What other reports do you recall receiving
25 concerning Father O'Grady other than the Howard report
1 and the Stockton police investigation?
2 A. I can't recall any other reports as such.
3 Q. Did you consider those two reports within the
4 space of four years to be above the regular amount of
5 reports of such problems that you would expect in a
7 A. It's very difficult to generalize about all
8 priests. A young priest who felt he was trained to
9 help someone in a marriage difficulty got too involved
10 possibly. It was always presented as a difficulty with
11 him and Mrs. Howard, and he promised not to see her
12 anymore, and I never heard anymore that he did. So I
13 presumed he was doing what he was told.
14 Q. Did part of that report concern
15 Father O'Grady's conduct with the Howard children?
16 A. If we could see what report are you
17 referring to precisely?
18 Q. You have in front of you several documents
19 that you have used to help refresh your recollection
20 concerning these matters. Do you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You reviewed those in preparation for today's
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you created some notes as well that you
1 have found helpful?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If I might take a moment, could I review the
4 documents that you have refreshed your recollection
5 with and your notes, please?
6 MR. WOODS: Can we take a break?
7 MR. SIMONS: I'm we sure can.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The
9 time is 4:03.
10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 14 was marked for
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
13 The time is 4:12.
14 BY MR. SIMONS:
15 Q. While we were off the record and with your
16 counsel's assistance, we have marked your notes that
17 you prepared and the materials you reviewed and brought
18 with you today in the manila file folder as a group
20 Mr. Woods, what number did you assign that
22 MR. WOODS: 14.
23 BY MR. SIMONS:
24 Q. 14, thank you.
25 Other than the materials contained in that
1 file folder did you review any other documents or
2 materials to refresh your recollection or otherwise
3 prepare for today's deposition?
4 A. I probably reviewed also some of the other
5 documents from the previous deposition last August.
6 Q. Do you remember specifically what documents?
7 A. I actually don't.
8 Q. You as the Bishop of Stockton had the
9 authority to appoint a pastor to a parish; correct?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. You would obtain advice from the personnel
12 board and other diocesan officials but the ultimate
13 authority to appoint a pastor rested with the Bishop at
14 that time; correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Did you have the authority to remove a pastor?
17 A. The removal of a pastor is a canonical
18 process. If the pastor does not wish to move from that
19 parish then there is a very elaborate process in canon
20 law for the removal of a pastor.
21 Q. Did you have the authority to remove a pastor
22 from his faculties, if you will, as you called it, with
23 regard to Fathers Munoz and Camacho?
24 A. Well, keep in mind that neither one of them
25 was a pastor or administrator.
1 Q. I understand.
2 A. They were simply associate pastors so it was
3 very easy to remove their faculties and their
5 Q. Did you have the power to do the same with a
6 pastor, that's my question, as with Fathers Munoz and
8 A. No. No, the removal of faculties or the
9 assignment of a pastor, canonical appointed pastor,
10 requires his consent or a canonical process.
11 Q. Did you have the authority at that time as
12 Bishop to order a parish closed?
13 A. I'm not sure what you mean by
14 Q. Could you close the parish? In other words,
15 instruct the pastor to cease offering services of the
16 church through that particular parish and merge it or
17 consolidate it with another existing parish or
18 otherwise change the structure without actually
19 removing the pastor through the canonical process?
20 MR. WOODS: Object. Calls for an expert
21 opinion on canon law. Beyond the scope of the
23 THE WITNESS: Well, all practical purposes,
24 the Diocese of Fresno and Diocese of Stockton, we
25 didn't close any parishes so I don't have any
1 experience with that.
2 BY MR. SIMONS:
3 Q. Did you open new parishes?
4 A. A new parish was planned. I'm not sure if it
5 actually opened in Stockton while I was still there.
6 It was in northern Modesto. We acquired the property,
7 but I don't think it actually was canonically
8 established and opened during my time.
9 Q. Did you have the authority as the Bishop to
10 purchase the property that you've just described that
11 was planned to be a future new parish?
12 A. Yes, in consultation usually with the dean and
13 the neighboring pastors.
