Volume 2 – Volume 2 of Part 1 Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez January 13, 1994 https://www.abqjournal.com/news/arch/2ARCH.HTM • Volume 1 – January 12, 1994 • Volume 2 – January 13, 1994 • Volume 3 – January 14, 1994 • Volume 4 – January 15, 1994 • Volume 5 – October 3, 1994 • Volume 6 – October 4, 1994 • Volume 7 – October 5, 1994 • Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994 Page 150 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 2 STATE OF NEW MEXICO 3 4 JOHN DOES I THROUGH III, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs. CV-91-11688 7 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 8 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 9 Defendants. 10 _________________________________________________________ 11 JOHN DOES IV and V, 12 Plaintiffs, 13 vs. CV-91-11989 14 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 15 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 16 Defendants. 17 _________________________________________________________ 18 JOHN DOES VI and VIII, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 vs. CV-91-12302 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 22 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 23 Defendants. 24 Page 151 1 JOHN DOE VIII, 2 Plaintiff, 3 vs. CV-92-00128 4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 6 Defendants. 7 ________________________________________________________ 8 JOHN DOES IX and X, 9 Plaintiffs, 10 vs. CV-92-00312 11 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 12 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 13 Defendants. 14 _________________________________________________________ 15 JOHN DOE XI through XVII, 16 Plaintiffs, 17 vs. CV-92-09746 18 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 19 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI, 20 Defendants. 21 Page 152 1 JOHN DOE, 2 Plaintiff, 3 vs. CV-93-02879 4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE 6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 7 Defendants. ________________________________________________________ 8 JOHN DOE, 9 Plaintiff, 10 vs. CV-93-02881 11 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE 12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, 13 BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 14 Defendants. 15 _________________________________________________________ 16 JOHN DOE, 17 Plaintiff, 18 vs. CV-93-02883 19 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 20 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE 21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 22 Defendants. Page 153 1 JOHN DOE, 2 Plaintiff, 3 vs. CV-93-06343 4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE 6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 7 Defendants. ________________________________________________________ 8 JOHN DOE, 9 Plaintiff, 10 vs. CV-93-07186 11 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE 12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, 13 BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 14 Defendants. 15 ________________________________________________________ 16 JOHN DOE, 17 Plaintiff, 18 vs. CV-93-07188 19 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 20 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER, BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE 21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, 22 Defendants. Page 154 1 JOHN DOES I, II and III 2 Plaintiffs. 3 vs. CV-92-06892 4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE 5 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF FALL RIVER, 6 MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE SERVANTS OF THE PARACLETE, INC., a New Mexico. 7 non-profit corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER, 8 Defendants. ________________________________________________________ 9 JOHN DOE IV, 10 Plaintiff, 11 vs. CV-92-08011 12 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 13 ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF FALL RIVER, MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE SERVANTS 14 OF THE PARACLETE, INC, a New Mexico non-profit corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER, 15 Defendants. 16 ________________________________________________________ 17 ELAINE MONTOYA and PAUL MONTOYA, 18 Plaintiffs, 19 vs. CV-92-08933 20 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 21 and FATHER ARTHUR J. PERRAULT, 22 Defendants. Page 155 1 MICHAEL D. HARRIS, DANA KAINZ, PETER D. ST. CYR, CONRAD L. JIRON, 2 and ED TRUJILLO, 3 Plaintiffs, 4 vs. CV-92-10319 5 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation, 6 and FATHER ARTHUR J. PERRAULT, 7 Defendants. 8 ___________________________________________________________ 9 10 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 11 VOLUME II January 13, 1994 12 9:22 AM 5625 Isleta Boulevard, SW 13 Albuquerque, NM 14 15 TAKEN BY: BRUCE PASTERNACK, ESQ. ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFFS 16 17 REPORTED BY: Jenifer L. Russin, RPR-CM, NM CCR #182 Russin Reporting 18 317 Commercial, NE, Suite 200-G Albuquerque, NM 87102 Page 156 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 BRUCE E. PASTERNACK, P.C. Two Woodward Center 4 700 Lomas, NE, Suite 100 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 5 BY: BRUCE E. PASTERNACK and NEIL R. BLAKE 6 STEPHEN E. TINKLER 7 MERIT BENNETT 425 Sandoval 8 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 9 REESE & MATHEY 160 E. Flaming Gorge 10 Green River, Wyoming 82935 BY: ROBERT J. REESE 11 12 For the Witness: 13 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM Attorneys at Law 14 718 Central, SW Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 15 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM 16 For the Defendant Archdiocese of Santa Fe: 17 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN 18 6400 Uptown Blvd, NE, Suite 630E Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110 19 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY 20 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. 414 Silver Avenue, SW 21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH 22 EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A. 23 6400 Uptown Blvd., NE Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110 24 BY: PAUL BARDACKE Page 157 1 For the Archdiocese of Santa Fe (cont.): 2 SHEEHAN, SHEEHAN & STELZNER 707 Broadway, NE 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: LUIS STELZNER 4 5 For the Servants of the Paraclete: 6 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. 500 Marquette, NW, Suite 1100 7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: ALAN KONRAD 8 JILL BURTRAM 9 Also Present: 10 Jerry Goffe 11 12 13 I N D E X PAGE   14 EXAMINATION OF ROBERT F. SANCHEZ By Mr. Pasternack (Continued) 158 15 Page 158 1 MR. GOFFE: This is the continuance of the 2 testimony of Archbishop Sanchez in case numbers that will 3 be listed at the conclusion of this deposition from 4 January 12th, 1994. Today is January 13th, 1994. The 5 time, as indicated on the screen, is 9:22 AM. We are on 6 the record. 7 ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 8 After having been previously duly sworn under oath, 9 was questioned and testified further as follows: 10 EXAMINATION (Continued) 11 BY MR. PASTERNACK: 12 Q. Good morning, Archbishop. 13 A. Good morning, Mr. Pasternack. 14 Q. Archbishop, I want to ask you a few questions to 15 begin with about the relationship, if any, between 16 Servants of the Paraclete and the Archdiocese as you 17 understood that relationship to exist. 18 Do you know whether there was any time under -- or 19 wherein Servants of the Paraclete or Via Coeli was under 20 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe? 21 A. As far as I know, Via Coeli was an independent 22 religious community that was established -- at least my 23 recollection is that it was established sometime in the 24 early 1950s as a center of retreat for priests. I'm not 25 certain when they assumed their incorporation papers. I'm Page 159 1 sure the documentation would indicate that. 2 Q. I'm going to show you a letter which I'll mark 3 as Exhibit 2, which predated your installation as 4 Archbishop, but it purports to be on Servants of the 5 Paraclete letterhead to Dr. John Salazar, and says at the 6 bottom, on the preprinted letterhead, "Via Coeli is under 7 authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe." 8 And I simply want to ask you if that refreshes your 9 recollection about any period of time when such a 10 relationship existed. 11 [Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.] 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, where 13 are you referring to? 14 MR. PASTERNACK: Look at the bottom, 15 please, on the preprinted letterhead, on the bottom. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Oh. This is a document 17 on Via Coeli letterhead. Okay. 18 A. Via Coeli is under the Archbishop of Santa Fe -- 19 what's the date of that, '67? 20 Q. '67, yes. 21 A. The only thing that I can imagine that's 22 referring to, if in fact it is, would be a canonical 23 requirement for religious communities to become what they 24 call pontifical in nature. We don't have any particulars, 25 any information about the particulars of this community Page 160 1 when they became pontifical in nature. But until they 2 become pontifical in nature, they then have reference to 3 the local diocesan bishop, not as their immediate 4 superior, but as a supervisor, much like he would be a 5 supervisor over any Catholic group of men or Catholic 6 group of women who might be organized in the Archdiocese. 7 Until that -- until they're recognized as a 8 pontifical community, they are considered to be a group of 9 pious men or a group of pious women who have organized 10 together for some specific purpose, and they have to have 11 like a spiritual director, a spiritual guide, and canon 12 law names the local ordinary, the local bishop, as that 13 person. 14 When the time comes that that group, both in numbers 15 and in their mission, are able to receive the permission 16 or the approval of the Holy Sea to be named a pontifical 17 religious community. Until that time, they're considered 18 to be under the direction of the code of canon law, which 19 calls, then, for the local bishop to have that spiritual 20 reflection with them as to their activity, whether it be 21 an organization like the Servants of the Paraclete or 22 whether it be an organization like local Knights of 23 Columbus or some other organization that is organized for 24 the purpose of good works within the diocese. 25 Q. Would a shorthand way of describing it be that Page 161 1 until they get officially recognized by the Pope as their 2 own community that reports directly to the Pope, they 3 report to the local archbishop? 4 A. Not so much reporting, because they're 5 independent, but he has sort of like the -- I guess 6 responsibility for their spiritual activity. If they 7 begin to deal in things which are contrary to Church 8 teaching, it would be his responsibility to say, "Hey, 9 that's contrary to Church teaching." 10 Q. Do you know if and when Paraclete became 11 directly recognized by the Pope and was no longer under 12 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe? 13 A. I'm sure they were approved, but I don't have 14 any recollection when that date was, Mr. Pasternack. 15 Q. Are you aware of any time during which the 16 insurance that covered Servants of the Paraclete was 17 primarily designated under the name of the Archdiocese of 18 Santa Fe with Paraclete being a co-insured? 19 A. I have no idea about insurance. That was 20 never -- I'm a cleric, and insurance was just another 21 areA. I have no ideA. 22 Q. When you were Archbishop, how did you view the 23 relationship between the Servant General of Servants of 24 the Paraclete and you, as Archbishop? 25 A. I viewed him as being totally independent of Page 162 1 myself, because they had their Servant General. The very 2 fact that they had a Servant General who was their number 3 one superior, they operated totally independent of the 4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. I was never consulted about 5 their meetings or their elections. They held everything 6 totally independent. 7 Q. What is Bethany House on the Rio Grande? 8 A. Bethany House on the Rio Grande is a home that 9 was established, I believe, sometime in the 1970s as a 10 retreat house for priests. One of the priests of the 11 Archdiocese, who is now deceased, Father Carl Hammer, had 12 spent several years working with priests around the 13 country in prayer groups trying to form centers of 14 spiritual enrichment for the clergy. They felt that this 15 was crucial. 16 And so when he returned to the Archdiocese, he 17 proposed that we would try to find a place that we could 18 designate as a center for spiritual enrichment where 19 priests could come and spend one, two, three days, if they 20 could afford it, or longer, and simply spend it in prayer, 21 have the spiritual guidance and direction of Father Carl 22 Hammer who would be there and be able to enrich their own 23 spirituality that way. And he envisioned it as serving 24 not only priests from the Archdiocese who might want to 25 avail themselves of that opportunity, but any other priest Page 163 1 who might want to come in for that purpose. 2 Q. Was Bethany House on the Rio Grande, during your 3 tenure as Archbishop, under your authority? 4 A. It belonged to the Archdiocese -- well, it 5 didn't belong to us. We didn't own it, as such, for a 6 long time, but it was under my authority. 7 Q. What type of problems were you familiar with 8 that led priests to go to Bethany House? 9 A. It didn't require problems to use Bethany House. 10 It was a center of prayer. They had regular prayer 11 meetings for priests who wanted to attend every Thursday 12 evening. I recall their own ordination date as Thursday, 13 the day the Lord instituted the Last Supper and the 14 Eucharist and the priesthood. They had special gatherings 15 for days of recollection, where we would spend the day 16 together in meditation and reflection on one or another of 17 the mysteries of the Lord. It wasn't necessarily a center 18 for problem priests at all. Anyone could go there for 19 enrichment. 20 Q. Were you aware of any occasions on which a 21 priest with an alcohol problem or a sexual disorder went 22 to Bethany House on the Rio Grande? 23 A. It's possible that a priest who may have had a 24 problem with alcohol or sexuality was asked to go there 25 for a period of time, not for healing purposes so much as Page 164 1 waiting to be transferred or waiting for some other 2 appointment, whatever it may be. I can't recall any 3 person, you know, individual name, but it's a possibility. 4 Q. Is it correct to say, then, that you don't 5 recall ever directing anyone to Bethany House for problems 6 relating to alcoholism or sexual misconduct? 7 A. I never asked anyone to go there because of 8 their alcoholism or sexual misconduct. I did ask priests 9 to go there as an interim between where they were serving 10 and until their next appointment, but not as a center for 11 cure or spiritual help that way. 12 Q. Let me try to rephrase it. Did you ever ask any 13 priest who you knew or suspected of having an alcohol or 14 sexual abuse problem to go to Bethany House? 15 A. You say, "to go to Bethany House." Do you have 16 in mind, Mr. Pasternack, a temporary visit, or did you 17 have in mind something permanent? I'm not quite certain 18 what you're -- 19 Q. For whatever duration. 20 A. My memory doesn't recall individuals at all 21 right now, Mr. Pasternack. But I don't want to say that I 22 didn't, because that's a possibility. I could very well 23 have. There were various priests, as I say, who spent 24 time in Bethany House for various reasons, most of them 25 waiting for an assignment. Page 165 1 Q. Were some of them also waiting for transport to 2 Servants of the Paraclete or Southdown? 3 A. I'm trying to recall any individual instances. 4 I do not have a memory that says I sent individuals there 5 for that purpose. It's possible. I could say that. 6 Q. What is the Dominican Retreat House? 7 A. The Dominican Retreat House is a center for 8 spiritual enrichment principally for the laity of the 9 Archdiocese. And in recent years, it's also taken on an 10 ecumenical tone inasmuch as the facility is open to other 11 ecumenical groups of other denominations. 12 The New Mexico Conference of Churches has used it 13 extensively. Various churches, non-Catholic churches in 14 Albuquerque, have asked to use the facility, as well, for 15 their retreats. But most of the time, it is a center for 16 spiritual enrichment for the Catholic people of the 17 Archdiocese of Santa Fe operated by Dominican Sisters. 18 Q. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the -- is the 19 Bethany House on Pajarito Road? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. And is it close to the facility that Servants of 22 the Paraclete operates on Pajarito Road? 23 A. It happens to be close to that facility, but 24 there is no relationship between the two. I would like to 25 clarify here that the reason why that property on Pajarito Page 166 1 Road, which is now known as Bethany House, why that was 2 obtained was through the generosity of a family here in 3 Albuquerque who heard that Father Hammer was looking for a 4 place. They owned that property and offered it, then, to 5 the Archdiocese for use on a rental basis and ultimately 6 with the option to purchase, if we so chose. But the only 7 reason that was selected was because of the generosity of 8 a donor. 9 Q. So was the Servants of the Paraclete facility on 10 Pajarito already there at the time that Bethany House was 11 opened? 12 A. Oh, it had been there for many years, yes. 13 Q. What was your understanding of the function of 14 the Servants of the Paraclete facility on Pajarito Road 15 during the time that you were Archbishop? 16 A. The facility on Pajarito Road operated by the 17 Servants of the Paraclete -- I believe it's commonly 18 referred to as simply "the VillA." I had the 19 understanding that it was a center perhaps with two 20 purposes: One, to accommodate several senior priests from 21 throughout the country who needed at least minimal care to 22 see that they were not eating foods that would be harmful 23 to them -- many were diabetic in their advanced age -- and 24 to see that they would take the proper medicines and 25 prescriptions at the proper times. They had several men Page 167 1 there who were, in a sense, dependent upon others for 2 that, so they could go there. That was one aspect of it, 3 as I recall. 4 The second aspect was that it would also serve as a 5 house to accommodate those priests who had attended their 6 program in Jemez Springs, and having completed the 7 program, the center at the Villa would be like a halfway 8 house or a station where they would be allowed to remain 9 for whatever period of time that they had designated 10 before returning them to their own diocese, or whatever 11 ultimate decision was made for them. 12 Q. Now, when you say halfway house for those who 13 had attended the Paraclete program in Jemez, would that 14 include those who attended for substance abuse problems 15 like alcoholism? 16 A. I believe it did, because to the best of my 17 recollection -- and I was not -- I did not have intimate 18 knowledge of the Servants of the Paraclete in those years, 19 but it was my understanding, especially in the early '70s 20 and I suppose in the '60s, as well, that they did have a 21 facility -- they were trying to treat alcoholic problems, 22 and that was a center in Jemez Springs where they would 23 treat priests who had suffered from alcoholism. And I 24 would imagine, then, that if the Villa was opened by that 25 time -- I have no idea when it was started. But if it was Page 168 1 opened, it would have served as a halfway house between 2 the treatment center and the return to their own diocese. 3 Q. And to your knowledge, did it also serve as a 4 halfway house between Servants of the Paraclete's 5 treatment program for those who had been accused of sexual 6 misconduct and a return to society? 7 A. I would imagine it served as a halfway house for 8 any program that they had at Jemez Springs. I think that 9 was its purpose. I'm not certain how extensive their work 10 was with sexual misconduct cases in the '60s or early 11 '70s. As I say, I'm simply not aware of their programs. 12 They existed quite independent of myself, and my 13 relationship was more of a cordial one to their superior. 14 Q. By the time you became Archbishop, or within a 15 short period thereafter, you knew, did you not, that 16 Paraclete was providing rehabilitative services to priests 17 who had been accused of sexual offenses? 18 A. I would say that I was aware that that was part 19 of their program. But I can honestly say, my recollection 20 is that their services seemed to me to be principally 21 directed toward alcoholism and towards a geriatric program 22 for priests who seemed to have a dependency and had no 23 other place to stay in this country, and they would come, 24 and many stayed there, and many have died there. 25 Q. But part of what you knew was that they provided Page 169 1 services for sexual offenders? 2 A. Yes, I said that, yes. 3 Q. Now, during the time that you were Archbishop, 4 did you on occasion receive requests from Servants of the 5 Paraclete to have people in their treatment programs serve 6 in supply ministry throughout the Archdiocese? 7 A. Request was made from time to time whether I 8 would be able to accommodate a priest for a period of 9 three weeks or three months, whatever period, and I 10 believe the majority of the time -- and I'm trying to 11 remember any individual. My reply was that we simply did 12 not have the facilities to be able to accommodate priests 13 who were in a halfway situation. I felt that that was a 14 responsibility that I could not accept. But requests were 15 made. 16 Q. I just want to make sure that I understand you, 17 and it's clear to those who may someday see this tape. 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. Are you saying that you don't recall any 20 situation during your tenure as Archbishop where Paraclete 21 asked you if one of their guests could serve in a supply 22 ministry, and you gave permission for that? 23 A. No, sir, I'm saying that I do recall the 24 requests being made. I'm trying to recall whether 25 permission was given to any individual. I believe that Page 170 1 the majority of the time, I replied apologetically that we 2 were unable to accommodate the request. 3 Q. If the Archdiocese had a situation where a 4 priest was in an outpost like you were in early in your 5 priesthood, Mosquero, and that priest would need to take a 6 vacation or attend to personal business, were residents of 7 Servants of the Paraclete ever used under your tenure as 8 Archbishop to fill in for the priest? 9 A. Not that I can recall. 10 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge of whether such 11 events occurred under the tenure of former Archbishop 12 Davis? 13 A. One event comes to mind. I learned about it 14 through the newspapers. I was unaware of the priest. I 15 had never heard his name before. I believe the name was 16 Father Porter. And a newspaper reported that he had 17 spent, I guess, one or two weekends at Truth or 18 Consequences as a supply priest. And that's the only case 19 that I can recall reading about. 20 Q. What was your understanding, while Archbishop, 21 of the Pecos monastery? 22 A. The monastery in Pecos is a -- it's an abbey -- 23 you might want to use that term -- operated by the 24 Benedictine Fathers. It was originally operated by them 25 as a retreat center for general retreats, and then later Page 171 1 became more specified in the type of retreats they 2 offered. They began to be associated with the Catholic 3 Charismatic Renewal Movement. I'm not going to take time 4 to describe that, because we'll be here the rest of the 5 day. But they became known throughout the nation as a 6 center of retreats with that special aspect and 7 spirituality of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. It is 8 totally independent of the Archdiocese, and they operate 9 their own retreat house according to their own guidelines. 10 They make no reports to me about the retreats they hold or 11 the number of people who are there. I'm always welcome or 12 was always welcome to visit them from time to time. 13 [Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.] 14 Q. Archbishop, I am attaching as Exhibit 3 to the 15 deposition a letter dated October 4, 1978, from Joseph 16 McNamera, Servant General of Servants of the Paraclete, to 17 you. I wonder if you'd take a look at this and see if you 18 recall having seen it before. 19 A. Yes, sir, I have seen that, yes. 20 Q. And does that suggest to you, Archbishop, that 21 at least on that occasion Servants of the Paraclete did 22 ask you if one of their priests, in particular, Father 23 Jason Sigler, could be used by the Archdiocese of Santa Fe 24 to do supply ministry? 25 A. Yes. Page 172 1 MR. KONRAD: I object to the form of the 2 question as it mischaracterizes Jason Sigler as a priest 3 of Servants of the Paraclete when he was a priest of the 4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 5 [The witness conferred with his attorney.] 6 A. I'd like to clarify that, if I could. Jason 7 Sigler had served in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. He was 8 not an incardinated priest of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 9 But his position had been working with the Archdiocese; 10 and therefore, he was known to us. He was not a total 11 stranger, as might another person be, that the Servants of 12 the Paraclete might ask us to accommodate. So in that 13 sense, he had been with us; although, technically 14 speaking, he was not incardinated. 15 Q. Was he a resident of Servants of the Paraclete 16 at the time this request for him to serve in supply 17 ministry was made? 18 A. Yes. The letter so indicates. 19 Q. And in fact, had he not been directed to go to 20 Servants of the Paraclete by you prior to October of '78? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And, in fact, hadn't he been directed to go to 23 Servants of the Paraclete by you because of accusations 24 made regarding sexual misconduct in Las Vegas, New Mexico, 25 at Immaculate Conception Church? Page 173 1 A. No, sir, I would have to clarify that. In 1978, 2 to the best of my recollection, the allegations that were 3 made against Father Jason Sigler were allegations about 4 his temper, his abusive manner, the language that he was 5 using both from the pulpit, as well as in personal 6 relationships, all of which were very insulting and 7 offensive to the people. 8 That type of temperament had been brought to my 9 attention more than once, and this seriously concerned me. 10 My decision to send him to the Servants of the Paraclete 11 for some therapy was based on the anger which he seemed to 12 display which was totally opposed to the character that a 13 priest must present to people when ministering to them. 14 Q. When this tape is seen and considered by a jury, 15 they are going to, I believe, be confronted with certain 16 factual issues which they have to resolve. 17 A. Yes. Page 175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A. Mr. Pasternack, in another deposition prior to 19 this one, you questioned me about Jason Sigler. I told 20 you that to the best of my recollection, he was sent to 21 Jemez Springs for the purposes of corrective -- for his 22 character of anger, and I have repeated that here at this 23 time. I would disagree, then, as to the reason why he was 24 sent. 25 Q. And I just -- I simply want to make sure of Page 176 1 that. Are you saying that you do not recall or that you 2 absolutely deny having confronted him prior to October 4, 3 '78? 4 A. As I remember, any denial is based on one's 5 recollection. I mean, that's where truth comes from. And 6 my recollection tells me that -- and I swear to God -- 7 that all of the allegations -- not allegations but 8 accusations that people are making to me were that they 9 were being offended by his language, that he was insulting 10 to them, and they felt that he needed help because of 11 this, and how could he serve as a priest when he was 12 turning people off this way. 13 Q. What people made those accusations to you? 14 A. I don't recall names of the people, sir. 15 Complaints about priests or what they say from the pulpit 16 come in from time to time, and I don't make a log of those 17 complaints. They were made oftentimes by the pastor, and 18 would say that, "This man seems to need help because of 19 his own anger and his temperament which was offensive." Page 202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. When did you first make the acquaintance of 11 Father , if you recall? 12 A. I think I may have met him even in the 1960s. I 13 think I may have -- there are priest gatherings. He 14 wasn't a friend and never was close as a friend. But I 15 would have known him as early as the '60s. 16 Q. Did you know him at all in Rome? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did you ever know whether or not he came to New 19 Mexico originally via Servants of the Paraclete? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you recall him serving at ? 22 A. Yes, I can recall that he was, I believe, an 23 associate pastor, assistant to whoever the pastor was 24 there at the time. 25 Q. That was before your installation as Archbishop. Page 203 1 Do you recall him serving at when you 2 were Archbishop? 3 A. Yes, I recall he was the associate there, as 4 well. 5 Q. Were any complaints ever brought to you about 6 sexual misconduct by Father while he was at 7 ? 8 A. None. 9 Q. Our understanding is he then went to 10 ; do you recall that? 11 A. I recall he served at , right. 12 Q. Do you recall any complaints about sexual 13 misconduct on his part at ? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Do you recall, up until, let's say, August of 16 1991, when lawsuits started to be filed, do you recall any 17 complaints against ? 18 A. Not of a sexual nature. 19 20 21 22 Page 209 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Briefly yesterday we discussed Father Arthur 18 Anstiss? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did he ever come to you and report any 21 complaints about sexual misconduct by priests? 22 A. No, sir, none that I can remember at all. 23 Q. Yesterday you talked a little bit about Father 24 Ed Donnollan and Hacienda de los Muchachos; and, as I 25 recall, you indicated part of your concern in shutting Page 210 1 down that facility were allegations about possible sexual 2 misconduct; is that a fair summary? 3 A. No, I think I mentioned yesterday that the 4 shutting down of the facility was due to very poor 5 administrative directives that he had and practices with 6 the youngsters. There had been complaints about his 7 methods of trying to rehabilitate these children; and 8 ultimately in dealing with the Health and Social Services, 9 they felt that his methods were poor, and that they 10 recommended that it would be shut down. And so I did it. 11 Q. Did you yesterday refer to general allegations 12 of a sexual nature with regard to Ed Donnollan? 13 A. I don't believe I did. Maybe I did. It's 14 possible. 15 Q. At Page 70 of yesterday's transcript, I asked 16 you, "Do you remember generally allegations having been 17 made about sexual contact between Father Ed and the boys?" 18 And your answer -- and I'll show this to you -- is, "There 19 may have been general allegations made. I would have to 20 say that, yes." If you'll -- 21 A. Yes. Okay, thank you. 22 Q. And now that you've had an opportunity to 23 refresh your recollection -- 24 A. Right. 25 Q. -- what, if anything, do you recall about these Page 211 1 general allegations? 2 A. As I recall, the allegations -- or concerns 3 rather than allegations. They were concerns that were 4 being expressed by either -- if I recall, either staff 5 members or people who, I gather, must have lived in the 6 vicinity or somehow were related to the Ranch. They 7 expressed concern that his methods of dealing with the 8 children at times were severe. I'm trying to remember 9 some details. He seemed to have a sense of punishment of 10 these -- these were juveniles, as I understand it, who 11 were provided by the State of New Mexico for -- I don't 12 know what you'd call it -- guidance or keeping. Rather 13 than in a juvenile detention center, they would be able to 14 kept in a home. And so the Ranch provided that type of a 15 setting. 16 But his method of dealing with those boys apparently 17 was different than people would have felt it should have 18 been. I think they had to earn good-time for themselves. 19 He made certain that they were either excluded from 20 certain activities or included. They had to prove 21 themselves. 22 But in general, the people did express concern about 23 Father's relationship to the boys. But I don't recall any 24 specific allegation, Mr. Pasternack. 25 Q. Well, yesterday when you were asked if there Page 212 1 were allegations of sexual contact between Father Ed and 2 the boys, you said, "There may have been general 3 allegations made. I would have to say, yes." And I'd 4 like to focus in on these sexual contact allegations. 5 A. Fine, okay. 6 Q. What did you hear about sexual contact between 7 Father Ed and the boys? 8 A. The sexual contact that would have been in my 9 mind with that would have been any physical contact 10 between Father and the boys at the Ranch either in the 11 form of discipline, in the form of recreation, being 12 close -- I just don't recall if anyone mentioned anything 13 specifically. But they seemed to give indication that 14 there was inappropriate relationship, inappropriate 15 behavior between Father and the boys, but I don't know 16 what that behavior might have been. 17 Q. Well -- and please understand, I'm not asking 18 about discipline. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I'm asking, what were the allegations of sexual 21 contact that led you to answer the way you did yesterday? 