| |
Deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony
November 23, 2004
[Note: This is Part 1 of a two-part HTML version of the Mahony deposition [see also
Part 2] that BishopAccountability.org
created from a Word document included with Cardinal
Untruths: Mahony's Testimony in Sex Scandal Clashes with Earlier Statements
and Reality, by Jeffrey Anderson, LA Weekly (12/15/04). See also Mahony
in '80s Banned Two Priests: Deposition Reveals He Ousted Pair Accused of Molestation
from U.S. While He Was Stockton Bishop, by Jean Guccione, LA Times (12/10/04);
and Cardinal
Mahony Accused of Perjury in Sex Abuse Case, by Don Lattin, San Francisco
Chronicle (12/11/04). In his article, Anderson also provided
four of the deposition exhibits: 2, 3,
4,
and 8.
For easier reading, we have formatted the list of exhibits and the list of questions
that Mahony was instructed by his lawyer not to answer. We've displayed the
page numbers in blue and adjusted the spacing, but otherwise this is the text
of the deposition that accompanied Anderson's article.]
0001
1 SUPERIOR
COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
3
4
5
Coordinated Proceeding
)
6 Special Title (Rule 1550(b) )
)
7 )
THE CLERGY CASES III
) No.
JCCP 4359
8
)
)
9 _________________________________)
10
11
DEPOSITION OF
12
CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY
13
LOS
ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
14
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 2004
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 REPORTED BY:
24 LISA MICHAELS, RPR
25 CSR NO. 6361
0002
1
Videotaped deposition of
2 CARDINAL
ROGER MAHONY, taken on behalf of
3 Plaintiffs
at 601 N. Figueroa Street,
4 26th
Floor, Los Angeles, California,
5 commencing
at 10:05 a.m., on Tuesday,
6 November
23, 2004, before Lisa Michaels,
7 RPR,
CSR No. 6361.
8
9 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
10
11 JOHN C. MANLY, Attorney at Law,
M. RYAN DIMARIA,
12 Attorney at Law, of Manly & McGuire, 555 Anton
13 Boulevard, Suite 1200, Costa Mesa, California, 92626,
14 (714) 557 9999, appeared as counsel for and on behalf
15 of Plaintiffs,
16 VENUS SOLTAN, Attorney at Law,
JOE Q. KAUFMAN,
17 Attorney at Law, of Soltan and Associates, 555 Anton
18 Boulevard, Suite 1200, Costa Mesa, California, 92626,
19 (714) 434 7900, soltan1@pacbell.net, appeared as
20 counsel for and on behalf of Plaintiffs,
21 RICK SIMONS, Attorney at Law, of
Furtado,
22 Jaspovice & Simons, 22274 Main Street, Hayward,
23 California, 94541, (510) 582 1080, rick@fjslaw.com,
24 appeared as plaintiffs' liason counsel,
25 ANTHONY M. De MARCO, Attorney at
Law, of Kiesel,
0003
1 Boucher & Larson, 8648 Wilshire Boulevard,
Beverly
2 Hills, California, 90211 2910, (310) 854
4444,
3 ademarco@kbla.com, appeared as counsel
for and on
4 behalf of plaintiffs,
5 JOSEPH C. GEORGE, JR.,
Attorney at Law, of The
6 Law Offices of Joseph C. George, Ph.D.,
980 Ninth
7 Street, Suite 1900, Sacramento, California,
95814,
8 (916) 442 7100, jgeorgejr@psyclaw.com,
appeared as
9 counsel for and on behalf of the plaintiffs
10 family,
11 JEFFREY A. SILVA, Attorney at Law,
GREGORY R.
12 DAVENPORT, Attorney at Law, 3031 West March Lane,
Suite
13 334E, Stockton, California, 95209, appeared for and
on
14 behalf of plaintiffs,
15 KATHERINE K. FREBERG, Attorney
at Law, of Freberg
16 & Associates, 8001 Irvine Center Drive, Suite
1070,
17 Irvine, California, 92618, (949) 453 1111,
18 kfreberg@freberglaw.com, appeared for and on behalf
of
19 plaintiffs,
20 DONALD F. WOODS, JR., Attorney
at Law, J. MICHAEL
21 HENNIGAN, Attorney at Law, JAMES P. HABEL, Attorney
at
22 Law, of Hennigan, Bennett & Dorman, 601 South
Figueroa
23 Street, Suite 3300, Los Angeles, California, 90017,
24 (213) 694 1200, woods@hbdlawyers.com, appeared for
and
25 on behalf of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and the
0004
1 witness,
2 FRANK D. MAUL, Attorney
at Law, of Stammer,
3 McKnight, Barnum & Bailey, 2540 W.
Shaw Lane, #110,
4 Fresno, California, 93711 2765, (559) 449
0571,
5 frankm@smbblaw.com, appeared for and on
behalf of The
6 Roman Catholic Bishop of Fresno, a Corporation
Sole and
7 The Diocese of Fresno Education Corporation,
8 PAUL N. BALESTRACCI,
Attorney at Law, of
9 Neumiller & Beardslee, 509 W. Weber
Avenue, P.O. Box
10 20, Stockton, California, (209) 948 8200,
11 pbalestracci@neumiller.com, appeared for and on behalf
12 of The Roman Catholic Bishop of Stockton,
13 PETER J. GODFREY, Attorney at Law,
of Gilbert,
14 Kelly, Crowley & Jennett, 1055 West Seventh Street,
15 Suite 2000, Los Angeles, California, 90017, (213)
16 580 7000, pjg@gilbertkelly.com, appeared for and on
17 behalf of The Los Angeles Diocese,
18 JOHN P. CHRISTIAN, Attorney at
Law, of Tobin &
19 Tobin, 500 Sansome Street, Eighth Floor, San Francisco,
20 California, 94111, (415) 433 3883, appeared for and
on
21 behalf of The Diocese of Monterey and as liason counsel
22 for defendants and clergy,
23 PAUL A. MATIASIC, Attorney at Law,
of Lewis,
24 Brisbois, Bisgaard & Smith, One Sansome Street,
Suite
25 1400, San Francisco, California, 94104, (415) 362
2580,
0005
1 matiasic@lbbslaw.com, appeared for and
on behalf of the
2 Defendants Franciscan Friars of California
and the
3 Bishop of Oakland,
4 SETH J. SCHWARTZ, Attorney
at Law, of McNamara,
5 Dodge, Ney, Beatty, Slattery & Pfalzer,
1211 Newell
6 Avenue, P.O. Box 5288, Walnut Creek, California,
7 94596 1288, (925) 939 5330,
8 seth.schwartz@mcnamaralaw.com.