14 Q. Would the final decision be the Bishops'?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have the authority at that time if you
17 so desired to move the location of the parish church
18 from one place to another by purchasing a new piece of
19 property as a location and selling an existing
21 MR. WOODS: Calls for an expert opinion.
22 Beyond the scope of this deposition. Totally
23 irrelevant to the subject matter of this case.
24 THE WITNESS: I have no experience of that so
25 I really don't know.
1 MR. SIMONS: Very good. Thank you so much.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Do you want to go off the
4 MR. SIMONS: Briefly.
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
6 time is 4:17.
7 (A brief recess was taken.)
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record. The
9 time is 4:18.
12 BY MR. De MARCO:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Cardinal. My name is Anthony
14 DeMarco. I represent a number of the plaintiffs in the
15 Fresno diocese cases.
16 Cardinal, you functioned in the capacity of
17 Chancellor with the Fresno diocese for some time. Can
18 you describe for me the duties of the Chancellor at the
19 time you served in that capacity?
20 A. Well, at the time I served as Chancellor, 1970
21 to 1975, I would say that I was primarily secretary to
22 the Bishop Donohoe, the Bishop of Fresno. So my
23 Chancellor responsibilities or duties were quite
25 Q. Was there did you have occasion to review
1 correspondence that was sent to the Bishop?
2 A. Bishop Donohoe would either refer things to
3 Bishop Dennis Dougherty, the Vicar General, or to me or
4 in some cases actually dictate a letter without either
5 one of us being aware of it. He handled things in
6 different ways.
7 Q. What month you started in 1970 as
8 Chancellor. What month of 1970? Do you recall?
9 A. You know, I actually don't recall what month
10 that was.
11 Q. Do you recall some of your first assignments
12 for the Bishop?
13 A. I remember primarily my assignments as
14 secretary and that is setting up the calendar for
15 confirmations, the various events he had to be at.
16 There were some 90 parishes or so in the diocese so my
17 primarily responsibilities even though I was Chancellor
18 was the Bishop's secretary, and a lot of it was
20 Q. Were you aware of some sort of an effort
21 Bishop Donohoe was undertaking at that time to create
22 some sort of pool for reassignments of pastors?
23 MR. WOODS: Pool? Object to the form of the
24 question. I don't understand the term pool.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure what you
2 BY MR. De MARCO:
3 Q. I'm not sure which number of exhibits we're
4 at? Is is 14?
5 MR. WOODS: 15.
6 MR. De MARCO: We can mark this as Exhibit 15.
7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 15 was marked
8 for identification.)
9 BY MR. De MARCO:
Cardinal, this is a document that we've
11 received from the Diocese of Fresno recently, their
12 attorneys, the personnel file of Monsignor Anthony
14 MR. WOODS: Is this the entire document, just
15 one page?
16 MR. De MARCO: Yes, as far as I know.
17 Q. This document, do you recall writing it?
18 A. I actually do not.
19 Q. Does it refresh your recollection as to
20 reassignments or some sort of pool being created for
21 reassignments of pastors about the time you were taking
22 office as Chancellor?
23 A. What is missing here is I don't know what
24 Bishop Donohoe asked me to do because I don't restate
25 his request in this memo so I'm not quite sure what it
1 is he's having me do except he wanted me to find
2 obviously some dates of assignments for priests.
3 Q. Do you recall whether he had given you the
4 names of priests to look into?
5 A. I actually don't know what sparked this or the
6 origination of this was.
7 Q. Do you have any understanding as to what the
8 checkmarks next to names of four of the priests on the
9 list indicate?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Down at the bottom of the document at the RMM,
12 those are your initials, Cardinal?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Prior to assuming the post of Chancellor, had
15 you had any occasion to meet Monsignor Anthony
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When was first time you met him?
19 A. I honestly don't know. Sometime after I was
20 ordained, but I don't know the first time.
21 Q. Did you have many meetings with him?
22 A. I don't think I had any meetings as such with
23 him. I probably met him at a clergy gathering or when
24 I drive Bishop Donohoe for confirmation to his parish.
25 Q. Had you heard any descriptions or complaints
1 from any source prior to assuming the post of
2 Chancellor, any complaints regarding Monsignor
4 A. Complaints of any kind?
5 Q. Any kind.
6 MR. WOODS: Object. Irrelevant to the subject
7 matter. I'll let him answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm just not aware of any
9 complaints against him.