22 A. I answered in response to your question about 23 general allegations, and that's what I'm trying to recall. 24 I don't recall anything specific. 25 But the general allegations, the type of concern that Page 213 1 was expressed by the people, may have included -- probably 2 did include, in their mind -- a concern for the proper 3 relationship between Father Ed and those boys. 4 Q. Whatever the concerns expressed to you were, did 5 it cause you to have concern that Father Ed was having 6 sexual contact with the boys? 7 A. It raised a concern in my mind. You know, the 8 people who had contacted me -- I'm just trying to remember -- 9 seemed to be very good people who must have lived in the 10 areA. I think they had respect for Father Ed and were 11 concerned about the whole operation of the Ranch and 12 whether it should even continue. I don't recall them 13 zeroing in on any specific allegation of sexual 14 misconduct, but their general concern was his relationship 15 to those boys. 16 Q. You have indicated that you had a concern about 17 sexual contact. Did you discuss your concern with Father 18 Ed? 19 A. I know I met with Father Ed -- could I just 20 reflect a second? 21 Q. Certainly. 22 A. And try to remember. I know I met with Father 23 Ed more than once regarding the whole situation of the 24 Ranch, and I asked him specific questions regarding the 25 conduct of the Ranch and his relationship to the boys, how Page 214 1 he governed them, concerns about discipline. There was 2 also in the concerns of the people one issue that they 3 brought to my attention. It was apparently a room set 4 apart for TV, some type of recreation for themselves, and 5 they were concerned about what all was occurring within 6 that one room. And I know I asked him specifically about 7 any type of recreation center that he had for the boys and 8 what took place in that room. 9 I can't recall any type of reply on his part that 10 would have indicated that something wrong or anything was 11 taking place there. This goes back 20 years. I don't 12 know. The best of my recollection, he gave me the 13 impression that his relationship to the boys was proper, 14 that it was severe at times and perhaps would be 15 criticized by others because they didn't understand his 16 procedures. 17 Q. Did you ask Father Ed specifically about whether 18 he had engaged in any sexual contact with the boys? 19 A. I don't recall asking him specifically, Mr. 20 Pasternack. I do recall asking him about the recreation 21 room, because that seemed to have been the center of the 22 concern of people, and I asked him for an explanation of 23 that recreation center. 24 Q. Did you ask him if he was having sexual contact 25 with the boys in the recreation room? Page 215 1 A. I don't recall asking him that question. 2 Q. Is it your testimony, then, sir, that although 3 you had some concerns about whether there may have been 4 sexual contact, you didn't ask him directly, as far as you 5 recall, about whether there was; is that right? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Did you or any of your representatives ever talk 8 to the boys at Father Ed's boys' ranch, Hacienda de los 9 Muchachos, and ask them if Father Ed had engaged them in 10 sexual contact? 11 A. I did not speak to any of the boys personally. 12 I did ask a priest to visit the Hacienda for me and speak 13 to the people who were there to give me an idea of how it 14 was being operated and so forth. I did not receive any 15 allegations from that priest in reference to his visit. 16 The Health and Social Services apparently would visit the 17 home, or the Ranch, regularly for their own reports, since 18 they had an outreach in that area of the state. It was 19 their responsibility, since it was a State operation, to 20 be able to inquire from the boys, inquire from the staff, 21 as well as from the director, as to the appropriateness of 22 the facility and its operation. If anything was to be 23 revealed, it would have been revealed to those officials, 24 because that was their principal responsibility. 25 I think the reason why people were writing to me was Page 216 1 because the director of that home, or that Ranch, was a 2 priest, and they wanted to bring that to my attention. It 3 seems to me that the ones they could well have spoken to 4 regarding anything else would have been the 5 representatives from Health and Social Services whenever 6 they came to them. 7 Q. Do you recall the name of the priest that you 8 sent to investigate the Ranch? 9 A. Yes. It was the dean of the northeastern 10 deanery of our priests at that time, Father Sabine Griego. 11 Q. At the time you sent Father Sabine to 12 investigate Father Ed's boys' ranch, were you aware of 13 whether Father Sabine was having sex with any boys? 14 A. No, sir, I was not. 15 Q. Okay. You said that the investigator, Father 16 Sabine, talked to the people. Do you know whether he 17 talked to the boys? 18 A. I do not know that for a fact. I had asked him 19 to visit the home and provide me with whatever information 20 he would have, but I don't recall exactly what his report 21 contained to me or whether he had visited with the boys 22 themselves. That, I don't know. 23 Q. After you closed down the Ranch, did you assign 24 Father Ed to a parish assignment or put him on retirement, 25 or what? Page 217 1 A. After the Ranch was eventually closed -- and it 2 took a while. The boys were removed quickly, but the 3 Ranch had to be -- it was apparently property that was 4 owned by some group, and they had to dispose of the 5 animals, as well as the other facilities. That took a few 6 months. 7 To the best of my recollection, Father was then 8 assigned to a parish in northeastern New Mexico, as pastor 9 of the combined parish of Roy and Mosquero. In fact, I 10 had been pastor there myself. 11 Q. I understand that he now lives at Holy Ghost in 12 the rectory? 13 A. Yes, he does. 14 Q. Did you play any part in making the facilities 15 of Holy Ghost available to him in his retirement? 16 A. When I left he was not retired. He was assigned 17 as a chaplain to the hospital of Lovelace Hospital, 18 because Holy Ghost is close to it. And he was to visit 19 the hospital there and be on call for any emergencies. 20 However, almost a year prior to -- it must have been 21 around 1992, he was suffering his own physical illnesses 22 and was -- and had operations, I believe, on his legs or 23 so, which incapacitated him from continuing as chaplain, 24 although he was looking forward to recovery, so that he 25 might continue it. But apparently, he was unable to Page 218 1 continue. I was unaware that he is retired there. 2 Q. While you were Archbishop, you knew that he was 3 living on the premises at Holy Ghost, didn't you? 4 A. Oh, yes, I asked him to live at Holy Ghost 5 parish in order to be close to Lovelace Clinic, because it 6 gives him access to the clinic for emergencies just within 7 five minutes. He can report there. 8 Q. Holy Ghost also has a parochial school, doesn't 9 it? 10 A. Holy Ghost has a parochial school. 11 Q. And there are boys who attend that parochial 12 school, aren't there? 13 A. Boys and girls, yes. 14 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did it 15 cause you any concern that this man about whom at least 16 there had been general allegations of sexual misconduct 17 with boys, and he was being asked to live on the grounds 18 on the facility that had a parochial school? 19 A. He was asked to live at the rectory. The 20 rectory is removed from the school by a full block. He 21 had no relationship to the school or to the parish. He 22 was simply living in the rectory and was able, then, to 23 drive from there to Lovelace Clinic. 24 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did 25 you ever admonish him to stay away from the boys at the Page 219 1 school? 2 A. I don't recall any specific admonition. 3 Q. The rectory where he lives is directly across 4 the street from a playground, isn't it? 5 A. It's set across the street from a playground, 6 approximately a block apart. 7 Q. During the process of closing down the Ranch or 8 at any time thereafter, did you or anyone under your 9 direction approach any of the boys and suggest counseling? 10 A. Sir, I was not operating the Ranch. The Ranch 11 was the responsibility of Health and Social Services. The 12 only relationship to the Ranch was Father Ed Donnollan. 13 I did not know the boys. I did not know where they 14 were from or what homes they belonged to within the state. 15 Q. They were -- for the most part, weren't they 16 Catholic boys from New Mexico? 17 A. Not necessarily, sir. That's an assumption on 18 your part. The boys that Health and Social Services feel 19 free to assign to any group home come from throughout the 20 state and from any background. They are not necessarily 21 Catholic boys. This was not a Catholic home. 22 Q. When you suggested or directed that Father Ed go 23 live at the rectory at Holy Ghost, did you or any of your 24 staff issue any warnings or admonitions to the 25 parishioners at Holy Ghost that this person about whom you Page 220 1 had at least at one point had concerns about sexual 2 misconduct was now joining them in their midst? 3 A. No, I did not, sir. And I'd like to state for 4 the record that the issue of the Ranch took place in the 5 mid '70s. His assignment to Holy Ghost parish took place 6 about 1990 or '91. That's a good, whatever, 15 years 7 apart. And in all of that time, there had been no 8 allegations brought to my attention by anyone against that 9 gentleman. 10 Q. Do you know whether Father Ed was ever a 11 resident at Servants of the Paraclete? 12 A. No, I do not know that. 13 Q. Did you ever direct Father Ed to any treatment 14 facility? 15 A. Not to a treatment facility. I asked him to see 16 a psychiatrist in town for the purpose of reviewing his 17 own attitude and his anger. He was a man that had a way 18 of intimidating people because, first of all, his size. 19 He's a very tall man, large man. And oftentimes his voice 20 would be very stern, offensive against people, and they 21 would complain to me about his anger. I asked him 22 specifically to see a psychiatrist in town about that, and 23 he did. 24 Q. Who? 25 A. Just give me a second. I believe it was Dr. Page 221 1 Paul DeBlassie. 2 Q. And did Dr. DeBlassie send reports to you about 3 Father Ed? 4 A. Not reports. I never received written reports 5 from Dr. DeBlassie, although we did speak on the phone 6 about once, perhaps twice. 7 Q. And what did he tell you? 8 A. That he was working with Father Ed, that they 9 were meeting regularly, and would do his best to help 10 correct it. 11 I do recall him mentioning that the age of Father, 12 because he was not young, he seems to be set in his ways, 13 that it would be difficult to change some habits. 14 Q. Did your discussions with Dr. DeBlassie include 15 any references to sexual activities by Father Ed? 16 A. No, it did not. 17 Q. And you don't recall getting any letters from 18 DeBlassie; is that right? 19 A. I don't recall getting any letters, no. 20 Q. Did Father Ed advise you during the latter parts 21 of your service as Archbishop, that he -- whether he was 22 sending out letters to boys that he had had sex with 23 encouraging them not to come forward? 24 A. No, sir, not at all. The only kind of letters 25 that I recall being mentioned to me were letters Page 222 1 soliciting funds from donors because apparently donors 2 were helping to maintain some of the expenses and repairs 3 on the Ranch. 4 Q. Let's talk about Father Esquivel, then, for a 5 minute. You indicated yesterday that Father Esquivel was 6 indeed "father" Esquivel. Do you recall approximately 7 when he fathered a child? 8 A. In the 1970s. Middle or late 1970s. Yes. 9 Q. And did he admit to you that he did that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you require him or ask him to sign an 12 affidavit of paternity and to pay child support? 13 A. I placed him in the -- I guess the 14 responsibility of an attorney, so that those items would 15 be properly addressed. 16 Q. Which attorney was that? 17 A. I believe, and I'm not certain, but I believe it 18 is a deceased attorney, Mr. Bingham. I think that was his 19 name. I'm not certain. I would have to -- I'm just -- I 20 know that the attorney who served us in the very first few 21 years died. But I'm trying to recall his name. But I 22 think that was the attorney that handled his case. 23 [A discussion was held off the record.] 24 Q. Do you recall the name of the woman with whom 25 Father Esquivel fathered the child? Page 223 1 A. No, I do not. 2 Q. Was Father Esquivel required to enter into any 3 treatment or therapy as a part of the resolution of this 4 situation? 5 A. Yes, he was. 6 Q. And what treatment or therapy was that? 7 A. We asked Father Esquivel to attend a program at 8 Guest House. It was a program for basically alcoholism 9 and any other related features, and he attended that 10 program. 11 Q. What is Guest House? 12 A. Guest House is a residential treatment center. 13 Q. Where? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's MinnesotA. 15 I'm not too certain which city. It may be Rochester, 16 St. Paul. It's in MinnesotA. 17 Q. Should we conclude from this that Father 18 Esquivel acknowledged an alcohol problem to you, as well? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. And did he blame his alcohol problem for his 21 sexual indiscretions? 22 A. I don't believe there was any -- I don't recall 23 him blaming his alcohol problem on the other indiscretion. 24 I don't think he linked that together. 25 Q. Was he required to perform any penance in Page 224 1 consequence of having deviated from his promise of 2 chastity? 3 A. Well, I think the penance was to leave the 4 Archdiocese, leave the ministry, and to enter into a 5 program of rehabilitation. And they do have the spiritual 6 counseling that goes along with the therapy, as well. 7 Q. Do you recall about how long he was gone? 8 A. It was their full program, which must have been 9 probably close to six months, three to six months. I'm 10 not certain. 11 Q. And when he returned, was he given a job in the 12 chancery? 13 A. Yes. He was not placed in a parish position. 14 Q. Why? 15 A. We felt that we would be able to monitor his 16 work, see how he was going to conduct himself, and he 17 could do effective work for us at that time in the 18 chancery, as well. 19 Q. What was his position in the chancery? 20 A. His position was to be a liaison with the 21 Hispanic Catholic population in the Archdiocese and with 22 any reference to the Hispanic population throughout the 23 country. 24 Q. Approximately when did he begin to serve in that 25 function? Page 225 1 A. I don't recall the dates, but I would imagine 2 it's late 1970s. 3 Q. And by approximately what point was he then 4 placed back into parish work? 5 A. He served in that capacity for approximately, I 6 would say, at least three years. I don't recall those 7 particulars, Mr. Pasternack. I would have to see a 8 curriculum vitae of some kind to help just -- I don't know 9 if you have anything handy to help my memory, but I would 10 certainly welcome that, so I can be as accurate as 11 possible for the testimony. 12 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the 13 tape now? 14 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:46. We will go 15 off the record. This is the end of tape 3 in the 16 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez. 17 [A recess was taken.] 18 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:50 AM. We are 19 back on the record. This is the beginning of tape number 20 4 of the deposition of Archbishop Sanchez. 21 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, when Father 22 Esquivel left his work at the chancery, do you recall what 23 his first parish assignment was? 24 A. I can't recall that. I was hoping I could, but 25 I just -- maybe you could help me out. Page 226 1 Q. I don't know. 2 A. And I don't recall, sorry. 3 Q. Were there any complaints about sexual 4 misconduct by Father Esquivel while he was working in the 5 chancery? 6 A. No. There were no complaints that came to me 7 while he was working in the chancery. 8 Q. Was there a time when complaints again did come 9 to your attention? 10 A. Yes. Complaints began to surface, if I recall 11 correctly, towards the latter part of the '80s, maybe '86, 12 '87. And the concern was, again, that it appeared he was 13 drinking, that he was resorting back to alcohol, and it 14 was becoming evident apparently to the parishioners. 15 I then confronted him again and required him to 16 return to Guest House to undergo additional rehabilitation 17 in reference to alcohol. They have a separate program for 18 that, for anyone who seems to be falling back into the 19 original weakness. And so they scheduled him for their 20 program, and he left and went through the entire program 21 with them. 22 Q. At the time you sent him back to Guest House 23 where was he serving as a parish priest? 