9
10
11 ALSO PRESENT:
12
13 DAVID J. HUDAK
14 PATRICK J. WALL
15 RICHARD SIPE
16 JOHN DOE
17 NANCY SLOAN
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0006
1
INDEX OF EXAMINORS
2 WITNESS: CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY
3 EXAMINATION
PAGE
4 BY MR. MANLY 11
5 BY MS. SOLTAN
161, 264
6 BY MR. SIMONS 204
7 BY MR. De MARCO
258
8
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
| 9 |
|
|
|
| 10 |
NUMBER |
DESCRIPTION |
PAGE |
| 11 |
1 |
Fresno State College document;
8 pages |
40 |
| 12 |
2 |
Letter from the Servants of the Paraclete
dated 7 6 68; 1 page |
47 |
| 13 |
3 |
Confidential Memorandum dated
2 15 84; 5 pages |
68 |
| 14 |
4 |
Letter to Captain House dated
3 16 84; 4 pages |
75 |
| 15 |
5 |
Letter to Captain House dated
3 28 84; 1 pages |
83 |
| 16 |
6 |
Biographical Data on Cardinal
Roger Mahony; |
94 |
| 17 |
|
6 pages |
|
| 18 |
7 |
Codex Iuris Canonici; 14 pages |
134 |
| 19 |
8 |
6 12 98 Trial Testimony; 2
pages |
134 |
| 20 |
9 |
Instructio (Latin); 55 pages |
142 |
| 21 |
10 |
Instruction (English); 39 pages |
142 |
| 22 |
11 |
Il Processo Penale Cannonico
article; 20 pages |
152 |
| 23 |
12 |
Letter dated 8 23 76 from Rev.
O'Grady;
2 pages |
226 |
| 24 |
|
|
|
| 25 |
|
|
|
0007
1
INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)
| 2 |
NUMBER |
DESCRIPTION |
PAGE |
| 3 |
13 |
Letter dated 21 29 84 from
Dr. Morris; 1 page |
226 |
| 4 |
14 |
Documents in Cardinal Mahony's file;
47 pages |
234 |
| 5 |
15 |
Memorandum dated 10 4 70; 1
page |
240 |
| 6 |
16 |
Letter dated 10 8 70 from Bishop
Donohoe; |
243 |
| 7 |
|
1 page |
|
| 8 |
17 |
Handwritten notes on Rev. Herdegen;
1 page |
243 |
| 9 |
18 |
Memorandum dated 1 5 71; 1
page |
245 |
| 10 |
19 |
Handwritten letter to Bishop
Donohoe; 3 pages |
245 |
| 11 |
|
|
|
QUESTIONS WITNESS WAS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER:
| 12 |
PAGE |
LINE |
|
[PAGE] |
[LINE] |
| 13 |
11 |
24 |
|
150 |
22 |
| 14 |
12 |
17 |
|
155 |
8 |
| |
13 |
25 |
|
165 |
24 |
| 15 |
13 |
6 |
|
175 |
24 |
| |
56 |
18 |
|
179 |
7 |
| 16 |
64 |
5 |
|
179 |
19 |
| |
83 |
20 |
|
181 |
4 |
| 17 |
84 |
2 |
|
209 |
12 |
| |
92 |
17 |
|
|
|
| 18 |
112 |
12 |
|
|
|
| |
112 |
18 |
|
|
|
| 19 |
114 |
7 |
|
|
|
| |
123 |
12 |
|
|
|
| 20 |
128 |
15 |
|
|
|
| 21 |
|
|
|
|
|
| 22 |
|
|
|
|
|
| 23 |
|
|
|
|
|
INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED:
24
(NONE)
25
0008
1 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 23,
2004; LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA.
2
10:05 A.M.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good
morning. This is the
4 videotaped deposition of Cardinal Roger
Mahony. It's
5 taken in the matter of John Doe versus
the Roman
6 Catholic Bishop of Stockton. It's pending
trial in the
7 Superior Court of California, for the County
of
8 Alameda, Case Number 4359.
9 Today's date is November
the 23rd, 2004. The
10 time is 10:05 A.M. This deposition is being taken
at
11 the law firm of Hennigan and Bennett, located at 601
12 South Figueroa Street, on the 26th floor, in
13 Los Angeles, California. The videotaped deposition
is
14 noticed by John C. Manly of Manly & McGuire, located
at
15 555 Anton Boulevard, Suite 1200, in Costa Mesa,
16 California, 92626.
17 The videotape operator is Richard
Smith. I'm
18 with Dan Motaz Video Productions, located at 182 Second
19 Street, Suite 202 in San Francisco, California, 94105.
20 The phone number is (415) 624 1300.
21 Could I have counsel please identify
themselves
22 and state their affiliations for the record, please.
23 MR.
MANLY: John Manly for the plaintiff.
24 MS.
SOLTAN: Venus Soltan for the plaintiff.
25 MR.
WALL: Patrick Wall for the plaintiff.
0009
1 MR.
SIMONS: Rick Simons, plaintiffs' counsel
2 in Clergy III.
3 MR.
GEORGE: Joseph George, Jr., plaintiff.
4 MR.
SILVA: Jeff Silva, plaintiff.
5 MR.
DAVENPORT: Gregory Davenport, plaintiff.
6 MS.
FREBERG: Katherine Freberg, plaintiff.
7 MR.
CHRISTIAN: John Christian for the Diocese
8 of Monterey and liaison counsel for defendants
in
9 Clergy III.
10 MR.
CALLAHAN: Peter Callahan, Diocese of
11 Orange and Diocese of Monterey.
12 MR.
SCHWARTZ: Seth Schwartz, Diocese of
13 Stockton.
14 MR.
BALESTRACCI: Paul Balestracci, Diocese of
15 Stockton.
16 MR.
MATIASIC: Paul Matiasic, Franciscan
17 Friars and Bishop of Oakland.
18 MR.
MAUL: Frank Maul, Diocese of Fresno.
19 MR.
HENNIGAN: Michael Hennigan, Archdiocese
20 of Los Angeles.
21 MR.
WOODS: Don Woods representing the
22 witness, Cardinal Mahony.