10 BY MR. De MARCO:
11 Q. How about Joseph Pacheco? Prior to October of
12 1970 had you heard any negative statements at all
13 regarding Father Joseph Pacheco?
14 A. Best of my recollection, no, not at all.
15 Q. How about Father John McKee?
16 A. John McKee?
17 Q. Yes.
18 MR. WOODS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: No, I can't recall any specific
20 problems with John McKee.
21 BY MR. De MARCO:
22 Q. Do you recall ever being instructed by Bishop
23 Donohoe Donohoe or Donohue?
24 A. It's Donohoe, D O N O H O E. All oh's. I
25 learned the hard way.
1 Q. Yeah, it gets confusing.
2 Do you recall ever receiving any instruction
3 from Bishop Donohoe to look into either the personnel
4 file or the confidential file of Monsignor Herdegen?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 MR. De MARCO: I'd like to mark the next
7 document as an exhibit again out of the same source,
8 the personnel file of Monsignor Herdegen.
9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 16 was marked for
11 MR. WOODS: Can you read the first word of the
12 second line?
13 MR. De MARCO: Prayer and the no.
14 THE WITNESS: I would guess reading,
15 R E A D I N G. Reading of two documents looks to me
16 like what it might be.
17 BY MR. De MARCO:
18 Q. Cardinal, have you ever seen this document
20 A. I don't recall seeing it.
21 MR. De MARCO: I apologize moving from
22 document to document quickly. I know we are on short
23 time right now.
24 MR. HENNIGAN: Quick is good.
25 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 17 was marked for
2 BY MR. De MARCO:
3 Q. Same question on this document if you've ever
4 seen it before?
5 A. I don't recall seeing it, but it looks like a
6 form we had in the office to give a brief thumbnail
7 sketch of a parish.
8 Q. Who would prepare these documents?
9 A. Could have been myself. It could have been
10 Monsignor Dougherty. It depended on who Bishop Donohoe
11 saw first if he wanted something.
12 Q. Where would he I'm sorry. I cut you off.
13 A. He would simply ask the first one of us he saw
14 to look up information for him.
15 Q. Where would you look the information up for
16 this document? What sources would you utilize?
17 A. In each of the priest's files, there was a
18 resume sheet or card in front it listed all the
19 changes, assignments and that. Financial information
20 would have come from the finance officer on the annual
21 report of the parish.
22 Q. And the annual reports for every parish were
23 maintained in the diocese chancery?
24 A. Yes, in the office of the with the finance
1 Q. And were regular audits conducted of those?
2 A. Of each location?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I don't think so. Not in my time.
5 MR. De MARCO: I'd like to mark as the next
6 sequential exhibit. I'll hand three over rather than
7 jumping across the table three times.
8 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 18 and 19 were
9 marked for identification.)
10 BY MR. De MARCO:
11 Q. After you've had a chance to review it, I have
12 a question about a particular aspect of this.
13 Waiting for Mr. Woods to indicate he's ready.
14 MR. WOODS: Yes.
15 BY MR. De MARCO:
16 Q. This memoranda that is purportedly authored by
17 you appears to be a confirmation of a conversation that
18 you had with Monsignor Herdegen. Does it refresh your
19 memory as to the conversation taking place?
20 A. Yes, it does.
21 Q. Cardinal, in the paragraph dealing with your
22 recommendation, not the first paragraph in there but
23 the second, it states the only difficulty that must be
24 discussed with Monsignor Herdegen is his willingness to
25 have Monsignor Crowley in the rectory with him.
1 Do you recall why you wrote that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you share that with me?
4 A. It's normal practice if the Pastor Emeritus is
5 going to stay in the rectory that the incoming pastor
6 must give his consent to that arrangement.
7 Q. Did you have any reason to believe that he
8 wouldn't give his consent?