24 A. That's what I can't recall. I think it may have 25 been in Los Lunas. But I'm not certain if he was Page 227 1 someplace else before going to Los Lunas. It may have 2 been Los Lunas at that time. 3 Q. Did the complaints that were expressed to you 4 about Father Esquivel in the late 1980s include complaints 5 about alleged sexual misconduct? 6 A. Not at that time. At that time, if I recall 7 correctly, they were concerned about him not being 8 available, being gone, appearing to be influenced with 9 alcohol when he met with people. Anger was beginning to 10 make itself present in his relationships to people, making 11 quick decisions about who should serve in what 12 organization, and oftentimes telling people that they 13 could no longer be members of this organization or that. 14 And there was just a lot of hurt, apparently, that was 15 taking place because of it. 16 Q. When did allegations of sexual misconduct by 17 Father Esquivel come to your attention? 18 A. That was raised directly around -- within the 19 last -- within the last two years. It must have been some 20 time in 1992. 1992 or 1991. I'm just -- perhaps '92. 21 Q. Let me ask you, you say it was raised directly. 22 Was there a time before that where it was raised 23 indirectly to you? 24 A. No. What I meant by "directly" was that the 25 complaint or information given me was they felt that there Page 228 1 had been some type of abuse of youngsters at the parish, 2 and that was a direct statement. I had not received any 3 indirect statement before, except regarding his personal 4 conduct because of alcohol. 5 Q. And who was it who brought to you these direct 6 complaints about alleged sexual misconduct? 7 A. It was a woman of the parish. 8 9 A. That rings a bell. That may be the name. I 10 don't know why there's another name that stays in my mind. 11 I think the name Dolores, but I might be confusing them. 12 I would not be able to testify that it was certainly that 13 name. But in any event, it was a woman who brought the 14 concern to our attention. 15 Q. By "our," you mean your? 16 A. Well, to the Archdiocese, to myself, and I would 17 share that with Father Wolf. 18 Q. And did you talk directly to this woman? 19 A. No. I had Father Wolf contact the parties. 20 Q. And what did Father -- did you ever talk to any 21 victim or family member -- excuse me, alleged victim or 22 family member of alleged victim of Father Esquivel? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. I take it you had Father Wolf investigate; is 25 that correct? Page 229 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what did he report back to you? 3 A. He reported that what the woman had, in fact, 4 alleged. 5 Q. What did he say? 6 A. He said that while Father was at the parish of 7 Los Lunas that these -- that this woman, whatever her name 8 was, said that her sons had been altar boys for him and 9 that they felt that he had been using drugs, alcohol, and 10 that they had been abused by him, and I believe 11 something -- and I'm not really sure about this, how it 12 went, but apparently one or two of the sons, I don't 13 recall, apparently are presently in a prison in California 14 somewhere, and they had informed their mother about this 15 and felt that they wanted her to know that Father had done 16 this to them when they were younger. I don't know whether 17 they were invited to drink, but they did say that he was 18 drinking, that he had been using drugs and that he had 19 molested them. 20 Q. What action, if any, did you take when Father 21 Wolf brought you this information? 22 A. I immediately confronted Father Esquivel and 23 told him that these serious allegations had been made 24 against him and that I wanted him immediately to enter 25 into a full residential treatment program for him apart Page 230 1 from Guest House. It was going to be a different program. 2 And I immediately made contact with the residential center 3 in Toronto, Canada, called Southdown, and asked him to go 4 there for that treatment. 5 Q. Did he go? 6 A. He went -- they first invited him to come up for 7 the evaluation, which he did. He went up there for the 8 full-week evaluation. They said they could not take him 9 for the full program until about two weeks later, after 10 Christmas. 11 And so he returned for Christmas and then went back 12 up again for the program. He remained in the program for 13 two to three weeks, as I recall, and then called me and 14 said that he felt that he was out of place. He wouldn't 15 mind going to another program, but did not feel at home in 16 that program. 17 My response to him was that if he didn't continue in 18 that program, he would have no further assignment in the 19 Archdiocese. He chose to return home and to live with his 20 father. I did not see him after that. 21 Q. When you confronted him with these allegations, 22 did he admit them or deny them? 23 A. I don't recall a direct admission, if he said, 24 "Yes, I'm guilty of that." I don't recall him saying 25 that. But his agreement to go to Southdown was what I was Page 231 1 looking for at the time, too. And he said, "Yes, I will 2 go, and I will enter the program and do whatever you ask 3 of me." I assume that may have been an admission of the 4 facts. 5 Q. Well, would you have sent him to Southdown to 6 the treatment program if there was doubt in your mind as 7 to the validity of the allegations? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So you believed they were true? 10 A. I believed that they were true. And the fact 11 that he did not refuse to go led me to believe that there 12 was truth to some of those allegations that were made. 13 Q. Did you or any member of your staff ever talk to 14 the boys who alleged that they had been molested by him in 15 Los Lunas? 16 A. I did not, and I presume that Father did not 17 because these boys must have been in prison, is what I 18 recall, in CaliforniA. I believe that Father must have 19 spoken directly with the parents. 20 Q. Father Wolf, you're talking about? 21 A. Father Wolf, I'm sorry, yes. 22 Q. When Father Esquivel left his Los Lunas parish 23 assignment, what, if anything, did you tell the people at 24 the Los Lunas parish about the reason for his departure? 25 A. That he was -- that he had departed from the Page 232 1 parish for treatment. 2 Q. Of -- 3 A. No specific reason was given. It is not the 4 habit of our Church to make public the weakness of any 5 individual and say that someone is going away for 6 alcoholism or going away for this or going away for that. 7 He was going away for treatment at a center and asked for 8 prayers for his success, his well-being. 9 Q. Did you feel any canonical or moral 10 responsibility to advise the parishioners at his Los Lunas 11 parish that you felt he had been a child molester? 12 A. My main concern with any allegation that is 13 brought to me that if a priest is being accused of 14 misconduct is to confront that priest and to remove him 15 from the situation immediately. And I was able to do that 16 in this case successfully and did not feel an obligation, 17 then, to explain to the people in general the reasons for 18 his departure. 19 Q. Weren't you concerned, Archbishop, that there 20 could be other victims? 21 A. There is concern. Again, as I have mentioned, 22 parishes have a way of speaking to another and of letting 23 any type of abuse be known. It wasn't as though they were 24 going to keep it secret. His departure, I am sure, caused 25 a lot of talk among the parishioners themselves, and it is Page 233 1 simply not our tradition to make obvious statements to 2 people about an individual, because of the situation 3 within the parish itself. Parishioners begin to become 4 suspicious of one another. It can become a divisive 5 issue. They begin to wonder, "Well, who caused this, and 6 what's involved?" So I have not made it a practice to 7 announce to parishioners the reason for any transfer of 8 any priest. 9 Q. Did you not feel that in your position as the 10 then leader of the Catholic Church in New Mexico, you had 11 some sort of responsibility to see if this man had hurt 12 any other children and to try to help them? 13 A. I was leaving that situation up to Father Wolf 14 to investigate the situation with more -- more discreetly, 15 so as not to cause a division within the parish, but to be 16 able to inquire from this lady and any others that wished 17 to talk whether or not they wanted to come see us. 18 I'd also like to add for the record that this 19 occurred at -- after we had already established an 800 20 number, which was publicly made known throughout the 21 media, throughout New Mexico, that anyone who had any 22 complaint or allegation against a priest could call that 23 number and make their report. So it was an open 24 invitation. 25 If I recall correctly, I had also established an Page 234 1 independent commission for the very purpose of allowing 2 people to contact them anonymously, if they so chose to 3 share their concern with that commission and bring it to 4 our attention. 5 Q. By not warning the parish about what had 6 happened and seeking out any other victims, if there were 7 any, weren't you putting the unity of the parish and the 8 reputation of the Church over the rights of those who may 9 have been sexually abused by this man? 10 MR. KONRAD: Object to the form of the 11 question. I think he testified Father Wolf was instructed 12 to investigate and find other victims. 13 A. Yes -- it's not as though nothing were done. It 14 was not a hide situation. That was followed up by Father 15 Wolf with the family and with any other contacts that she 16 would offer to them to be able to investigate if there 17 were other possible victims in the parish. 18 Q. But is it your position, sir, that it should not 19 have been announced from the pulpit that, "We have removed 20 this man from your midst because we believe he's a child 21 molester"? 22 A. That's right, sir, and I will explain briefly. 23 In our own moral theology, about which we spoke at length 24 yesterday, calumny is considered a sin. That's detraction 25 of a person, spreading false rumors about an individual. Page 235 1 But likewise, detraction from a person is also respected, 2 that gossip is oftentimes turned and twisted so that a 3 person's reputation is totally destroyed. But not only 4 the gossip against a perpetrator, but gossip against 5 people, against other children. It becomes an opportunity 6 to offend one another when that need not happen. 7 So the Church has not taken the position -- in fact, 8 has cautioned that any investigation that is done should 9 be done discreetly so as to preserve the rights of 10 individuals and their own anonymity and their own 11 preference to come forward as they choose. 12 Q. Are you saying, sir, that calumny is a bigger 13 sin than raping a child? 14 A. No, sir, I'm not saying that at all. 15 MR. PASTERNACK: Why don't we break for 16 lunch. 17 MR. GOFFE: The time is 12:06. We will go 18 off the record. 19 [The noon recess was taken.] 20 MR. GOFFE: The time is 1:16, as indicated 21 on the screen. We are back on the record. 22 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, when Father 23 Esquivel was transferred from work in the chancery to work 24 at a parish, wherever it was, were the people of that 25 parish, to the best of your knowledge, advised that he had Page 236 1 in the past fathered a child and had been treated for 2 substance abuse? 3 A. To the best of my recollection, no. 4 Q. And why would they not have been notified of 5 that? 6 A. Because I think there's something very private 7 between a child that has been fathered -- the mother 8 deserves that her name not be known publicly. The priest 9 who has been involved in that incident deserves to be 10 given -- if he deserves an appointment, he deserves to be 11 given that opportunity. I did not consider him to be a 12 threat to anyone else. I thought that he had gone through 13 a fine program of rehabilitation. I felt it was 14 professional in scope; its reputation was fine; and the 15 man, in fact, would do a credible job. He had worked with 16 us in the office credibly and not shown any sign of his 17 former illness, and so I felt that the man could be 18 assigned to a parish without any worry. It was never our 19 practice to make such announcements, as I have already 20 mentioned to you, and so nothing was made in his regard 21 either. 22 Q. Do you recall whether Father Esquivel had ever 23 been cleared for parish work by any professional, such as 24 a psychologist or psychiatrist? 25 A. The psychologist-psychiatrists at Guest House Page 237 1 had worked with him. Knowing that he would be placed back 2 at parish work was certainly an option for him, I should 3 say, in his future because most priests ordained in any 4 diocese are ordained for parochial work. 5 Q. And do you have a specific recollection of 6 actually receiving such clearance from the Guest House 7 professionals? 8 A. The clearance that the Guest House gave me was 9 that this man, they felt, had been rehabilitated in 10 reference to his alcoholism and that if he continued to 11 attend AA for support groups and to -- they asked him to 12 join their one week of intensive rehabilitation every 13 year. This is common for all of their guests who have 14 gone through the program. They felt that he would 15 continue to abstain from alcohol completely. 16 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, did he attend 17 AA meetings consistently after he left Guest House? 18 A. Yes. We monitored that when he was with us in 19 our office. He was attending AA meetings. And I also 20 asked him to attend the annual gathering sponsored by 21 Guest House. One was held in San Diego, and one was held 22 at Guest House itself. 23 Q. After he left the chancery and went into parish 24 work, did you continue to monitor whether he was attend 25 attending AA? Page 238 1 A. I would ask him from time to time. I was not 2 seeing him as frequently as I had before. I had no reason 3 to believe that he was not. 4 Q. Well, did he assure you that he was attending 5 AA? 6 A. Whenever I would ask him, he would say he was. 7 Q. And was there any sort of after-care program 8 locally beyond that that you insisted he involve himself 9 in? 10 A. No. The after-care program was provided, as I 11 say, by Guest House, and that was an annual one-week 12 gathering, and they depended upon the support of AA as 13 being an after-care program locally. 14 Q. Did you direct anyone on your staff to supervise 15 Father Esquivel after he was reassigned to parish work? 16 A. I don't recall having done that. 17 Q. Do you know where Father Esquivel came from 18 originally? 19 A. Father Esquivel is a native of New Mexico. 20 Q. And did he -- where did he attend seminary, if 21 you know? 22 A. I know he attended some years as a college 23 student at the Immaculate Heart of Mary seminary in 24 Santa Fe and then went for six years for his theology, but 25 I don't recall offhand where that was taken. Page 239 1 Q. Was he incardinated and ordained to the Santa Fe 2 Archidocese? 3 A. Yes, he was. 4 Q. Has anyone ever told you or have you ever heard 5 that Father Esquivel also had problems with cocaine and 6 marijuana? 7 A. I did not hear of that until recent allegations 8 came, as I have mentioned earlier this morning, that he 9 had had -- at least the allegations were that he was 10 using -- I think they used marijuana, I think is what they 11 had stated. I don't recall them mentioning cocaine. 12 Q. Had any allegations or information ever been 13 presented to you that he was using parish children in the 14 production of pornography? 15 A. No, not at all. 16 Q. Did Father Esquivel ever tell you that he was 17 affiliated with the Mafia? 18 A. Oh, no. 19 Q. Did you ever hear any information about thefts, 20 embezzlement, by Father Esquivel from the parish in Los 21 Lunas? 22 A. No. 23 Q. There was a man who came here, Archbishop, after 24 leaving the priesthood named Lane Fontenot. Did you ever -- 25 A. Again, please? Page 240 1 Q. Lane Fontenot. Did you ever learn anything 2 about Lane Fontenot? 3 A. I've never heard that name until right now. 4 Q. When we were talking yesterday, I asked you 5 about Dennis Fountain, and you indicated a recollection 6 that there were some allegations that you recalled. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall whether he was indicted or 9 criminally charged? 10 A. I believe that the District Attorney in Santa Fe 11 did -- I don't recall whether it was an indictment or a 12 criminal charge. I believe there was a criminal charge 13 against him. I don't recall the technicalities, but I 14 know that the District Attorney was the one who accepted 15 the case from the beginning, so he would have done 16 whatever the law requires him to do. I don't know how far 17 that went. But the case was then investigated, and I 18 don't believe that a formal trial was ever concluded in 19 that case, if my memory serves me right. 20 Q. He was a Franciscan, wasn't he? 21 A. He was a Franciscan priest, right. 22 Q. Does that mean that he was not directly under 23 your authority while you were Archbishop? 