23 MR.
GODFREY: Peter Godfrey for the
24 Archdiocese of Los Angeles.
25 MR.
HABEL: James Habel for the Archdiocese of
0010
1 Los Angeles.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER:
Could I have that again, a
3 little louder, please.
4 MR.
HABEL: James Habel, Archdiocese of Los
5 Angeles.
6 MR.
DIMARIA: Ryan Dimaria for the plaintiff.
7 MS.
SOLTAN: We have our plaintiff John Doe,
8 and also plaintiff Nancy Sloan is present.
9 MR.
KAUFMAN: Joe Kaufman for the plaintiff.
10 MR.
De MARCO: Anthony De Marco for the
11 plaintiffs.
12 MR.
SIPES: Rick Sipes for the plaintiff.
13 MS.
SOLTAN: We also have a plaintiff John Doe
14 and a plaintiff *.
15 MR.
HUDAK: David Hudak for the Archdiocese of
16 San Francisco, Diocese of Santa Rosa and Diocese of
17 Oakland.
18 MR.
MANLY: The record should reflect that
19 Mr. Wallace and Mr. Sipe not counsel. They are here
as
20 consultants.
21 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: If I could have the court
22 reporter please swear in witness.
23 ///
24 ///
25 ///
0011
1
CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY,
2 having declared under
penalty of perjury to tell the
3 truth, was examined
and testified as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Good morning, Your
Eminence.
7 MR. WOODS: Can we go
off the record one second?
8 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The
9 time is 10:08.
10 (An
off the record discussion was held.)
11 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
12 The time is 10:08.
13 BY MR. MANLY:
14 Q. Good morning, Your Eminence.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Your Eminence, have you ever
been deposed
17 before?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On several occasions; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you understood the oath
you just took
22 compels you to tell the truth?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Eminence, are you familiar with
something
25 called the "Doctrine of Mental Reservation"?
0012
1 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object to the
2 question and instruct the witness not to
answer.
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Eminence, do you
promise, regardless of any
5 obligation you have as a Father of Faith,
that you will
6 testify truthfully, regardless if it's
good, bad, or
7 indifferent for you or the case?
8 MR.
HENNIGAN: We're going to stop this
9 deposition right now if you persist in
this harassment.
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Do you promise to tell the truth,
12 Your Eminence?
13 MR.
HENNIGAN: He already did. Move on.
14 BY MR. MANLY:
15 Q. Eminence?
16 A. I already swore to that.
17 Q. Your Eminence, did you tell
me when a priest
18 becomes a priest what obligations he has to his Bishop?
19 MR.
WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
20 to answer.
21 BY MR. MANLY:
22 Q. Are you going to follow that
instruction, Your
23 Eminence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell me if a priest
takes an
0013
1 obligation of celibacy?
2 A. Correct.
3 MR.
WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
4 to answer.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. And what is celibacy?
7 MR.
WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not
8 to answer.
9 MR.
MANLY: On what grounds?
10 MR.
WOODS: It's beyond the scope of the
11 deposition, as ordered by the Court.
12 MR.
MANLY: Well, let me make an offer of
13 proof, Mr. Woods. Among other things in this case
is
14 that the in my case and in numerous other cases
15 priests told victims that it was not a violation of
the
16 vow of celibacy to, for example, masturbate or have
sex
17 with them. So I want to have a clear understanding
of
18 what that means. I don't think that's irrelevant.
I
19 think it's clearly within the scope. And I would like
20 the witness, for the sake of the boys and girls this
21 happened to they deserve to have an answer to that
22 question.
23 MR.
HENNIGAN: Why don't we stop this right
24 now and get an instruction from the Court.
25 MR.
MANLY: Fine. We'll move on, and we'll
0014
1 call the Court at lunch, and we'll get
an instruction.
2 MR.
WOODS: The issue is not with the
3 perpetrator here. We're dealing with supervisory
4 authority. The only issues are notice and
response.
5 Okay? Under the case law and under the
instruction of
6 this Court, the issue is notice, did they
have notice
7 and was a response proportional to the
notice that they
8 received.
9 MS.
SOLTAN: What are you referring to when
10 you say those are the only issues?
11 MR.
WOODS: Those are the only issues and
12 scope of liability relating to this case.
13 MS.
SOLTAN: Counsel, you and I had a
14 meet and confer before this deposition was scheduled,
15 in which we indicated the various items that are going
16 to be covered. And they are in no way limited to what
17 you contend to be notice and response.
18 MR.
WOODS: They certainly don't cover excuses
19 and pretext by perpetrators.
20 MS.
SOLTAN: Beg your pardon?
21 MR.
WOODS: That was not one of the issues
22 that we discussed.
23 MS.
SOLTAN: Say that again?
24 MR.
HENNIGAN: Expert testimony.
25 MR.
WOODS: We did not discuss the legitimacy
0015
1 of excuses proposed by offenders as a topic
for
2 discussion. This is not an alleged offender.
This is
3 a supervisory employee. The issues here
are what did
4 he know and what did he do in response
to what he knew.
5 Those are the general issues of testimony,
primary
6 issues for supervisory liability in a secular
content.
7 And
the judge made it very clear in his order
8 that this deposition will be based upon
secular
9 concepts of liability, and that's how we're
going to
10 proceed.
11 MS.
SOLTAN: Actually, Your Honor actually,
12 Counsel, I think what the Court did is the Court made
13 an indication that we were entitled to inquire into
the
14 custom and practice with the various diocese with
15 regard to the handle of sexual abuse cases. And that
16 is what Mr. Manly is attempting to lay a foundation
17 for. And I think you are doing entirely too narrow
a
18 drawing of what you consider the issues to be, which
I
19 think is inappropriate.
20 MR.
WOODS: We'll take it up with the judge if
21 you like, but I don't believe that's the scope of
it.
22 And I think these questions these initial questions
23 are simply an attempt at harassment.
24 MS.
SOLTAN: Okay. I think what we need to do
25 is we need to go off the record. Let's pull out the
0016
1 Court's order.
2 MR.
MANLY: Let's not do that.
3 MS.
SOLTAN: Wait a minute. Let's pull out
4 the meet and confer, and let's get the
judge on the
5 telephone. And if we're not going to be
laying a
6 foundation for the Cardinal's testimony,
there really
7 is not a lot of point. And my perception
is that this
8 is just an attempt to thwart the deposition
process,
9 and I'm very concerned about that. Is that
your
10 intent?