9 A. No, in fact, I say so.
10 Q. Had you been informed as of the time of
11 writing this letter of Monsignor Herdegen ever having
12 minors in the rectory with him at St. John's in Wasco?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Had you ever had occasion to visit St. John's
15 Wasco as of the writing of this letter?
16 A. Again in my capacity as the secretary to the
17 Bishop, I would have driven him there for confirmation
18 or special liturgies, but that's all.
19 Q. Do you recall ever meeting the parish
20 housekeeper there as of the writing of this letter?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you recall meeting any other parishioners
23 there at St. John's strike that. I'm sorry.
24 Did Bishop Donohoe ever indicate that there
25 had been received letters of complaint prior to the
1 writing of this letter regarding Monsignor Herdegen?
2 MR. WOODS: Object. Beyond the scope of the
3 deposition. Irrelevant to the subject matter unless
4 limited to complaint of childhood sexual abuse, but
5 I'll let him answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Monsignor Herdegen was quite
7 conservative and, following the Second Vatican Counsel,
8 was not eager to implement the spirit and the practice
9 of the Second Vatican Counsel. I suspect that people
10 in the parish probably voiced their unhappiness about
11 this, but I don't have anything special in mind. I
12 just know that he fought vigorously against the Second
13 Vatican Counsel.
14 MR. De MARCO: This is three copies again.
15 This one is a bit harder to read because it is in
16 handwriting. Some of the difficult passages we can
17 before I have you read through all three pages of the
18 difficult writing
19 Q. Cardinal prior to just receiving this letter
20 right now, have you ever seen this letter before?
21 A. I don't recall seeing this letter before.
22 Q. I'd like to read a couple of the sentences
23 from the letter and ask you if Bishop Donohoe ever
24 communicated to you the concerns voiced in the letter.
25 Towards the bottom of the first page it says:
1 "Monsignor's attitude, type of leadership
2 and his methods of teaching has been
3 detrimental to our congregation and
4 alienated many of our youth."
5 Now specifically since we're here on the
6 subject matter we are, did Bishop Donohoe ever
7 communicate to you a concern about Monsignor Herdegen's
8 dealings with youth?
9 MR. HENNIGAN: (Inaudible.)
10 THE WITNESS: Again, as I said a few moments
11 ago, the problem was his authoritarian way of
12 pastoring, not at all the kind of pastoring model that
13 the Second Vatican Counsel was encouraging. Everything
14 was yes or no, and he didn't want anything changed. He
15 didn't want any new songs. He didn't want anything.
16 So people were disaffected by that. But that's the
17 only context that I can recall that that would have
18 been referring to.
19 BY MR. De MARCO:
20 Q. Was there ever any investigation to your
21 knowledge made into his dealings with youth?
22 MR. WOODS: Into his dealings with youth?
23 MR. De MARCO: With the youth of his parish.
24 MR. WOODS: Any investigation. Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of.
1 BY MR. De MARCO:
2 Q. No effort that you are aware of to ask
3 questions or take the concerns of the young
4 parishioners of the parish and hear them out?
5 A. No, but that would not have been my role as
6 such. But again, it was my understanding that the
7 dissatisfaction was over his rigidity and lack of
8 empowering people and allowing parishioners to become
10 Q. If there had been any investigation done, who
11 would have been the person to do so?
12 A. It would depend on the circumstances on what
13 the allegation was, and Bishop Donohoe would have
14 designated someone to deal with it.
15 Q. Generally speaking, if it was a concern over
16 his dealings with youth, any ideas who he may have
17 designated to conduct such as investigation?
18 A. No. He could have chosen the dean of that
19 Kern County deanery. In fact, I suspect that would
20 have been his first approach. He utilized his deans
21 quite well, and I imagine he would have asked the dean.
22 Q. But you are not aware of him ever asking the
23 dean to do any kind of investigation?
24 A. No, I'm not.
25 Q. Do you recall a Father or a Mr. excuse
1 me Michael Denunzio of the Community Counseling
3 A. Michael Denunzio, yes.
4 Q. What was his capacity for the diocese? Was he
5 employed by the diocese?