24 A. That is right. As a Franciscan, his own life 25 and his personal living -- all he has to answer for that Page 241 1 to his religious superior. If he were appointed by me as 2 a priest in the archidocese, then he would be answerable 3 to me for his ministry. 4 Q. Does that mean that when he was charged, in 5 whatever fashion it was, with a crime, you did not have 6 any authority to remove him? 7 A. No. He had been assigned to the position by his 8 own superior, and I believe the superior removed him 9 immediately. 10 Q. Do you know if he was reassigned to parish work 11 after the criminal case? 12 A. After the criminal case was dropped, I know that 13 he was kept by his religious community without any type of 14 parochial assignment. I don't recall how long that was. 15 I believe it may have been for two or three years. I'm 16 just hazy in my recollection of even when that occurred. 17 But then ultimately they requested an assignment. I 18 believe they were trying to get an assignment for him in 19 the Gallup diocese. 20 Q. Were you ever asked to make any recommendations 21 or express an opinion on his service? 22 A. Not so much a recommendation because I really 23 did not know the man. He had served as a chaplain, and I 24 did not know him personally. So I could not give a 25 recommendation. Page 242 1 Q. What did you give, if anything? 2 A. Just -- if they asked for my own comments, "What 3 do you think about Father," my comments would have been, 4 "Well, it seems to me that he was a dedicated priest. I 5 can't recommend him personally because I don't know him 6 personally. But he seemed to have served very well in his 7 previous assignments with the Franciscans, and since no 8 judgment had been rendered against him, I certainly could 9 not speak negatively about him." 10 Q. Yesterday I asked you about Anthony Gallegos, 11 and you stated that he had left the archidocese and went 12 to California shortly after he was ordained? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you ever recall him serving as a parish 15 priest in Socorro, indeed in the parish that you grew up 16 in as a child? 17 A. No, I don't remember that. Socorro has always 18 had priests there since 1620. And in recent years, since 19 I have been ordained, many have been changed, transferred 20 to other parishes, and other priests there. So I don't 21 remember who all have served there, actually. 22 Q. All right. You had no personal acquaintance 23 with him, I take it? 24 A. No. No, I did not. 25 Q. Do you know the circumstances of his death? Page 243 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what were the circumstances of his death? 3 A. I was told that he died of AIDS. 4 Q. His death was noted in the 1992 Catholic 5 directory for this archidocese, and I'd like to explore 6 what his status was with this archidocese. 7 A. He had no status with us at all. That was noted 8 simply for informational purposes, because we do get calls 9 about priests who have served here, others who have died, 10 and unless they are noted in there, you continue to have 11 to respond. He -- once he had left and had been gone with 12 no contact to us since whatever year it was, '69 or '70, 13 he was no longer a priest of the archidocese. He was no 14 longer actually a priest in good standing anywhere. 15 Q. Was he ever excardinated by the Santa Fe 16 Archidocese? 17 A. It was not a formal excardination. He quit the 18 priesthood, and that itself is an excardination. In other 19 words, he ceases to be a priest. 20 Q. Do you know if he signified his decision to quit 21 by any writing of any type? 22 A. Not that I know of, no writing. 23 Q. Did you ever formally suspend, revoke or 24 terminate his priestly faculties? 25 A. We withdrew his name totally from the Catholic Page 244 1 directory, thus indicating that he was no longer a priest 2 of the archidocese. 3 Q. Do you recall approximately when you did that? 4 A. I think we waited for -- well, I don't know. 5 When I came into my own position as the Archbishop, I 6 think his name was still listed, and that had been 14 7 years. And I instructed the chancellor that whenever he 8 prepared the Catholic directory that his name should be 9 deleted from our list, because we'd had no contact with 10 him. 11 Q. Do you know why he left the Santa Fe 12 Archidocese? 13 A. I have no ideA. That occurred when Archbishop 14 Davis was still here. I had never known the man, and I 15 had no occasion to inquire about him. 16 Q. Is Father Galli a person that you consider a 17 friend, as well as a brother priest? 18 A. I consider him a very good priest, a man that I 19 have trusted and could depend on during the years of my 20 own service as the Archbishop. I had not known him prior 21 to being named the Archbishop. I had met his brother. He 22 had another brother who was also a priest in this 23 archidocese. He has since died. I had met his older 24 brother, or his brother Robert. Father Clarence I had not 25 met until I was ordained as the Archbishop, and then I got Page 245 1 to know him simply as the Archbishop. 2 He served very faithfully on several committees for 3 me, and I felt he was an excellent pastor. But we never 4 became friends. We never spent any time other than 5 meetings together, business. 6 7 8 9 Q. Are you familiar with a deacon of the 10 archidocese named ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is the nature of your acquaintance with Mr. 13 ? 14 A. I know him as a permanent deacon for the 15 Archidocese of Santa Fe. He was one of many who were 16 ordained as permanent deacons. These are men who are 17 married, most of them are married, and they go through a 18 program of preparation for the deaconate, are ordained, 19 and then they serve in whatever capacity we invite them to 20 serve. Normally they assist part-time, perhaps on 21 weekends, or they assist their pastor. They continue to 22 work at their own jobs providing for their families, but 23 they are able to render some assistance in their parish 24 church. In the instance of , I understand 25 that he was a schoolteacher. Page 246 1 Q. Do you know whether was ever 2 charged with or convicted of any sex crimes? 3 A. I learned that was charged with a 4 sexual molestation, I guess is the word, of a school child 5 where he was employed, at the school that he was employed. 6 I believe, but I am not certain, that his employment was 7 in . 8 Q. Were you still Archbishop when you learned of 9 this alleged molestation of the child? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you take any action to revoke or suspend 12 Deacon faculties with the Church? 13 A. Yes, I did. The faculties were suspended 14 immediately, and they have not been given back to him. 15 Q. Did you take any action to alert the 16 parishioners at the parish for which he served as deacon 17 of what he had done? 18 A. It was public knowledge. It had appeared in the 19 newspaper and on the news. So no public announcement was 20 made. 21 22 23 24 25 Page 247 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. Excuse me just a second. Okay, I'd like to ask 7 you some questions about Father Sabine Griego. 8 A. All right. 9 Q. Yesterday I had asked you, Page 71, line 24, I 10 said, "And Sabine Griego, you knew about those allegations 11 long before the lawsuits started being filed, didn't you?" 12 And your answer was, "No, not before this took place, 13 no." 14 Would it be correct to say that before August of '91, 15 you had not heard any allegations of sexual impropriety by 16 Father Griego? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Was Father Griego raised in New Mexico, to the 19 best of your knowledge? 20 A. I understand that he was raised in northern New 21 Mexico. 22 Q. And was he incardinated and ordained a priest of 23 the Santa Fe Archidocese? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is he your contemporary or a bit younger? Page 248 1 A. A bit younger. 2 Q. What was the nature of your first acquaintance 3 with him, if you recall? 4 A. I would regard our really first acquaintance 5 occurring when he was assigned to a position in Las Vegas, 6 New Mexico, and I was assigned in Roy and Mosquero, which 7 is in the northeast. He was a pastor, I believe, or lived 8 in a parish, one of the two parishes in Las Vegas, at that 9 time; and since that was one of the closest areas that I 10 could visit, from time to time I would visit either 11 Monsignor Salas in the Immaculate Conception parish or 12 Father Griego and Father Burke in the other parish. And I 13 believe that's where my acquaintance with him began. 14 Q. Now, you have indicated that you did not start 15 hearing any allegations about sexual impropriety against 16 him until after August of '91. Do you recall who first 17 brought to your attention such allegations? 18 A. It was a family, the Price family. I believe 19 the first name is Jess, Jess Price. He and his wife and 20 their daughter, I believe, asked to see us, and so I 21 arranged a meeting with them. I believe present at that 22 meeting, if I recall correctly, was my chancellor, Father 23 Richard Olona, and also the archdiocesan attorney, Mr. 24 Chuck Reynolds. That took place at the chancery office. 25 Q. Do you recall approximately when that would have Page 249 1 been? 2 A. I feel that it took place in August or September 3 of 1991. If you give me a moment to just calculate, I can 4 make certain it's that date. 5 Yes, it would have been more than likely September of 6 1991. 7 Q. And what makes you believe that? 8 A. It makes -- I believe it because, number one, I 9 asked Father Griego, as a result of that meeting with them 10 in which an allegation was stated to me, I asked Father 11 Griego, then, to resign his parish -- the allegation was 12 against him -- and to then go to Southdown -- excuse me -- 13 in Toronto for their full program, which he did. And the 14 program terminated in the -- for him in like March or 15 April of 1992. That is why I can trace it back to 1991. 16 The date of September is in my mind because they 17 indicated that their daughter was attending the University 18 at that time. 19 Q. Prior to the actual meeting with the Prices, had 20 they called you or written to you, as best you recall, to 21 complain about Father Griego? 22 A. I believe they made contact verbally with my 23 chancellor, then Father Olona, who informed me of this, I 24 believe that was the method of communication, and asked if 25 they could meet with us, and he set up the meeting. Page 250 1 Q. So you recall no written allegations? 2 A. No, no. It was just a request by them to meet 3 with us. 4 [Exhibit 7 was marked for identification.] 5 Q. Exhibit 7 is a letter given to us by Mrs. Price 6 dated August 8, 1991, pertaining to Sabine Griego and 7 Arthur Perrault. I'd like to ask you to look at that and 8 tell me if this refreshes your recollection or if you've 9 ever seen this letter before. 10 The question was if you recall having received and 11 read this letter. 12 A. No, I do not recall receiving that letter. It's 13 very clear. The letter is very strongly written, but I 14 don't recall receiving that, and I can't explain why. 15 Q. One of my concerns about this is that in 16 addition to expressing complaints of sexual molestation of 17 some of their 14 children by Sabine Griego, Mrs. Price 18 also expresses concern about similar molestation by Arthur 19 Perrault, as I've seen. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. This letter was not in the personnel file of 22 Arthur Perrault that was produced to us. Do you have any 23 reason why that would not have occurred? 24 A. I have no reason why, nor do I recall having 25 received that letter. Page 251 1 Q. Is the Price family a rather prominent family in 2 the Catholic community? 3 A. Not that I know of. Maybe in their own parish, 4 it's possible. But I had not met them prior to the time 5 that they came to the office. 6 Q. Was Mr. Price on the independent commission you 7 appointed? 8 A. No. No, he was not. 9 Q. The letter says, on the second page, "We 10 understand that this letter is not the first time that the 11 Archidocese has been informed of these men's deviant, 12 shameful and life-damaging activities. We've been told 13 that, at least in Perrault's case, information has been 14 presented to civic officials, which was then passed on to 15 the Archidocese for action. Nothing happened." 16 Is that true, that there had been prior -- or reports 17 prior to 1991 on Arthur Perrault? 18 A. I never received anything from any civic 19 officials to which she refers. If, in fact, they had 20 been, they certainly were free to contact us. 21 Q. At the meeting that you had with the Price 22 family that I believe you indicated was the month after 23 the date of this letter, did they tell you which of their 24 children had been molested by Perrault and Griego? 25 A. The best I recall the meeting, the focus of the Page 252 1 meeting was upon their daughter, who was present for the 2 meeting. The indication was that she had been molested by 3 Father Sabine Griego, and they were asking of us, the 4 archidocese, two things: One was financial assistance for 5 their daughter to be able to have thorough counseling. 6 They indicated she was attending the University at the 7 time. We agreed to care for any counseling that she would 8 choose and from whatever therapist that she would care to 9 go to. 10 And the second request was that Father Sabine Griego 11 would be given the proper treatment, therapeutic 12 treatment, they felt necessary for his own life, and we 13 promised that. And I immediately confronted Father and 14 asked for his resignation from the parish and then 15 prepared for him to enter into treatment at Southdown. 16 Q. Okay. This letter says the son who Perrault and 17 Griego criminally abused was seriously affected in several 18 very negative ways, and it describes them. Is it your 19 testimony, sir, that at the meeting you do not recall them 20 discussing abuse of a son but rather a daughter? 21 A. The daughter was the focus of the meeting 22 because that was what they were asking us to take action 23 for. 24 Q. Was the son discussed at all? 25 A. If his name was mentioned, it was not mentioned Page 253 1 as their main focus, because it's not in my mind at all, 2 nor did they ask any action on behalf of their son. 3 Q. I understand that his name may not have been 4 mentioned, but did they discuss at all that one of their 5 sons had been molested by Perrault and Griego? 6 A. I don't recall that discussion taking place. 7 Q. Would it be typical that your chancellor would 8 take notes at meetings like this? 9 A. If I recall correctly, I believe the attorney 10 was taking notes for the occasion, for the meeting that 11 was occurring. Whether Father Olona took notes, I am not 12 certain. I would have to ask him. 13 Q. When you removed Sabine -- and I take it you 14 removed him from his parish assignment at Queen of Heaven? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you undertake any action to find out what 17 other victims he may have had at Queen of Heaven or 18 elsewhere? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. In fact, did you even ask him? 21 A. No. I confronted him with the issue at hand, 22 and he admitted his guilt and was grateful for the 23 opportunity to go into therapy. But I did not talk about 24 other possible victims. 25 Q. If you know, what explanation was given to the Page 254 1 people of Queen of Heaven for his departure? 2 A. I don't recall if there was an explanation given 3 at all, Mr. Pasternack. I think that Father announced his 4 own termination, that he had chosen to resign, and thanked 5 them for his, I believe, 10 years of service there and 6 their cooperation. But I don't recall any explanation 7 being given. 8 Q. Since Father Griego had admitted to you abusing 9 a child or children, would it have still been calumny to 10 inform the parish that he was a confessed child molester? 11 A. The incident referred to by this family, the 12 Price family, went back many years. It was not something -- 13 a recent occurrence. To mention this publicly to the 14 parish, again, would be in a sense calumnizing the parish, 15 involving them, wondering whether this person or that 16 person or the other person, and gossip to spread. And I 17 think that harm is done to one another rather than good. 18 The man had not -- nothing had come forth from the 19 parish at all regarding this priest for 10 years of 20 service. I had no reason to believe that he had in any 21 way victimized anybody during those 10 years in that 22 parish, and this allegation that these folks brought to my 23 attention went back to a situation that was many years 24 prior. 25 Q. Approximately how many years prior to August of Page 255 1 '91; do you recall? 2 A. What I gathered from the conversation with them, 3 they were talking about the Search program in the 4 archidocese, which had taken place in the archidocese, oh, 5 back in the '70s, late '70s. And I thought that that is 6 what they were speaking about, as far as the abuse 7 occurring. 8 Q. Did it occur to you that someone who abuses one 9 child may abuse others? 