11 MR.
WOODS: It's obviously not our intent. We
12 are prepared to move forward on the basis that I
13 discussed. In the court order I reviewed it very
14 recently this witness is not called as an expert
15 witness. He's not to give any hypothetical or
16 opinion type testimony. He's only to give testimony
as
17 to his percipient knowledge and as to the practices
and
18 policies that he adopted and he used in his various
19 supervisory roles at Fresno and in Stockton.
20 MR.
SIMONS: Mr. Woods, I have the order in my
21 hand, which does not conform to your understanding.
22 Perhaps we should review it once again. I'm looking
at
23 page
24 MR.
WOODS: Why don't we just call the judge.
25 Let's call the judge and ask if these questions are
0017
1 appropriate.
2 MS.
SOLTAN: Let's go off the record for just
3 a few minutes. Let's go out in the hall
and confer.
4 Off
the record, please.
5 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. The time
6 is 10:14.
7 (An
off the record discussion was held.)
8 THE
VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record. The
9 time is 10:19.
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Cardinal, when is the first
time in your
12 entire life, as a layperson, as a deacon, as a priest,
13 that you ever heard of a cleric molesting a child?
14 A. The the best of my recollection
would be in
15 1981.
16 Q. Would that be Father Camacho?
17 A. No. Actually, I believe it would
be Father
18 Antonio Munoz.
19 Q. And when you found out that
Father Munoz had
20 allegedly molested a child, did that shock you?
21 MR.
WOODS: Hold on. I'm going to object to
22 the question. It's totally irrelevant as to the
23 evaluation of his conduct as a supervisor, whether
he
24 was shocked, not shocked. But I'll let him answer
the
25 question.
0018
1 THE
WITNESS: Well, obviously, it's despicable
2 that a priest would molest a minor in any
way.
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. And that was an unusual
event; correct?
5 A. "Unusual,"
meaning?
6 Q. Well, it didn't happen
every day that you had
7 a cleric under your charge that molested
a child; fair?
8 A. No. You asked what
the first time, and this
9 was the first time that I I recall.
10 Q. Right. So it was it was something
that
11 that, you know that was significant in your mind,
12 because you'd never had to deal with it before;
13 correct?
14 A. Well, it was significant, yes.
15 Q. Yeah. And that and did and is
that the
16 case where you met with the families?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. You never forgot about
Father Munoz,
19 did you, Your Eminence?
20 A. What do you mean?
21 Q. Did you did you ever at any
point in your
22 life forget that incident where you found out that
one
23 of a priest, albeit not a diocesan priest, but a
24 priest in your diocese under your charge, molested
a
25 child?
0019
1 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object. Irrelevant
2 to the subject matter. There's no difference
whether
3 he forgot or didn't forget at some point
in time. I'll
4 let him answer.
5 MR.
MANLY: Do you want to have a running
6 objection to every question under all bases
so you
7 don't have to object to every question?
8 MR.
WOODS: I'll take it, but I need to voice
9 the objections anyhow.
10 MR.
MANLY: Because I think what you intend to
11 do is what you did in the last deposition, which is
12 object to every single question to delay the
13 proceedings. You know what
14 MR.
WOODS: If you'd ask standard questions.
15 I mean, you're obviously is it unusual, how do you
16 feel about it, those those are aren't the type of
17 questions you should be asking here.
18 MR.
MANLY: Don, you know what, we've all
19 worked very hard to get here. And I would ask that
you
20 behave courteously, as I am, not be nasty, not be
21 insulting, because we're going to get this done a
lot
22 faster and get His Eminence out of here.
23 MR.
HENNIGAN: We're going to we're going
24 to to quote a line from a movie some time ago, "If
25 you think you're being courteous, you must be from
0020
1 New York City."
2 MR.
MANLY: Well, I'm certainly not from
3 Hancock Park.
4 Q. You didn't forget
about Father Munoz, right,
5 Your Eminence?
6 A. I'm
not sure what you mean by "forget about
7 Father Munoz."
8 Q. Well, since the first
time this happened and,
9 you know, you found it despicable and you
found it
10 shocking and you found it awful, and it's not something
11 you would forget; correct?
12 A. Well, I'm not sure about whether
I forgot it
13 or remembered it, but I acted quickly on it. That's
14 what I remember.
15 Q. When's the next time you had
a priest molest a
16 child, under your care in other words strike
17 that.
18 MR.
MANLY: Just relax. Let me ask my
19 question.
20 Q. When is the next time in your
career as an
21 Ordinary, Your Eminence, that you had a priest in
a
22 diocese that you were in charge of molest a child?
23 A. The next time, to the best of
my recollection,
24 was sometime in the early part of 1984.
25 Q. And who was that priest, Your
Eminence?
0021
1 A. That was Father Antonio
Camacho.
2 Q. And he was a priest
in the Diocese of
3 Stockton?
4 A. Well, he was an extern
priest. He didn't
5 belong to the diocese, but he was working
there.
6 Q. And so the jury will
understand, what is an
7 extern priest, Eminence?
8 A. An extern priest
would be someone who has come
9 into the diocese, but is not officially
a part of the
10 diocese through incardination. And it is assisting
11 for, usually, a limited period of time.
12 Q. Did Father was Father Munoz
an extern
13 priest, as well?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. Okay. And did he have Your Eminence,
so
16 the jury will understand, what are faculties as it
17 pertains to a priest?
18 A. Faculties is a term used to
cover certain
19 authorizations whereby a priest can hear confessions,
20 preach, and administer the sacraments.
21 Q. Okay. So he can function as
a priest of the
22 diocese; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you gave Father Camacho
faculties;
25 correct?
0022
1 A. I think Father Camacho
yes, I did.
2 Q. What are you looking
at, Your Eminence, just
3 out of curiosity?
4 A. What I'm looking
at if you recall, the
5 record of the last deposition has all the
documents in
6 it. And I just simply did a time line for
my own
7 from the documents, of of the dates and
things.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Because these priests
with one of both
10 being named Antonio and both from Mexico, to keep
11 them keep them straight.
12 Q. I see.
13 And
you gave Father Camacho faculties, as
14 well?
15 A. Well, Father Munoz was in the
diocese when I
16 came. So he had received faculties before, as opposed
17 to Father Camacho, who came while I was there.