6 A. Bishop Donohoe decided to inaugurate an annual
7 appeal in the Diocese of Fresno and contracted with
8 community counseling service out of New York, I
9 believe, and they assigned Michael Denunzio who I
10 believe was operating out of their San Francisco office
11 to to head up this particular appeal.
12 Q. When you say appeal, I'm not understanding.
13 A. By annual appeal, before Bishop Donohoe there
14 was never an annual request for funds on the part of
15 the people for the support of the ministries of the
16 diocese as such.
17 Q. So Mr. Denunzio's function was not in the
18 realm of counseling priests? It was to help raise
20 A. Community Counseling Service is a fundraising
21 nationwide organization.
22 Q. The priest counsel or the parish counsel
23 concept, was that something that was beginning to be
24 implemented in the Fresno diocese in your time there?
25 A. Both parish counsels and priest counsels?
1 Q. Parish counsels.
2 A. Parish counsels?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. It began very gradually.
5 Q. And what were the parish counsel's intended to
6 be? What was their function intended to be?
7 A. Parish counsels were an evolution from the
8 Second Vatican Counsel allowing for the involvement of
9 lay people in the spiritual, pastoral, economic,
10 administrative operation of the parish.
11 Q. Were you aware of Monsignor Herdegen resisting
12 effort to have parish counsels or have a parish counsel
13 at Saint John's in Wasco?
14 A. I would have presumed he would have resisted
15 having parish counsel.
16 Q. Were the parish counsels in any way intended
17 to instill some sort of oversight or control on the
18 part of parishioners at their parishes?
19 A. No, not at all.
20 Q. Cardinal, do you remember a priest by the name
21 of Benjamin Gabriel out of the Fresno diocese?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Tell me what you remember about him. If it
24 calls for a long narrative, I'll certainly narrow it
25 down, but certainly we didn't have that much detail of
1 Monsignor Herdegen.
2 MR. HENNIGAN: Are you just practicing here?
3 Why don't you do it?
4 BY MR. De MARCO:
5 Q. Do you recall Father Gabriel being an extern
6 priest from the Philippines?
7 A. I don't recall whether he was an extern or
8 incardinated, but I do recall him being from the
9 Philippines and not terrible well.
10 Q. What do you mean?
11 A. His health. His health was not strong.
12 Q. Do you recall there being any investigation
13 into his fitness for service in the diocese prior to
14 his serving in the Diocese of Fresno?
15 MR. WOODS: Object to the subject matter
16 unless it's limited to sexual abuse, but I'll let him
18 THE WITNESS: No, in fact, I don't recall when
19 Father Gabriel even came to the Diocese of Fresno.
20 BY MR. De MARCO:
21 Q. Do you recall striking up a friendship with
22 Father Gabriel?
23 A. Friendship?
24 Q. More than a mere acquaintanceship?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. Do you recall him utilizing you as a reference
2 for being incardinated into the diocese?
3 A. He might have. I just don't recall.
4 Q. Do you recall ever receiving any complaints of
5 any nature regarding Father Gabriel?
6 A. No complaints that I can recall.
7 Q. Do you recall ever hearing of him having
8 minors stay with him in his rectory?
9 A. Do you know which rectory you might be
10 referring to?
11 Q. St. Jude's in Earlimart?
12 A. My recollection was that Earlimart's a very
13 small little town and that in fact his rectory was in a
14 house trailer. Very small.
15 Q. You have a very good recollection, Cardinal.
16 A. My memory is it was a very small house
18 Q. Did you ever receive any reports of him having
19 minor guests in his house trailer?
20 A. I honestly don't remember.
21 Q. Did you ever have occasion to visit him in the
22 house trailer?
23 A. I believe when I was Auxiliary Bishop I had
24 confirmation at his parish and may have visited his
1 Q. The priest senate, was that a body where the
2 members were appointed by the Bishop or was it
4 A. The Counsel, the Vatican Counsel and then the
5 1983 code of canon law required that at least half of
6 the counsel be elected by the priests and the others
7 could be appointed by the Bishop.
8 Q. Do you recall whether Monsignor Herdegen was
9 appointed or elected to the priest counsel or priest
10 senate, excuse me?
11 A. I really don't recall that.
12 Q. Do you recall him being on the priest senate
13 at any time while you were at the Fresno diocese?