10 A. That's always a possibility. But once again, I 11 would simply reiterate that no statement, no allegation 12 had come to me from anyone in that parish in those 10 13 years. The people living in Albuquerque are 14 sophisticated. They certainly would not hesitate to call 15 or to write if they felt something had occurred which was 16 improper. 17 Q. And did you feel that, as Archbishop, you had 18 neither the canonical nor the moral duty to the Catholic 19 faithful to inquire of Father Griego whether anything else 20 had happened? 21 A. This incident had occurred. My focus was to 22 remove this priest, put him into the therapy, therapy for 23 his own sake, and also for the peace of mind of the Price 24 family, who had been offended, and I felt that I was 25 filling the requests that they had placed before me. Page 256 1 Q. My question was, did you feel a moral or 2 canonical responsibility on behalf of the Catholic people 3 to ask Father Griego whether he had done this to anyone 4 else? 5 A. It simply did not occur to me. 6 Q. Did it occur to you that perhaps Father Griego, 7 like you, did not want to discuss his sexual activities 8 because of his feelings of shame and guilt and hypocrisy? 9 A. I was not judging him -- what his feelings may 10 or may not have been. My concern was to place him in the 11 hands of professionals where whatever had occurred in his 12 life could be addressed and addressed properly. 13 Q. What I'm asking, Archbishop, is, you knew -- you 14 knew well that a priest who sexually offends tends to hide 15 that. And with that knowledge, why did you not seek to 16 draw out of him information that could help the people? 17 A. I suppose, Mr. Pasternack, it's because I don't 18 have a suspicious nature. I am not one who is an 19 investigator of that nature. I'm not an investigator by 20 nature. I know that is part and parcel of your office and 21 of many other people, but I don't do that simply by 22 nature. 23 Q. You had known Sabine Griego when he was at Our 24 Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas? 25 A. Yes. Page 257 1 Q. Had you ever visited him there? 2 A. I visited there normally to have lunch with 3 whoever was there, as I was passing through, driving from 4 Mosquero to Albuquerque. 5 Q. Well, wasn't he still at Our Lady of Sorrows by 6 the time you became Archbishop? 7 A. Yes, he was. His work was also twofold, 8 actually. While he was at Our Lady of Sorrows, he was in 9 residence first not as the parish priest but as a 10 counselor/chaplain for the New Mexico State Hospital. 11 That was his principal assignment. And then later, after 12 that, he was appointed as pastor of Our Lady of Sorrows. 13 Q. When you visited Father Griego at Our Lady of 14 Sorrows, did you ever spend the night? 15 A. Yes, I had occasion to spend the night there a 16 couple of times. 17 Q. And did you ever see Father Griego with young 18 boys spending the night? 19 A. No, never was that -- in fact, it was always 20 adult men who were present, men of the parish or parish 21 councils that were there. 22 Q. In 1991, when the Prices informed you and Father 23 Griego confessed that he had been a child molester in the 24 late '70s, did it snap in your mind that you had appointed 25 him to investigate Father Donnollan, also in the late Page 258 1 '70s, and that maybe that investigation would have been 2 tainted by his own self-confessed behavior? 3 A. No, sir, it did not enter my mind. That just 4 did not enter my mind. That enters our minds now because 5 we're dealing with these issues, but that was not in my 6 mind when I addressed him for his therapy. 7 Q. Did you ever appoint Father Griego to 8 investigate the allegations against Father Labresch? 9 A. I don't believe he was on the commission. I 10 don't recall whether he was, but I don't know why I would 11 have -- no, normally when I had a diocesan priest who 12 needed to be investigated, I would ask religious priests 13 to belong to the investigating team. 14 Q. Members of religious orders? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. PASTERNACK: Excuse me. 17 THE WITNESS: Sure. 18 [A discussion was held off the record.] 19 Q. Do you know the reason why Sabine Griego was 20 moved from Our Lady of Sorrows to Queen of Heaven? 21 A. Well, I would -- I propose that I discussed this 22 with our personnel board. The parish in Queen of Heaven 23 was going to be in need of a new pastor. The former 24 pastor, Father Paul Baca, had established a satellite 25 parish off of Queen of Heaven, a new parish, and had asked Page 259 1 to be made the pastor of that new parish. We were going 2 to need, then, a pastor for Queen of Heaven parish. 3 Since it was a large parish, a bilingual parish, we 4 sought out an individual who had that type of parochial 5 experience and we felt would qualify for that. I don't 6 recall the procedure, who else may have been considered as 7 a possible candidate, but ultimately it was voted that 8 Father Sabine Griego would be offered that position. 9 Q. Wasn't one of the reasons why he was removed at 10 Our Lady of Sorrows allegations that he was sexually 11 molesting children there? 12 A. No, that was not a reason for removing him from 13 there. He was transferred and not removed. There's a 14 difference. 15 Q. When the Prices confronted you with these 16 allegations and Father Griego admitted them, you did not 17 appoint any investigating committee, I take it; is that 18 right? 19 A. No, I did not because the man admitted his 20 guilt, and so we did not need to have an investigation. 21 Q. Had you appointed an investigating committee to 22 look into the allegations of Father , against 23 Father ? 24 A. Yes, because he had denied the allegations. 25 Q. Did you ever take trips with Father Griego? Page 260 1 A. I did not take a trip with Father Griego, but I 2 met a group of priests on one occasion for one day in 3 Mexico. They had gone down for a fishing trip, and I had 4 to go to an orphanage that was in that same direction. So 5 I was able to spend one day with them, because I enjoy 6 fishing, and then went on to the orphanage. But I did not 7 go on the entire trip with them. 8 Q. And you say he was with priests? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were there any boys on this fishing trip? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You're acquainted with Father Fitzgerald who 13 lived in the Queen of Heaven rectory, I'm sure. By the 14 way, is he still alive; do you know? 15 A. I believe he is. I have not seen him now in a 16 year, but I think he's going to live forever. He's a 17 grand gentleman. 18 Q. Did he ever tell you that in his opinion or by 19 his observation, Father Griego was sexually molesting 20 children at Queen of Heaven? 21 A. No, he did not tell me that Father Griego was 22 ever sexually molesting children. 23 Q. Did he tell you anything that reflected poorly 24 on Father Griego's character? 25 A. Not reflecting on his character so much perhaps Page 261 1 as on Father Fitzgerald's own privacy. Father Fitzgerald 2 would say that Father Griego had a policy where so many of 3 the parishioners felt free to come into the rectory 4 holding of their meetings, having lunch with the others, 5 and so he felt that their privacy was not as well as it 6 should have been. 7 Q. Putting aside the issue of child molestation for 8 a moment, had it ever come to your attention -- had any 9 allegations ever come to your attention that Sabine Griego 10 was sexually active as a homosexual? 11 A. No, there was no allegations about 12 homosexuality, that he was sexually active. 13 Q. Did Father Griego ever tell you about any trips 14 he had taken to Mazatlan, Acapulco, or any other 15 destinations, with boys? 16 A. No, I don't recall him mentioning any trips he 17 had taken. As I mentioned yesterday, all of the priests 18 have a right to vacation time, and they decide on their 19 own timing, as long as they have a substitute to replace 20 them in their parish for whatever number of days they'll 21 be gone. They're entitled to make that time their own. 22 Q. Are you saying that he never told you about 23 taking boys on trips? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Did you ever take any trips to Las Vegas with Page 262 1 Sabine? 2 A. One trip, yes. There were four of us. The 3 other men had -- I was on my way to a meeting in -- I 4 believe it was Phoenix or Los Angeles -- no, Salt Lake 5 City. I had to go to Salt Lake City, and they asked me if 6 I would join them there, even if it were just for a day, 7 because they felt I needed a break. 8 And so I arranged my ticket to stop off in Las Vegas, 9 and we had dinner together that night, and the next day I 10 continued my trip to Salt Lake City. 11 Q. Do you recall where you stayed? 12 A. I think it was a Holiday Inn. 13 Q. Do you recall seeing Sabine with any boys on 14 that trip? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Are you aware that Sabine has now been sued by 17 one of the Price family? 18 A. I'm not aware of the circumstances of the suit, 19 but I was told that one of the boys, I believe it is, has 20 gone ahead and, I guess, decided to have a suit against 21 him. I don't even know who his attorney is for that. 22 Q. After you -- well, who did you receive that 23 information from, if it was anyone other than your 24 attorney? 25 A. I think -- no, it was just my attorney. Page 263 1 Q. All right. After you received that information -- 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Move to strike that last 3 answer. 4 Q. After you received that information, did you 5 place any calls to either Sabine Griego, Archbishop 6 Sheehan or Father Wolf about the allegations? 7 A. No, I have not spoken with anyone. 8 Q. Did Father Luis Jaramillo ever report to you 9 that Sabine was sexually molesting children while at Queen 10 of Heaven? 11 A. I do not recall any report from Father 12 Jaramillo. 13 Q. Did Father Frank Prieto ever complain to you 14 about Sabine molesting children at Queen of Heaven? 15 A. Not to the best of my recollection, no. 16 Q. Did information ever reach you that Sabine had 17 one or more young boys living with him in the rectory at 18 Queen of Heaven? 19 A. Information -- yes, information was there. I 20 had met one of these men. They were -- one of the -- the 21 man that I met was a godson of Father Griego and was 22 completing his medical studies, completing his medical 23 studies at the University of New Mexico. And I asked 24 Father Griego who he was, and he informed me of this. 25 And I said, "Well, where is he staying?" Page 264 1 He said, "Well, I've allowed him to stay in this 2 guest room off in the side while he completes his 3 studies." And that is the information that I received 4 from him. 5 Q. Do you recall the name of that young man? 6 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. When you say, "men," how old would you say that 8 this young man was? 9 A. He must have been 23, 24, mid 20s. 10 Q. How long ago was this? 11 A. Well, within the last two years. 12 Q. Did that same young man ever show up at the 13 Archbishop's residence while you were living there and 14 Sabine was living with you? 15 A. No, sir. I had given Father Griego orders that 16 no one was to visit him except his family. 17 Q. And is this the only young man that you were 18 aware of as having lived with Sabine in the rectory at 19 Queen of Heaven? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object to the 22 characterization that he lived with Sabine Griego. It 23 misstates the testimony. The testimony was that he was 24 staying in the guest room. 25 Q. After Sabine Griego returned from Southdown, was Page 265 1 he given a parish assignment? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Was he made chaplain at St. Joseph Hospital? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Why? 6 A. This was again part of the recommendation of the 7 therapeutic team at Southdown, that they felt he had spent 8 so many years as a pastor, but that he also had all of the 9 qualifications for chaplaincy. He had been certified on a 10 national level as a chaplain, and we inquired from St. 11 Joseph Hospital whether, in fact, a chaplain was 12 necessary, and they were very anxious to employ him for 13 that position. They were aware that he had completed his 14 stay in Southdown. 15 Q. Would it be correct to say that the majority of 16 priests in chaplain service in the Archidocese of Santa Fe 17 have a history of being accused to have been child 18 molesters? 19 A. No, I don't think you can make that statement 20 accurately, because we choose people for chaplaincies who 21 are able to be certified for that position. They have to 22 go through special CPE training and to be certified before 23 they can assume those positions. 24 We have a chaplain at the State Penitentiary in 25 Santa Fe who has never had any allegations against him, Page 266 1 and he's done an excellent job. Monsignor Bernard Burns, 2 who is now retired, served as a chaplain to rest homes and 3 hospitals for many years, outstanding. Never any 4 allegations against him. So that would not be a true 5 statement. 6 Q. Well, let's take 1992 as an example. Ed 7 Donnollan was at Lovelace, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Sabine Griego was at St. Joseph? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. was at Lovelace? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All three had allegations of sexual abuse? 14 A. It's true. In that particular year in which 15 you're referring to, it is true that there were three of 16 the men were, in fact -- at least Father and 17 Father Sabine Griego. In the case of -- who was the other 18 one you mentioned? 19 Q. Donnollan. 20 A. Father Ed Donnollan, I placed him there 21 principally because of his anger in parish situations. 22 He's a man who seems to do very well in ministry 23 one-on-one with people, but seems to be highly irascible 24 in groups. And I felt that his best service would be as a 25 chaplain. Page 267 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: One second, Mr. 2 Pasternack. 3 [The witness conferred with his attorney.] 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Go ahead. 5 MR. PASTERNACK: You need to take a break? 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No, we were talking 7 about that, Mr. Pasternack. 8 Q. Is Immaculate Conception Church in Downtown 9 Albuquerque run by the Jesuits? 10 A. Yes, sir, it is. 11 Q. Do you recall being contacted by any member of 12 the Jesuits in approximately 1980 or '81 with an 13 allegation that Sabine Griego had molested the child of a 14 Queen of Heaven parishioner? 15 A. No, sir, I have no recollection of that. 16 Q. Do you recall ever being contacted in about 1980 17 or '81 by a woman named who complained to 18 you that her son had been molested by Sabine Griego? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Do you know a woman named ? 21 A. ? 22 Q. . 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you recall getting a call from a woman named 25 , mother of , who complained to Page 268 1 you that Sabine Griego had gotten her son addicted to 2 drugs? 3 A. No, sir, not at all. 4 Q. I'm sure that on occasion when you were 5 Archbishop, you visited Queen of Heaven, as you do many of 6 your parishes? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. During any of those trips did any parishioners 9 attempt to speak with you about allegations that Sabine 10 Griego was molesting their children? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Do you recall a former nun by the name of Lucy, 13 who married Linus Rund or Runde? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Do we have a last name 15 for Sister Lucy? 16 MR. PASTERNACK: Not hers, no. 17 A. I don't recall a Sister Lucy. 18 Q. Do you know Father Anthony Trujillo, at Holy 19 Family? 20 A. Oh, a Franciscan, yes, I know who that would be, 21 then. 22 Q. Did Father Anthony Trujillo ever complain to you 23 that Sabine Griego had sexually molested boys? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did you ever tell any parishioners at Queen of Page 269 1 Heaven that Griego was going to California on sabbatical 2 when, in fact, you had directed him to Southdown for 3 treatment? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did you ever tell any parishioners at Queen of 6 Heaven that Griego was going to Canada to study canon law? 7 A. No, sir. 8 9 10 11 12 Page 272 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, why 16 don't we take a break at this point. 17 MR. PASTERNACK: Okay. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you don't mind, we're 19 trying to save the Archbishop's energy. 20 MR. GOFFE: The time is it 2:22, and we 21 will go off the record. 22 [A recess was taken.] 23 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:47. We are back 24 on the record. 25 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, did you ever, Page 273 1 yourself, see Sabine Griego kissing or fondling a young 2 man? 3 A. No, sir, never. 4 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that you never 5 walked into the chancery office with Ms. K, the Texas 6 situation, you never walked in with her to the chancery of 7 the archidocese and found Griego kissing a boy? 8 A. No, sir, never. 