18 Q. Okay. And what was the policy
that you had in
19 the Diocese of Stockton for investigating extern
20 priests, if any?
21 A. At that time, it was fairly
customary to have
22 some type of letter from the man's bishop or religious
23 superior saying that he was able to function in the
24 diocese.
25 Q. Did you have to have a letter
from his bishop
0023
1 saying he was of good morale character
and he can
2 function as a priest, something like that?
3 A. Well, in those days,
the letters were much
4 more general. And the assumption was that
if a priest
5 were in good standing in his diocese or
religious
6 community, that was all you needed.
7 Q. Okay. Have you seen
such a letter on
8 Father Camacho?
9 A. Father Camacho has
a letter from I believe
10 the letter is only for Father Munoz.
11 Q. Okay. Do you know, Eminence,
where the
12 Father Camacho letter is?
13 A. I don't know if there's an actual
letter with
14 him or not, because he actually was serving in the
15 Diocese of Oakland before he came here. So I I just
16 suspect that most likely that was done by telephone
17 between Vicar General in Stockton and the Vicar
18 General, Chancellor in Oakland.
19 Q. Now, when you found out that
Father Munoz had
20 molested a child or allegedly molested a child, did
21 you do an investigation?
22 A. Father Munoz was accused of
taking young
23 people, high school aged people, to Mexico and abuse
24 them. And when that information came to me, I acted
25 very quickly to terminate his faculties and his
0024
1 assignment in the diocese.
2 Q. Your Eminence, my
question is a little simpler
3 than that. I probably didn't articulate
it well.
4 Did
you conduct any kind of investigation or
5 inquiry upon finding out the accusation
against
6 Father Munoz?
7 A. No, because Father
Munoz was in Tijuana; he
8 was not in the Stockton diocese at the
time.
9 Q. Now, I think you
said that you did not have a
10 policy at that time regarding child sexual abuse in
11 Stockton. Is that correct?
12 A. To the best of my knowledge,
we didn't have a
13 specific policy.
14 Q. Okay. Was there any procedure
in place,
15 either in the Diocese of Stockton, put out by the
16 Metropolitan Diocese of San Francisco, put out by
the
17 Catholic Bishops, or put out by the Vatican, that
you
18 were aware of, that you were supposed to follow in
the
19 event you had this type of accusation, in 1981?
20 A. Well, as far as I recall, there
wasn't a
21 specific procedure in place in those days, like there
22 is today, to actually deal with these, step by step.
23 Q. When the Vatican I think it's
fairly
24 you're familiar with the policies and procedures of
the
25 Roman Catholic Church in America; right, Cardinal?
0025
1 A. Well, as they have
as I've used them, yes.
2 Q. Right. And prior
to getting to Stockton, you
3 served as a Vicar General; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you served as
a Chancellor; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is it fair to
say that both of those
8 positions require some level of expertise
in canon law?
9 A. I would say some
level, but not not much.
10 Q. And you you had previously testified,
or
11 given a declaration in a case, as an expert in canon
12 law in Monterey; correct I'm sorry, in Fresno;
13 correct?
14 A. An expert in terms of certain
aspects of canon
15 law.
16 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
17 Eminence,
what is an instruction when let
18 me ask the question this way: When the Vatican issues
19 an instruction on anything, what does that mean? What
20 does that word mean?
21 A. An instruction is normally some
direction on
22 some matter of spiritual pastoral work in the church.
23 Q. Can it be on a matter of administrative
or
24 financial matters?
25 A. I think it would be better to
say that most of
0026
1 these are are matters of canon law and
instruction
2 is simply clarifying or somehow amplifying
what's in
3 canon law.
4 Q. Okay. And if an instruction
is issued by the
5 Vatican that says this is the procedure
the diocese is
6 to follow, is it your obligation as the
Bishop of that
7 diocese to follow that instruction?
8 A. Well, it depends,
first of all, whether we are
9 aware of the instruction, whether we've
received it,
10 whether it has been explained to us what the reasons
11 are. And, usually, the Bishops' conferences around
the
12 world have to interpret the instruction according
to
13 the reality of their country.
14 Q. In in 1981, were you aware of
the existence
15 of any type of psychological professional or
16 psychological facility that specialized in the
17 treatment of sexual disorders?
18 A. In what year?
19 Q. '81, Your Eminence.
20 A. I actually don't recall in 1981
whether I was
21 aware of that or not.
22 Q. Okay. How about in 1982, were
you aware of
23 that in 1982?
24 A. I don't believe so.
25 Q. How about in 1983, were you
aware of that in
0027
1 1983, Your Eminence?
2 MR.
WOODS: Could I have a clarification?
3 What is the "that"?
4 MR.
MANLY: I'm sorry.
5 Q. The original question
was: Are you aware of
6 any professional or treatment facility,
psychiatric or
7 psychological treatment facility, that
specialized in
8 the treatment of sexual disorders?
9 A. I don't believe so,
in that year.
10 Q. How about 1984, Your Eminence?
11 A. I simply don't recall 1984.
12 Q. You don't recall whether you
knew in 1984?
13 A. I don't, in 1984.
14 Q. And how about 1985, did you
become aware of
15 that in 1985?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Eminence, when is the
first time, if
18 ever, that you visited the Servants of the Paraclete
as
19 an Ordinary, any of their facilities?
20 A. I don't recall ever visiting.
21 Q. Have you ever visited a treatment
facility, be
22 it the Servants of the Paraclete, House of Affirmation,
23 St. Luke's, as an Ordinary to hear a report or an
24 evaluation about a priest or a cleric?
25 A. During my time in Fresno and
Stockton, no.
0028
1 Q. How about at any
time in your career?
2 MR.
WOODS: Hold on. I'm going to object to
3 that as beyond the scope of the deposition.
4 MR.
MANLY: Okay. Well, all right.
5 Q. Let me let me try
it this way: As a
6 Bishop, had you ever received any correspondence
from
7 the Servants of the Paraclete prior to
1985?
8 A. I simply don't recall.
9 Q. Okay. Is it your
testimony today that you did
10 not know prior to 1985 that the Servants of the
11 Paraclete existed?
12 A. I simply don't recall whether
they I knew
13 or not. I had no contact with them.
14 Q. I'm sorry. You know, I meant
to tell you
15 this. If I at any point I interrupt your answer,
16 please let me know. And if you interrupt my question,
17 and you haven't done that so far, Your Eminence, I'll
18 let you know. Okay?