14 A. I don't, no.
15 Q. While you were with the Fresno diocese, did
16 you ever hear Bishop Donohoe or any others discussing a
17 father John Jack Bradley, who was a Jesuit priest?
18 A. I don't recall John Jack Bradley at all.
19 Q. How about Father William Allison?
20 A. Was he an order priest, do you know?
21 Q. He was a diocesan priest and appears to be a
22 supply priest for a very short period of time in the
24 A. I have no recollection of the name at all.
25 Q. How about Father James Collins?
1 A. Last name?
2 Q. Collins.
3 A. James Collins. No, I have no recollection of
5 Q. Father Mangan, a religious order priest?
6 A. Do you know what religious order by chance?
7 Q. Off the top, no.
8 A. Because I don't recall the name.
9 MR. De MARCO: One or two more questions. I
10 know we're cutting it short, and at least one other
11 counsel wants to ask questions.
12 MR. HENNIGAN: You are running out of time.
13 MR. De MARCO: I'll be very brief.
14 MR. HENNIGAN: He is using up your time. It's
15 a filibuster.
16 MR. De MARCO: Thank you, Mike. Can you
17 extend me by about three and a half seconds?
18 Q. Were you aware of any of the vocations that
19 Monsignor Herdegen was able to recruit during your time
20 at the Fresno diocese.
21 If you would you like, I'll rephrase the
23 By vocations, Cardinal, you understand my
24 meaning someone recruited to go into the seminary?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So are you not aware of any recruits that
2 Monsignor Herdegen was able to bring to the seminary?
3 A. No. He could have brought forth candidates.
4 I simply can't remember any.
5 Q. One last question. If the parish
7 MR. WOODS: I'm getting ready to object. This
8 must be a great one. Go ahead.
9 MR. HENNIGAN: The old parish housekeeper
11 MR. De MARCO: Yes, it is.
12 MR. HENNIGAN: Same one as before.
13 MR. De MARCO: You heard the word if. Now I
14 got you.
15 Q. If the parish housekeeper at St. John's in
16 Wasco had observed boys going unchaperoned into
17 Monsignor Herdegen's bedroom, would you have expected
18 would you have expected that parish housekeeper to
19 make some report to the diocese?
20 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object for the
21 record. Calls for an expert opinion. I'll let him
23 THE WITNESS: Well, again as I answered
24 before to similar questions it depends on the
1 BY MR. De MARCO:
2 Q. If the parish housekeeper had become aware of
3 children unsupervised and unchaperoned into the bedroom
4 with a door shut for any length of time of Monsignor
5 Herdegen, would you have expected the housekeeper to
6 have made some effort to report to a higher level
8 A. Going into the bedroom and the door's shut for
9 a period of time?
10 Q. Yes.
11 MR. WOODS: I'll object to the form of the
12 question. The age of the housekeeper, what language
13 she speaks, if she knew they were there the whole time.
14 Hypothetical question but he can answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm not even sure he had a
16 resident housekeeper so it's very difficult to put all
17 your pure perfects together in a scenario.
18 BY MR. De MARCO:
19 Q. If we were to assume all those facts were
20 true, and it's just an assumption for the purposes of
21 the deposition today, would you have expected that
22 parish housekeeper to have made some effort to report
23 to a higher level official?
24 A. Well, if there was well founded suspicion of
25 some problem, I would expect she would have told
2 MR. De MARCO: If Joe wants to ask something
3 that will be relevant to his case, I'll yield the
4 balance of my time at this point.
5 MR. HENNIGAN: You don't have a balance your
7 MR. De MARCO: I have a balance.
10 BY MR. GEORGE:
11 Q. Cardinal Mahony, Mr. Woods, Mr. Hennigan, my
12 name is Joseph George. I'm one of the attorneys
13 representing Mr. *********, who is present and
14 sitting to my left.