9 Q. We were -- you were talking yesterday about the 10 circumstances under which it's permissible to 11 misrepresent, like to safe one's life. Is it permissible 12 to lie to protect the reputation of the Church? 13 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object, asked 14 and answered. We went through this yesterday. 15 Q. Go ahead. 16 A. No, sir. Truth should be spoken. 17 Q. In your own mind, do you consider it possible or 18 not that you may have blocked some of the recollections 19 about the priests we have discussed today? 20 MR. KONRAD: Objection, calls for 21 speculation. 22 A. I don't know if that's possible. If there were 23 a shocking incident such as you've just related, I would 24 not forget that. Other incidents that happen in your 25 life, daily activities, you tend to forget. I am told Page 274 1 that people are also able to block things out of their 2 minds that are distasteful. I don't know if I have ever 3 done that or not. 4 Q. Who told you that? 5 A. That is -- I wouldn't call it common knowledge, 6 but knowledge that a person can read about -- I've heard 7 that mentioned. I don't know of any specific individual 8 who has mentioned it to me, but over the years, that is 9 something that I have heard. 10 Page 283 1 A. And to do it discreetly, yes. 2 Q. Now, if I recall your testimony about Sabine 3 Griego correctly, when he was basically found out for 4 being a child molester in 1991, you did not put out 5 similar word to the parish at Queen of Heaven. And the 6 obvious question is, why not? 7 A. First of all, it didn't occur to me. And the 8 question is, then, why didn't it occur to me. And I think 9 that in my own mind that we were talking about an event, 10 an issue, that had occurred some 12 or 14 years before 11 that time. In other words, it was not a current issue. 12 But I did not request that that be done at Queen of 13 Heaven, as I had at parish. 14 Q. In approximately what year, if you recall, did 15 you begin putting the word out when you found out that 16 there was someone who had recently departed a parish 17 having molested children there? 18 A. Well, the actions that I took, if they were not 19 already public in nature, I did that again in a discreet 20 way with Father at . He may, as I 21 recall, be the only person that I instructed directly to 22 do that. 23 I believe that I also instructed Father Ted Hunt on 24 one occasion, probably at his own recommendation, to seek 25 out any other boys who may have been molested by Jason Page 284 1 Sigler. Those are two that come to mind. 2 Q. After Father was excused from parish 3 service, did he continue to serve on the priest retirement 4 fund board? 5 A. Yes, he was a member of the priest retirement 6 fund board. It's a board that's independent of the 7 archidocese, as such. I understand their meetings are 8 held something like quarterly, I believe. But I 9 understand that he continued to serve on that board. 10 His position -- he had been revoked. His faculties 11 had been revoked. He was not able to celebrate a public 12 Eucharist or to celebrate the sacraments for people. We 13 revoked those faculties from him. But I am told that he 14 continued to attend the board meetings. How regularly, I 15 would not be able to say. 16 Q. What would be the reason for allowing a priest 17 who was known to you to be a sex offender to remain on the 18 priest retirement fund board? 19 A. I had given an instruction to the board that 20 Father was suspended. He had no faculties. And they -- I 21 expected them to take an action. The board is independent 22 of myself. 23 Q. So are you saying then -- well, you said you 24 expected them to take an action. What action did you 25 expect them to say? Page 285 1 A. To vote to remove him from the board. 2 Q. And did they refuse to do that? 3 A. I don't think they did immediately. But I 4 believe that it took place eventually, but I don't believe 5 it took place immediately. 6 Q. What is your authority when you instruct the 7 board to take certain action, and they don't? 8 A. It was a recommendation. The board itself, the 9 association, is a separately incorporated one; and 10 therefore, it exists apart from my own authority. And my 11 recommendation to them was to inform them that this member 12 of the board had, in fact, been suspended from his 13 faculties, and the recommendation was that he should be 14 removed from the board. 15 I know that they discussed it, and I think they were 16 trying to get some canonical guidelines on what they 17 should do as far as following it, and some legal opinions 18 on it, so that their action would be in accord with both 19 public law, civil law, as well as with canon law. 20 Q. Did it concern you that the priest retirement 21 fund board allowed a known child molester to remain a 22 member of the board for a period of time? 23 A. That is why I let them know the situation. The 24 board is elected by the priests at large from the 25 archidocese. And either they felt that it was best to Page 286 1 leave his name on until the next election, rather than to 2 remove it immediately. But in any event, I do not recall 3 action occurring immediately. 4 Q. I asked you yesterday about Vincent Lipinski, if 5 you had you ever heard allegations of sexual impropriety 6 against Father Vincent Lipinski before he was arrested, 7 and you said, "Before he was arrested, there was one 8 notice brought to me thirdhand, but no allegation." Could 9 you explain what you meant by that? 10 A. Yes, sir, let me shift my mind a moment. I am 11 able to recall receiving notice from a lady who had worked 12 with the Archidocese regarding policy for reporting, 13 bringing to our attention sexual misconduct. She has been 14 employed by the State on many occasions in this particular 15 area and works with State institutions. She called to 16 inform me that she had received a call from a parish 17 priest, informing her that he had received a call from 18 another lady who, in turn, had apparently spoken with 19 someone who was aware of an allegation that had been made 20 regarding Father Lipinski, that on some occasion -- and no 21 detail was given to me, just on some occasion, that he had 22 abused or attempted to abuse a teenager, apparently, is 23 what I gathered. 24 The information had come to me, as I say, thirdhand, 25 and no specific names were presented or specific times or Page 287 1 specific places. In any event, I thanked her for that 2 information and proceeded, then, to invite Father Lipinski 3 to come to meet with me, that I might confront him with 4 the information that was presented to me. 5 I confronted him with this information, as best I 6 could from what I knew. He told me that he denied any 7 allegation. He said that they -- they had indicated that 8 apparently this event or abuse had occurred at the parish 9 of Our Lady of FatimA. I asked him -- he had been 10 stationed at Our Lady of FatimA. I asked him about his 11 own activity there. He proceeded to tell me what his main 12 concerns were. He denied this. 13 I called the pastor under whom he served and asked if 14 he knew of any suspicious times or moments when Father 15 Lipinski may have been associating with youth in any 16 fashion that would be considered suspicious. He said he 17 had absolutely no recollection of any event, that Father 18 had served well. 19 And so I cautioned Father Vincent Lipinski that we 20 would be open to any further call that we might receive 21 from anyone regarding this, because it had come in 22 thirdhand, and that he had to make certain that his life 23 was being lived properly before God, avoiding any 24 excessive time with the youth of his parish, because he 25 was now a pastor and would have youth organizations and Page 288 1 other organizations for which he would be responsible. 2 I then called the lady back who had called me and 3 informed her of what had taken place and asked her, then, 4 to inform the people whose names were not provided to me, 5 and I heard no more from them. 6 Q. Do you recall the name of this lady? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. What agency did she work for? 9 A. Oh, the lady who had informed me? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Yes, her name is Stella Gallegos. 12 Q. And she was an employee of Human Services? 13 A. She had worked for Human Services in one of the 14 area branches, and then she became apparently 15 independently employed as an expert in child molestation 16 cases. 17 Q. As a counselor? 18 A. As a counselor, and has been hired throughout 19 the State to give seminars to teachers, to employees, to 20 various groups throughout the State. And the archidocese 21 had solicited her expertise when we were creating the 22 document on sexual abuse policy, because she was familiar 23 with that. 24 Q. You mentioned that the lady informed you that 25 she had received information about Lipinski through a Page 289 1 priest? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. What priest had given her the information? 4 A. That was Father Rick Barela, who was, at that 5 time, the associate pastor, assistant pastor at Our Lady 6 of Fatima parish. 7 Q. Did you ever talk to Father Rick Barela about 8 the allegations that had been apparently made against 9 Father Lipinski? 10 A. I spoke with him, and he had -- he said he had 11 only served as a conduit. He did not know anything about 12 this. He had simply received the phone call to relay on 13 to us, and he felt the best person to contact was Stella 14 Gallegos since she had given or conducted seminars for our 15 priests regarding reporting. 16 Q. Did he say that he had learned this from the 17 victim, alleged victim, or family of the alleged victim? 18 A. No, he said just from another lay woman from 19 another parish, but I had no victim or family member. 20 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the 21 screen, is 3:17 PM. This ends tape 4 in the deposition of 22 Archbishop Sanchez. We are off the record. 23 [A recess was taken.] 24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:27. We are back 25 on the record with the beginning of tape number 5 in the Page 290 1 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez. 2 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, do you recall 3 approximately the year in which these allegations 4 involving Father Lipinski were brought to your attention 5 by Stella? 6 A. I believe it was either 1988 or 1989. I think 7 it was that -- perhaps 1989. 8 Q. You stated that -- I believe you stated that you 9 talked to the current parish priest at Fatima and told him 10 to keep his ears open for any similar things? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Who was that? 13 A. That was Father -- you mean the priest who had 14 called? 15 Q. No. 16 A. The pastor? 17 Q. The one who was currently the pastor when you 18 received the situation. 19 A. The pastor was Father Clarence Galli, and I 20 believe he still is the pastor. 21 Q. And he never reported any other allegations to 22 you? 23 A. No. 24 Q. In other cases where there had been a denial, 25 you had appointed an investigating team. Did you appoint Page 291 1 an investigating team with regard to Lipinski? 2 A. No, I did not, and I did not because I had not 3 received anything that I would call directly. This was 4 such a thirdhand type of statement, I was in hopes that 5 whoever had made the statement, that they would come forth 6 either with a letter, more directly or giving some 7 information, giving some dates, something of this nature. 8 This is what I was seeking. 9 Q. Did you ask Father Galli, as you had with Father 10 , to announce from the pulpit that you wished to 11 receive such information? 12 A. No, because, again, this had not come from 13 someone within that parish. This had come from someone 14 outside of that parish. Furthermore, I didn't know 15 whether this was simply a rumor, someone who was simply 16 trying to detract from Father Lipinski, or whether it was 17 serious. But getting back to them, by calling Ms. 18 Gallegos and asking her to relay that message. If they 19 wanted to contact me, I would be there. 20 Q. Was it your impression that Ms. Gallegos knew 21 who the alleged victim was? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Father Lipinski is and was at that time a 24 relatively young priest, I think, wasn't he? 25 A. Yes, I believe he had been ordained just about Page 292 1 one year or two -- well, when this allegation occurred, he 2 had been ordained at least two years, probably three. 3 Q. As a young boy, do you know whether Father 4 Lipinski attended the parochial school at St. Therese? 5 A. I don't know where he went to school as a young 6 boy. I believe that his parish -- I believe his parish 7 was Our Lady of the Assumption parish in Albuquerque, 8 rather than St. Therese. 9 Q. Did you ask Father Lipinski, when you spoke to 10 him, whether he had ever been molested as a child? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. By the time you talked to Father Lipinski in 13 roughly 1989, had you received any complaints about a 14 Father ? 15 A. No. I believe that complaints about Father 16 , whom I do not know and did not know, came in 17 when Father Ron Wolf was chancellor, and we had initiated 18 a public number for everyone to call. I think that that's 19 when the allegation came in. 20 Q. Did you ever send out a letter to any priest or 21 priests asking them, in essence, to watch out for Father 22 Lipinski because of allegations of behavioral 23 improprieties? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And then is it correct that from the time of the Page 293 1 1989 thirdhand complaint, you heard nothing more of a 2 similar nature until his arrest in October of '92? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. After he was arrested in October of '92, did you 5 call him in? 6 A. I did not call him in personally because he had 7 been arrested. I had the dean of the northwest deanery, 8 to which he belonged, to go and visit with him 9 immediately. And then we asked him to take up residence 10 with the Servants of the Paraclete, and he was removed 11 from that very moment from his parish, and I did not see 12 him then nor have I seen him to this day. 13 I had inquired from an attorney that he had, 14 apparently was going to represent him, and I don't recall 15 who the attorney was, whether it would be appropriate to 16 visit with him or not. My concern was that -- could that 17 time be used for him to go into therapy. That was my 18 concern. And the attorney felt that it was best for him 19 not to go into therapy until after whatever trial or 20 actions were going to take place would occur. 21 Q. Who was the dean of the northwest deanery who 22 visited with him? 23 A. His name is Father Johnny Lee Chavez. 24 Q. Did Father Chavez indicate to you whether Father 25 Lipinski admitted or denied the allegations? Page 294 1 A. No, I don't believe he asked him about the 2 admission or denial. I was wondering how he was doing, 3 what had happened. The man was in jail, apparently, and 4 we were trying to get a place for him to stay. I wanted 5 him to be with the Servants of the Paraclete once he would 6 be released from the custody of the police. 7 Father Johnny did not confer with me about any 8 admission or denial of his alleged crime, or whatever we 9 want to call that. 10 Q. Were you still Archbishop when Father Lipinski's 11 case was resolved? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you order any sort of independent 14 investigation of his behavior, apart from the police 15 investigation, when he was arrested in Questa? 16 A. No. I did have two things take place. I felt 17 that we needed to make ourselves present to the people of 18 QuestA. So I asked Father Ron Wolf to go to Questa for 19 two separate weekends, and I would go on a third weekend 20 and make ourselves present to the community for anyone who 21 would want to come to speak to us, and we would celebrate 22 Mass for them on Sunday and in the missions and again make 23 ourselves available to anyone who would like to speak to 24 us. 25 Q. And did any other person claiming to be a Page 295 1 Lipinski victim come forward? 2 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 3 Q. Once he was arrested for child molestation, did 4 you undertake any effort to notify the previous parishes 5 at which he had served? 6 A. No, sir, not while I was the Archbishop. 7 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is he without 8 faculties at this point? 9 A. Oh, yes, his faculties were suspended 10 immediately and have not been given back. 11 Q. I asked you yesterday about Father Clive Lynn, 12 and you stated that you had heard information about sexual 13 molestation by Clive Lynn. Can you tell me to the best of 14 your recollection when you first heard allegations that 15 Clive Lynn was a child molester? 16 A. Comments or communication -- and I don't recall 17 if they were written or phone calls -- were communicated 18 to us by another priest in the same community, but the 19 allegations took place in Raton, New Mexico. 20 We have two Catholic parishes in Raton, New Mexico. 