19 And
the other thing I meant to tell you is, if
20 at any point you need to get up, take a break, use
the
21 restroom, for any reason, you stop me, okay, as long
as
22 I don't have a question pending. This is not an
23 endurance contest. Okay, Your Eminence?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Okay. Do you know what year
the Servants of
0029
1 the Paraclete was founded?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. And what is your
understanding of what the
4 order known as the Servants of the Paraclete
do?
5 MR.
WOODS: You want his understanding prior
6 to roughly September 1985?
7 MR.
MANLY: I want his understanding now.
8 MR.
WOODS: Well, I don't think his
9 understanding now is within the scope of
this
10 deposition. The only thing is what he knew, did,
11 responded to during his time in Fresno and Stockton.
12 MR.
MANLY: He said he wasn't sure, so I want
13 to I want to probe it.
14 Q. And so I want to ask the question:
Do you
15 know what they do?
16 A. While I was in Fresno and Stockton,
I simply
17 can't recall if I'd ever heard of them or not.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know what they
do?
19 MR.
WOODS: You know, again, I'm going to
20 object for the record that if he knows now what they
21 do, it's not relevant to what he knew during the
22 relevant time period.
23 MS.
SOLTAN: Don't argue. Just go. He's not
24 instructing.
25 MR.
WOODS: Go ahead. I'll let him answer.
0030
1 MR.
MANLY: What's that?
2 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to let him answer the
3 question.
4 MR.
MANLY: Oh, I'm I'm sorry. Okay.
5 Fine.
6 MR.
WOODS: We'll go a little bit, to test
7 this.
8 BY MR. MANLY:
9 Q. You can answer, Your
Eminence.
10 A. I simply don't recall the first
time I heard
11 about the Servants of the Paraclete.
12 Q. In fairness, my question is
a little
13 different.
14 My
question is: Do you know today,
15 Cardinal Mahony, what they do?
16 MR.
WOODS: Same objection.
17 You
can answer.
18 THE
WITNESS: I'm sorry.
19 MR.
MANLY: It's my mistake.
20 MR.
WOODS: Just wants a general comment.
21 THE
WITNESS: I believe they offer services
22 for priests, religious, I'm not sure who else, of
23 where all kinds of psychological problems and
24 problems difficulties in ministry.
25 ///
0031
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. At any point while
you were the Bishop of
3 let me ask this: When you were in incardinated
was
4 Monterey still Monterey Fresno or was it
Monterey I
5 mean, was it Fresno at that point?
6 A. In 1962, it was the
Diocese of
7 Monterey Fresno.
8 Q. Okay. And when did
that change,
9 Your Eminence?
10 A. That changed in the fall of
1967.
11 Q. So for from '62 to '67, you
were a priest
12 of the diocese in Monterey Fresno; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During that time, did your diocese,
to your
15 recollection, ever receive a visit from anyone from
16 either the Servants of the Paraclete or any other
17 treatment facility, talking about their services?
18 A. Which time frame again, please.
19 Q. '62 to '67.
20 A. I don't recall any.
21 Q. Okay. And how about from '67
to 1980, did
22 anybody from the Servants of the Paraclete or any
other
23 treatment facility visit your diocese and discuss
with
24 you or any other member of the diocese any of their
25 services for priests?
0032
1 MR.
WOODS: Okay. I wasn't quite sure. From
2 the Paracletes or any other treatment facility,
whether
3 run by the Paracletes or not?
4 MR.
MANLY: That's correct.
5 THE
WITNESS: I simply don't recall any.
6 BY MR. MANLY:
7 Q. And is it your understanding
that the Servants
8 of the Paracletes, one of the services
they provide is
9 they treat or counsel or provide services
to alleged
10 child abusers?
11 MR.
WOODS: Now, do you want his understanding
12 when he was in Stockton and Fresno or his understanding
13 now?
14 MR.
MANLY: Either one.
15 MR.
WOODS: Okay. Well, I'm going to object
16 that his current understanding is irrelevant to the
17 issues involved in any of the cases during this time
18 period. And I'll let him answer with that
19 understanding to work that into your answer somehow.
20 THE
WITNESS: During my time in Fresno and
21 Stockton, I was unaware of what the Paracletes did.
22 BY MR. MANLY:
23 Q. And are you aware of that now?
24 A. Of some of their services.
25 Q. Eminence, you're a member of
the National
0033
1 Conference of Catholic Bishops; correct?
2 A. Well, now it's United
States Conference of
3 Catholic Bishops.
4 Q. Okay. Formerly United
States Catholic
5 Conference, formerly the NCCB; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And you were
you became a member of
8 that umbrella organization and its predecessors
and
9 successors at the time you became ordained
to the
10 episcopacy; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. When is the first time
you attended a
13 meeting of bishops in the United States?
14 A. I don't remember exactly. But
most likely, it
15 would have been the November meeting of 1975.
16 Q. Okay. And that was shortly after
you were
17 ordained an Auxiliary Bishop for Fresno?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you recall the St. Luke
Institute, at
20 any time prior to 1985, being discussed at the Bishops'
21 meetings you attended?
22 A. I honestly don't recall that.
23 Q. Do you think it's possible it
was discussed
24 and you just don't remember?
25 MR.
WOODS: Calls for speculation.
0034
1 THE
WITNESS: Well, normally the Conference of
2 Bishops agenda does not allow outside speakers
to
3 address the Bishops. All of the business
is handled by
4 Bishops.
5 BY MR. MANLY:
6 Q. Did the NCCB or its
predecessor did the
7 NCCB or its predecessor entities actually
originally
8 fund the founding of St. Luke's?
9 A. Could you repeat
that? I'm not
10 Q. Sure. Did the Bishops, any of
the Bishops'
11 umbrella organizations, actually fund St. Luke's,
the
12 founding of St. Luke's?
13 A. I simply don't know.
14 Q. Okay. Do you ever recall seeing
a line item
15 on the Bishops' meetings, prior to 1985 sorry.
16 Do
you ever recall seeing an agenda item, a
17 line item, or any reference in any of the NCCB agendas,
18 either executive or open, referencing the issue of
the
19 abuse of children the sexual abuse of children by
20 priests?
21 MR.
WOODS: At any time?
22 MR.
MANLY: Prior to between 1975 and 1985.
23 THE
WITNESS: I simply don't recall any.