15 Cardinal Mahony, it's been a long day. If you
16 don't understand my question, please let me know. I
17 don't want you to understand something I don't want
18 you to answer something you don't understand.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Cardinal, do you know ********?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know his mother *******?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know ****'s father ********?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Cardinal Mahony, when you were Bishop of
2 Stockton, did you socialize with the ******* family?
3 A. Could you explain socialize?
4 Q. Did you eat dinner at their home?
5 A. I may have. I saw them at so many events and
6 they were very prominent leaders so I could have, but I
7 saw them many times.
8 Q. Did you place with the children at the *******
10 MR. WOODS: That's a loaded question.
11 BY MR. GEORGE:
12 Q. I'll be more specific. Cardinal, did you play
13 Atari with ****?
14 A. Did I play what?
15 Q. Atari, video games?
16 A. I don't recall what Atari is. I might have
17 it, but doesn't ring any bell.
18 Q. Cardinal Mahony, I don't want to repeat any
19 testimony you've already given, and you've mentioned
20 the name Father Fernando Villalobos.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I know that you know him. Father Villalobos
23 is dead now; is that true?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. When you were Bishop of Stockton,
1 Father Villalobos had an office at the cathedral?
2 A. No, that's not correct.
3 Q. Did Father Villalobos have an office next to
4 yours at the in the Diocese of Stockton?
5 A. You mean in the chancery office?
6 Q. I do, Cardinal, yes.
7 A. No, he did not.
8 Q. Cardinal Mahony, are you aware that
9 Father Villalobos was the chaplain for the Stockton
10 Police Department?
11 A. I believe I do recall that.
12 Q. Did Father Villalobos possess a badge from the
13 Stockton Police Department?
14 A. I actually don't know.
15 Q. Cardinal Mahony, did you go to excuse me
16 go with Father Villalobos to the **** home?
17 A. I don't recall. I may have. I don't recall.
18 Q. Cardinal Mahony, did Father Villalobos live,
19 reside at St. Mary's parish in Stockton, California?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Cardinal Mahony, did Father Villalobos
22 maintain a residence at Silver Creek Circle in
23 Stockton, California?
24 A. I believe he had a residence, but I was never
25 at it so I don't know where it was.
1 Q. I want to be clear. I don't want to repeat
2 the testimony.
3 Did you visit Father Villalobos at this other
4 residence, wherever it was?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you phone Father Villalobos at the other
7 residence, call him on the telephone?
8 A. I really don't recall. I may have. I simply
9 don't remember.
10 Q. Are you aware if Father Villalobos called you
11 from this other residence?
12 A. He may have, yes.
13 Q. Would you have been able, and I'm not trying
14 to be tricky or play any games, would you have been
15 able to tell if Father Villalobos was calling you from
16 the St. Mary's home or the other residence?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Cardinal Mahony, are you aware if
19 Father Villalobos phoned you from the other residence
20 while ****** was present at the other
22 A. No, I'm not.
23 Q. Prior to 1983, Cardinal Mahony, were you aware
24 that ************ ate dinner with Father Villalobos at
25 the separate residence?
1 A. No, I'm not.
2 Q. Cardinal Mahony, prior to 1983, were you aware
3 that Father Villalobos provided alcohol to **********
4 at this separate residence?
5 A. No, I'm not.
6 Q. Cardinal Mahony, prior to 1983, were you aware
7 that Father Villalobos invited ***** to spend
8 the night at the separate residence?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. Cardinal Mahony, prior to 1983, are you
11 aware if ****** did spend the night with
12 Father Villalobos at the separate residence?
13 A. No, I'm not.
14 Q. Cardinal Mahony, prior to 1983, were you aware
15 that Father Villalobos sexually abused ***** at
16 the separate residence?
17 A. No, I am not.
18 Q. Cardinal, I mentioned the Silver Creek Circle
19 address. Does the street Kohler K O H L E R refresh
20 your memory as to Father Villalobos's separate address?
21 A. No, it does not.
22 Q. Cardinal Mahony, in 1988 *****,
23 Mr. ********* father, contacted you regarding *****'s
24 interest in attending the seminary; is that true?
25 A. I just have a very hazy recollection of that.
1 Q. In 1988, the same year, you assisted
2 ********** in attending St. John's seminary in
3 Camarillo; true?
4 A. What year again you said?
5 Q. 1988.
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 Q. At that time, 1988, the ******** family
8 including **** still lived in Stockton, California?