24 BY MR. MANLY:
25 Q. Okay. And I'm not including
the Collegeville
0035
1 meeting, because you've talked about that.
2 Okay.
So your answer was, prior to
3 Collegeville, you don't recall any?
4 A. I don't recall any.
5 Q. Is it is it your
testimony there weren't
6 any, or is it your testimony that you just
can't recall
7 any?
8 A. No, just my testimony
that I don't recall any
9 such item.
10 Q. Okay. When did you personally
first become
11 aware that child sexual abuse was a problem in society?
12 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of
13 the question. "Problem in society" is pretty
vague in
14 general, but I'll let him answer.
15 BY MR. MANLY:
16 Q. Well, let me ask it this way:
When did you
17 first learn it was not a good thing for adults to
have
18 sex with children?
19 MR.
WOODS: Is that facetious?
20 MR.
MANLY: No. I'm trying to address your
21 objection. I'm trying to be
22 MR.
WOODS: Okay. I have a problem with that
23 question, but I'll let him answer it.
24 THE
WITNESS: Well, I probably from my
25 parents.
0036
1 BY MR. MANLY:
2 Q. Right. And you've
known your whole life, like
3 any right thinking person, that it's wrong;
correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And at some
point you attended and I
6 don't remember the dates, and forgive me
you
7 attended Catholic University; correct?
8 A. Yes, Catholic University
of America
9 Q. Right.
10 A. in Washington.
11 Q. And is Catholic University owned
by the
12 Bishops?
13 A. I'm not certain. It was established
by the
14 Bishops and is a separate corporation.
15 Q. I think also at one point you
served on the
16 board; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It's a reputable institution;
correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you went there, and you've
sent, over the
21 years, employees and priests there for various things;
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. For the School of Social Work;
right?
25 MR.
WOODS: Is there a School of Social Work,
0037
1 is that the question?
2 BY MR. MANLY:
3 Q. You've sent priests
to the School of Social
4 Work there; correct?
5 MR.
WOODS: Before 19?
6 MR.
MANLY: '85.
7 MR.
WOODS: Okay.
8 THE
WITNESS: I don't think I sent anybody to
9 the school before 19 up to 1985.
10 BY MR. MANLY:
11 Q. Okay. Maybe Woods will give
me Mr. Woods
12 will give me some leeway on this.
13 Did
you send anybody after '85?
14 A. I don't recall sending anybody
to social work
15 school. Other schools.
16 Q. Other Bishops you know have
attended that
17 school; correct?
18 MR.
WOODS: The social work school?
19 MR.
MANLY: Correct.
20 Q. Like Mike Driscoll, for example?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR.
WOODS: I think the question is: Do you
23 know that Mike Driscoll, whoever that is
24 MR.
MANLY: He he answered the question.
25 THE
WITNESS: I'm not sure. I know two or
0038
1 three who went to Catholic University.
I'm not sure
2 about Mr. Driscoll.
3 BY MR. MANLY:
4 Q. Okay. You've sent
priests certainly before
5 1985, priests went to the school of canon
law there;
6 right? That you knew?
7 MR.
WOODS: Okay. Okay. I'm going to object
8 to the form of the question. There's a
difference
9 between did you send
10 MR.
MANLY: Fair that's fair.
11 Q. You were aware that priests
from California
12 frequently went to Catholic University to get a
13 doctorate in canon law, fair, prior to 1985?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you thought it was
a good school;
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you had a good experience
there; correct?
19 A. In the School of Social Work,
yes.
20 Q. Okay. Did you study the issue
of child
21 welfare while you were at Catholic
22 University, Eminence?
23 A. I don't recall the curriculum
exactly. But
24 the priests who went to the School of Social Work
were
25 usually on a track of organization and administration.
0039
1 Q. Did you at any point
have any class that in
2 any way referenced the issue of child welfare
while you
3 were at Catholic University, if you remember?
4 A. To the best of my
recollection, it would do
5 with with abandoned children, orphans,
children from
6 broken homes. That's the best of my recollection.
7 Q. Okay. And is it it's
fair to say that
8 after you left Catholic University, you
obtained a
9 license in social work, correct, from California,
the
10 State of California?
11 A. I don't recall whether at that
point it was a
12 registration as an RSW. Then there was an LSW. I
13 don't recall the sequence, actually.
14 Q. Okay. Did you obtain some type
of
15 certification, license, registration, or otherwise
from
16 the State of California as a social worker?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Okay. And from what period of
time for
19 what period of time did you have such a certification,
20 Eminence?
21 A. I returned from Catholic University
in 1960
22 '64. And I was in Catholic Charities until 1970. So
23 I I suspect it was during that period of time.
24 Q. Okay. Did you do any clinical
work either at
25 Catholic University or in Fresno?
0040
1 A. And by "clinical
work," you mean?
2 Q. Counseling?
3 A. No, because I was
in the organizational
4 administrative track, and we did not do
personal
5 counseling.
6 Q. Did you do so did
you no counseling hours
7 whatsoever?
8 A. Very little.
9 Q. Okay. Let me show
you a document
10 MR.
MANLY: Would you hand one to Mr. Woods,
11 please?
12 MS.
SOLTAN: Yes.
13 BY MR. MANLY:
14 Q. that I'll represent to you is
the Cal State
15 University Fresno general catalog for the social work
16 department for 1965 and 1966.
17 MR.
MANLY: And just show one to the Cardinal,
18 please.
19 MS.
SOLTAN: Are you going to attach it?
20 MR.
MANLY: Yeah, we're go ahead and attach
21 this as 1.
22 (Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 1 was marked for
23
identification.)
24 BY MR. MANLY:
25 Q. And I'd like you to look at
the document,
0041
1 Your Eminence, and familiarize yourself
with.
2 MR.
WOODS: Do you have an exhibit number for
3 it?
4 MR.
MANLY: One.
5 MS.
SOLTAN: Exhibit 1.
6 MR.
WOODS: Exhibit 1?
7 You
want to direct his attention to a specific
8 part or do you want him to read this whole
thing?
9 MR.
MANLY: Actually, what I'm going to ask
10 him is what classes he taught.
11 THE
WITNESS: Excuse me?
12 BY MR. MANLY:
13 Q. I'm going to ask you, Your Eminence,
what
14 classes in that catalog you taught, please. So that's
15 what I'm that's where I'm going.
16 Just
let me know when you're ready.
17 A. To the best of my recollection,
the courses
18 you see here, I believe are required courses for social
19 work degree. The courses I taught were for people
who
20 needed some segment of social welfare training for
21 another degree, for example, to be a teacher or
22 probation officer or something else. So I didn't
23 actually teach in the degree program.
24 And
I didn't usually teach there at Fresno
25 State, but one of the adjunct small campuses, for
0042
1 example, Visalia. And I taught primarily,
I guess what
2 you would call, on Page 221, classes like
127, Group
3 and Community Services.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember
any other classes you
5 taught, Eminence?
6 A. Again, the best of
my recollection is that's
7 the only field in which I taught at all,
was that field
8 of group work and community organization.
9 MR.
WOODS: What what number was that?
10 MR.
MANLY: 127.
11 THE
WITNESS: On Page 221.
12 BY MR. MANLY:
13 Q. And did that have anything to
do with the
14 the care and the care of children?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Eminence, as the Bishop
of a diocese,
17 be it Fresno well, actually, as the Bishop of the
18 Diocese of Stockton, you are, in effect, the chief
19 executive officer of the entity; correct?
20 A. Well, the term is close, but
there's not an
21 exact secular term.
22 Q. Okay. But is that the closest
one you're
23 comfortable with, CEO, if you had to analogize it
to a
24 secular term?
25 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object to the word
0043
1 "comfortable with." I don't know
what that means.
2 THE
WITNESS: It is not a term we use in the
3 church or eclesiology.
4 BY MR. MANLY:
5 Q. Right. You use "Ordinary";
fair?
6 A. Well, we use "shepherd
of the diocese,"
7 basically.
8 Q. Okay. As the shepherd
of the diocese, you are
9 the chief human relations officer; correct?
You make,
10 ultimately, the personnel decisions for priests,
11 laypeople, et cetera, the power rests with you; fair?
12 MR.
WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of
13 the question. There's about four questions in there.
14 But I'll let him answer it.
15 BY MR. MANLY:
16 Q. You can answer.
17 A. Well, there are many people
in a diocese who
18 are delegated to retain and terminate personnel.
19 Pastors, school principals. There are a number of
20 people involved at various levels that have delegated
21 authority.
22 Q. But you, ultimately, have the
authority. If
23 you choose to delegate it, that's your business, but
24 it's your authority; correct?
25 A. Ultimately, I I suppose canonically,
it
0044
1 would be my authority.
2 MS.
SOLTAN: I apologize. I didn't hear that
3 answer. Could I ask the reporter to state
the answer.
4 MR.
WOODS: Could we have the question back,
5 too.
6 (The
record was read as follows:
7 "But
you, ultimately, have the authority.
8 if
you choose to delegate it, that's
9 your
business, but it's your authority;
10 correct?
11
Answer, Ultimately, I I suppose
12 canonically,
it would be my authority."
13 BY MR. MANLY:
14 Q. Was there a custom and practice
in the diocese
15 of Stockton I understand you said there wasn't a
16 policy. But was there a practice or custom in the
17 Diocese of Stockton that you established when you
got
18 there, on dealing with child sexual abuse by employees
19 of the diocese?
20 A. No. Since no.
21 Q. Was there is a custom and practice
that you
22 were aware of, either as a priest or a Bishop, an
23 Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Fresno, when you
24 were there, to deal with child sexual abuse?
25 A. No, to the best of my recollection,
there was
0045
1 not.
2 Q. Have you ever heard
the term, Your Eminence,
3 "oral history" in relationship
to dealing with the
4 transfer of alleged priest perpetrators?
5 MR.
WOODS: Hold on. Could I hear that back?
6 MR.
MANLY: I'll repeat it.
7 Q. Have you ever heard
the term "oral history" in
8 connection with the transfer of a Bishop
of an alleged
9 priest perpetrator?
10 MR.
WOODS: Are you say oral, O R A L?
11 MR.
MANLY: O R A L, yes, sir.
12 MR.
WOODS: Oral history?
13 MR.
MANLY: Correct, that's what I'm saying.
14 MR.
WOODS: As a term of art of some kind?
15 MR.
MANLY: I think the question stands.
16 THE
WITNESS: Well, you talked about in
17 your question, about the transfer of a Bishop.
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. Did I say Bishop? I meant priest.
I
20 apologize.
21 Have
you heard, as a Bishop
22 A. Could you yes.
23 Q. Yeah, I'll restate it. Fine.
24 As
a Bishop, have you ever heard the term
25 "oral history" associated with the transfer
of an
0046
1 alleged perpetrator priest?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever decided,
either in Stockton or
4 Fresno or any time prior to 1985, when
you were dealing
5 with a perpetrator, not to document the
file entirely,
6 but rather communicate orally to your subordinates
or
7 your successor Bishops regarding that abuse?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. And you've
never heard the term "oral
10 history" being advocated as a way to conceal
the abuse
11 of a priest; is that fair, Your Eminence?
12 A. That's correct. I have not heard
of that.
13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn
that there
14 were treatment facilities available for Bishops to
send
15 priests, either for evaluation or treatment, that
had
16 been accused of child molestation?
17 MR.
WOODS: If it was before
18 BY MR. MANLY:
19 Q. I just want to know
20 MR.
WOODS: September of 1985.
21 THE
WITNESS: I don't recall exactly, but I
22 I recall certainly, in June of 1985.
23 MR.
MANLY: We'll attach we'll attach this
24 document as next in order.
25 Can
you give Mr. Woods a copy, please?
0047
1 MS.
SOLTAN: Which one are we talking about?
2 Okay.
3 This
is Exhibit 2?
4 MR.
MANLY: Yeah.
5 Q. Would you take a
moment to look at the
6 document, Your Eminence.
7 (Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 2 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 MR.
MANLY: When your counsel's done, I'll...
10 MR.
WOODS: John, could you read the second
11 word of the second line, after "monastery"?
12 MR.
MANLY: It's inaugurate.
13 MR.
WOODS: Inaugurate?
14 MR.
MANLY: Yeah.
15 MR.
WOODS: Okay.
16 BY MR. MANLY:
17 Q. Eminence, do you have you ever
seen this
18 document before?
19 A. To the best of my recollection,
no.
20 Q. While you were a priest, an
Auxiliary Bishop,
21 or a Bishop, did any of the dioceses you worked for,
to
22 your knowledge, receive any type of communication
like
23 this, a periodic memo from the Servants of the
24 Paraclete?
25 A. |