9 A. As far as I know, yes.
10 Q. Was it unusual, Cardinal Mahony, for a person
11 living in Stockton, California to attend the St. John's
12 seminary in Camarillo, California?
13 A. No, we had seminarians quite frequently from
14 the various western dioceses.
15 Q. Was it the normal situation that someone
16 living in Stockton would attend the seminary in Menlo
18 A. There were very few seminarians in the Diocese
19 of Stockton. I would say the majority were there.
20 Some were in other seminaries as well.
21 Q. Cardinal Mahony, are you aware that
22 ****** nickname at St. John's was Mahony's boy?
23 A. No, I was not.
24 Q. In 2002, Mr. ******* called you, do you
25 remember this?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Cardinal Mahony, you returned *****'s phone
4 A. I did.
5 Q. And you spoke to *******?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. During this conversation, Mr. ***** informed
8 you that he was sexually abused by Father Fernando
10 A. At some point in the conversation, but that
11 was not his presenting issues.
12 Q. Cardinal Mahony, you responded to ***** by
13 saying nothing could be done because Fernando was dead?
14 A. That is not correct.
15 Q. Thank you, Cardinal.
16 MS. SOLTAN: I just have one follow up
19 FURTHER EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. SOLTAN:
21 Q. When you left the Diocese of Stockton in about
22 1985, did you brief the incoming Bishop with regard to
23 the operations of the diocese?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. You did not meet with him at all to advise him
1 about the diocese?
2 A. Well, he was at that point my Auxiliary Bishop
3 here in Los Angeles so all I told him was he was going
4 to a wonderful, small diocese in Northern California.
5 Q. I'm sorry. You were at Stockton and he was in
6 Los Angeles?
7 A. He was Auxiliary Bishop. Bishop Montrose was
8 Auxiliary Bishop here.
9 Q. In Los Angeles?
10 A. In Los Angeles when I became the archbishop
11 here. Some months later, he was transferred to succeed
12 me in Stockton.
13 MR. HENNIGAN: Are you still on the one
15 MS. SOLTAN: I'm sorry. It's all one. I'm
17 Q. Did you brief him about Oliver O'Grady and his
18 past history with regard to the Howards and any other
19 matters having to do with sexual affairs?
20 A. No.
21 MS. SOLTAN: Thank you.
22 MR. WOODS: Thank you all.
23 MS. SOLTAN: I think what we're going to do is
24 stipulate that the original transcript will be sent to
25 Mr. Woods' office to be reviewed by the Cardinal and
1 signed under penalty of perjury within 15 days of
2 receipt. Is that adequate?
3 MR. WOODS: Follow the statute. 15 days?
4 MS. SOLTAN: I'm just asking.
5 THE WITNESS: The holiday season. That will
6 be difficult.
7 MS. SOLTAN: I am difficult.
8 Within 30 days, and we're relieving the court
9 reporter of her duties, and the transcript will be
10 signed under penalty of perjury, and that you will
11 advise us of any changes within that 30 day period.
12 MR. WOODS: On the record, may I have
13 everyone's attention? On the record. One last thing,
14 I just want to remind everybody there's a 14 day window
15 before any of this can be released to the media or
16 anyone else. Okay? 14 days. And if we file a motion,
17 it continues. The window continues until the motion is
19 MR. MANLY: Am I going to here Hennigan on
21 MS. SOLTAN: Do you have an intent of filing a
23 MR. WOODS: We'll read the transcript and
24 decide. There were an awful lot of questions I
25 objected to.
1 MS. SOLTAN: Thank you. Off the record.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape
3 number three of the deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony
4 on November 23rd, 2004, the time is 5:02 p.m.
5 (Ending time: 5:02 p.m.)
4 I, the undersigned, declare under penalty of
5 perjury that I have read the foregoing transcript, and
6 I have made any corrections, additions or deletions
7 that I was desirous of making; that the foregoing is a
8 true and correct transcript of my testimony contained
11 EXECUTED this _______ day of ______________,
12 20_____, at ___________________, _________________.
Signature of Witness
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