21 Father Clive Lynn was pastor of one, St. Joseph's, and it 22 was from that parish that complaints were coming to me. 23 The initial complaints that I received from that 24 parish concerned, again, his personal attitude, being very 25 sharp with the parishioners, overly forceful, anger, what Page 296 1 they felt was divisiveness within the parish, and then 2 subsequently as time went on, concern about Father 3 Lipinski being close only to a few boys -- 4 Q. You mean Lynn, I'm sure. 5 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes, Father Lynn being 6 close to only a few boys and not to all of the altar boys. 7 I spoke with Father Lynn about the concerns of the 8 parishioners. 9 Q. About when was this? 10 A. I believe it must have been around 1982. Gosh, 11 '82, '83, '84. I'm not quite certain right offhand. My 12 memory is just a little confused with all these others. 13 In any event, when he was the pastor in that parish, that 14 is when these allegations occurred. 15 Having questioned him, he said that complaints were 16 coming in because he was trying to introduce a more 17 disciplined approach to the Catholic faith, and people 18 were complaining because of his strictness, and that 19 complaints about him and the altar boys were because of 20 jealousy of one group against others. And he was trying 21 to, again, teach the altar boys, and some of them were 22 complaining about him. 23 I asked a priest, who was raised in Raton and would 24 know some of the families there, to go and discreetly 25 inquire from families what they were hearing or what they Page 297 1 knew about the situation, because there seemed to be a 2 denial, and yet there seemed to be divisiveness. There 3 was not such clear allegations for sexual misconduct as 4 there was strong voices about the parish being destroyed 5 by the way he was operating it. 6 But I did ask the priest who was born up there to go 7 there and to find out what he could. This priest was 8 Father Johnny Lee Chavez, the man that we have just 9 recently spoken about. He was born in Raton. He was able 10 to go there and to speak with the people. His report to 11 me was that he felt this man was, in fact, hurting the 12 people with his manners. He did not see anything directly 13 regarding child abuse, but told the people that if there 14 was any suspicion of this, they should report it to the 15 District Attorney. 16 Apparently, a report was made to the District 17 Attorney, and I understand that the District Attorney for 18 that area is in Taos County, and the District Attorney 19 then initiated an investigation of the situation and then 20 wrote to say that they were not going to press charges, 21 and I don't recall why, but I think it was because they 22 did not find sufficient information to do so. In any 23 event, they did not press charges. 24 I still felt very concerned about the parish and then 25 notified the pastor that he was going to be relieved of Page 298 1 the parish in that spring, which was in June, and I was 2 asking him, then, to go to a center for therapy and go 3 through a full evaluation. I was concerned twofold: One 4 because there had been talk about possible sexual 5 misconduct, but also because of his conduct in 6 administering the parish that had indeed resulted in a 7 divisiveness among the community of his parish. 8 He went to such a center for therapy, and I'm trying 9 to recall where it was located. I believe it was in 10 Massachusetts. I can't recall the name of it immediately. 11 But he went through the evaluation, but returned home 12 saying that he felt disgusted with the procedures and 13 cared not to return there. I told him that I could not 14 give him faculties nor any other assignment until he went 15 through therapy. 16 He then chose not to receive any assignment. He 17 asked permission to go to Eastern New Mexico University to 18 take courses in counseling and then asked permission to 19 return to his home in Ireland to take care of his aging 20 parents. I told him that I could not give him faculties 21 if he was not going to go through any therapy before he 22 would leave. He chose to leave. He was suspended totally 23 from faculties of the archidocese. He has been gone since 24 that time and has never received faculties again. 25 Q. I believe you mentioned that it was first Page 299 1 these -- some sort of allegations were first brought to 2 your attention by a priest? 3 A. No, I was saying I cannot recall whether the 4 allegations came to my attention either in writing or 5 through any phone calls or perhaps through the priest from 6 the other parish. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Page 300 1 2 Q. Do you recall getting any letters from any 3 parishioners complaining that Father Lynn had been 4 sexually molesting children in Raton? 5 A. I don't believe I had any letters regarding 6 sexual molestation. If you have any letters that you can 7 refresh my memory with, I would like to see them. But I 8 just can't recall at this moment that letters came in 9 regarding that, in particular. 10 Q. If you recall, I'd like to know a little bit 11 about his history. Was he originally ordained and 12 incardinated into this archidocese? 13 A. He was a native of Ireland and had attended 14 apparently a seminary in Ireland. I don't know where. 15 Had applied to my predecessor for consideration for 16 ordination for the Archidocese of Santa Fe. Apparently my 17 predecessor accepted his request, and eventually either 18 ordained him himself or he was ordained prior to his 19 coming. I don't know the particulars. And then he began 20 his ministry in the archidocese. 21 Q. Do you know whether he was ever a resident at 22 Servants of the Paraclete? 23 A. No, he was never a resident in the Servants of 24 the Paraclete. 25 Q. Do you recall what his parish assignments were? Page 301 1 A. I think he began his priestly ministry with an 2 assignment first at Holy Ghost parish in Albuquerque as an 3 assistant. I think his second assignment was to St. 4 Therese parish in Albuquerque as an assistant. After 5 that, I believe the Archbishop did not give him an 6 assignment because he had been fighting with the pastors, 7 and so he was not given an assignment immediately. I 8 think he was taking classes at the university or something 9 of this nature. Then I believe he was assigned to Fort 10 Sumner and from Fort Sumner to MorA. I can remember that 11 because I was the one who made those assignments. And 12 from Mora to St. Joseph's in Raton. 13 Q. Do you recall whether there were ever any 14 allegations of sexual impropriety made against Father Lynn 15 while he was at St. Therese? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you recall whether there were ever any 18 allegations of sexual impropriety made against Father Lynn 19 while he was in Mora? 20 A. No. The allegations that came to me that 21 referred to possible sexual misconduct came to me from 22 Raton, when he was in Raton. 23 Q. In fact, hasn't the archidocese settled a 24 lawsuit involving his alleged sexual misconduct in Mora? 25 A. That is true. The archidocese has settled a Page 302 1 lawsuit -- no, it wasn't a lawsuit. 2 Q. A claim? 3 A. A claim. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm going to object at 5 this point. It seems to me that the settlement of a claim 6 that is either unfiled or not a public record doesn't 7 indicate any knowledge whatsoever on the part of the 8 Archbishop and therefore is irrelevant. 9 Q. You can go ahead and answer. 10 MS. KENNEDY: Well, I'd also have a further 11 objection that I don't think that settlement matters are 12 an appropriate area to be going into and would object to 13 it that it's beyond the scope of proper discovery. 14 A. I don't know whether the settlement is 15 confidential. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Archbishop -- 17 [The witness conferred with his attorney.] 18 A. I don't recall at this moment, Mr. Pasternack, 19 whether that settlement was confidential in nature or not. 20 I think that that information should be obtained before I 21 would make comment on it. I think that's probably what 22 should be done. 23 Q. Well, in fact, Archbishop, the attorney that you 24 dealt with in settling that case was Anthony Fontana of 25 Abbeyville, Louisiana, wasn't it? Page 303 1 A. May I ask some guidance? I just want to make 2 certain that I am doing the right thing legally. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let's go off the record 4 for a moment. 5 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:51. We will go 6 off the record. 7 [A discussion was held off the record.] 8 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:52. We are back 9 on the record. 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, what 11 we're going to do is we're going to make some contact with 12 the attorney for the the archidocese who conducted the 13 settlement negotiations and entered into the settlement 14 and determine what the confidentiality requirements are 15 and then make a decision whether or not we want to comply 16 with your questioning. 17 So if we could pass this for a moment, we'll do 18 our best to find that information out as quickly as we 19 can. 20 MR. PASTERNACK: All right. Well, maybe if 21 you could get that by tomorrow. 22 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) I just want to see if one 23 other question will jog your recollection, Archbishop, and 24 we can see if your counsel will let you answer it. 25 Isn't it a fact that you had direct negotiations with Page 304 1 Mr. Fontana at which time he made it very clear to you 2 that he would not agree to confidentiality? 3 A. I cannot recall any terms of that agreement. 4 That's why I'd like to check. And if it's not 5 confidential, I'll be happy to share with you whatever I 6 can recall. If it is confidential, I feel obliged to 7 abide by those guidelines. 8 Q. After the settlement with Mr. Fontana, didn't 9 you, in fact, solicit advice from Mr. Fontana on how to 10 deal with allegations of sexual misconduct that arose in 11 the Santa Fe Archidocese? 12 THE WITNESS: Am I free to -- 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we -- let us 14 postpone that questioning, if you don't mind, Mr. 15 Pasternack, until we can clear up whether or not this is 16 confidential. 17 MR. PASTERNACK: That has nothing to do 18 with the settlement. 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We don't know yet. We 20 don't have the settlement in front of us. If you have a 21 copy of the settlement agreement, then perhaps you can 22 share it with us, and we can short-circuit this inquiry. 23 If not, let's postpone the inquiry, and we'll get back to 24 you tomorrow. 25 A. I'd be happy to respond to that as soon as we Page 305 1 have that information regarding the settlement. 2 Q. But for now, you decline? 3 A. I think it's best -- I have no idea what that's 4 part of -- I don't believe it's part of the settlement. 5 But I don't know whether I'm free just to talk about Mr. 6 Fontana or not. 7 Q. I'm not asking, for the moment, about the 8 settlement. I'm asking if you asked Mr. Fontana, apart 9 from the settlement, to give you guidance on how to avoid 10 allegations of sexual misconduct or how to handle them 11 when they occurred in the Santa Fe Archidocese. 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, what 13 we're saying is while -- before we agree -- before he 14 answers any questions concerning his relationship with Mr. 15 Fontana or Mr. Fontana's client or the case in which Mr. 16 Fontana represented the Plaintiff, we'd like to have the 17 information concerning the settlement agreement. If that 18 clears us to answer those inquiries, we will oblige you as 19 soon as we can. 20 THE WITNESS: Sure. 21 Q. Did you ever consider Mr. Fontana to be your 22 lawyer, Archbishop? 23 A. No. 24 Q. In fact, wasn't Father Lynn removed from Mora 25 and sent to Raton because he had been caught sexually Page 306 1 molesting a child in Mora? 2 A. No, sir. There had not been any removal from 3 MorA. There was a transfer from Mora on to Raton. There 4 was problems in Mora, again, with his administrative 5 procedures. The people in that community were becoming 6 divided because of it, and I felt that it would be easier 7 for people in Raton to try to follow with him, because 8 it's more of a city, less of a rural village. 9 [Exhibit 8 was marked for identification.] 10 Q. Exhibit 8 is a letter dated November 7, 1984, 11 from , purporting to be from 12 , to you. I'd like you to look at that and see if 13 you've ever received that letter. 14 The question was if you recall receiving that? 15 A. Reading the letter now, I recall receiving this 16 letter. 17 Q. All right. And after that letter, do you recall 18 having a meeting that included and other 19 women from Raton in which they complained about the sexual 20 molestation of their children by Clive Lynn? 21 A. Do you recall where the meeting was held, just 22 to help stimulate my memory? 23 Q. According to Ms. , after that letter. 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I think the question was 25 where the meeting was held. Page 307 1 A. Where? Did she indicate where it was held? I'm 2 just trying to remember. It is possible that I may have 3 met with Mrs. and other women during the visit to 4 St. Patrick's parish in Raton. I recall that I had 5 invited whoever would like to meet with me, because of the 6 situation of divisiveness in the community, and I don't 7 know if it was only women or whether other men perhaps 8 were part of that meeting. But I do know I had invited 9 people to meet with me. 10 Q. Do you recall whether at that meeting you were 11 presented with allegations that Father Lynn had been 12 sexually molesting boys in Raton? 13 A. I do not recall that exactly, but it's very 14 possible that that allegation was also included in their 15 complaints, because they had many complaints. 16 Q. Do you recall ever communicating in writing with 17 Mrs. about her concern? 18 A. I may have acknowledged receipt of the letter, 19 which is my normal procedure. If I am not mistaken, I may 20 also have asked Father Johnny Lee Chavez to visit with 21 with Mrs. , if he knew her, when he went to Raton 22 for the visit with parishioners. 23 [Exhibit 9 was marked for identification.] 24 Q. Exhibit 9 is a letter to you from Mrs. 25 dated January 15, '86, and it refers to another letter Page 308 1 from her that we don't have dated December 1, '85. I'm 2 sorry, I don't have that now. But let me see if you 3 recall writing this letter to . 4 MR. BARDACKE: Bruce, what was the date of 5 Exhibit 8? 6 MR. PASTERNACK: November 7, '84. 7 MR. KONRAD: Can we look at it? Thanks. 8 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) The question was, do you 9 recall writing that letter? 10 A. I have no recollection of it, but it is my 11 letter. 12 Q. Now, do you recall when you finally removed 13 Clive Lynn? 14 A. It was shortly after that letter. 15 Q. Now, her first expression of concern seems to 16 have been in '84. 17 A. In '84. 18 Q. Why did it take over a year to remove him? 19 A. I don't recall it taking all that long. I know 20 that Exhibit 8, you said, was -- 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Do we have Exhibit 8, 22 Mr. Pasternack? Thank you. 23 A. November '84, yes. I must assume that the date 24 on this letter is not meant to be November '85. I'm 25 assuring that it must be November '84. Your question was Page 309 1 why it took so long for the man to be removed. The 2 initial indications about Father and his parish certainly 3 caused me great concern. And as you have indicated, I was 4 able to meet with parishioners -- I don't recall who all 5 was present -- to find out their concerns, in addition to 6 asking a priest to get information, so that we might act 7 responsibly, since there was a divided parish. 8 Why the time went on and removal from the parish did 9 not occur at that time, I don't have any particular 10 explanation. I -- 11 Q. Yet in Exhibit 9, you ask of Mrs. who 12 J. Minos Simon of Lafayette, Louisiana, is that she had 13 referred to. 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Did there come a time, that you recall, where J. 16 Minos Simon, an attorney, did in fact contact you or your 17 people about Clive Lynn? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did there come a time when an attorney named 20 Jack Hill from San Francisco contacted you about Clive 21 Lynn? 22 A. Not to my recollection. 23 Q. Now, you offered -- in Exhibit 9, you offered 24 Mrs. counseling for the children at the hands of 25 what you refer to as "at least three in the Archidocese Page 310 1 who are well credentialed and quite experienced in the 2 area of guidance and counseling." 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Do you recall who you had in mind when you wrote 5 that? 6 A. Yes, I had in mind -- first person was one who 7 was also born in the Raton area and was known to these 8 folks, and that was Father Clarence Galli. Secondly, I 9 had in mind Father Ronald Bruckner, who at that time 10 was -- I don't recall exactly where he was stationed at 11 the time, but I believe he was stationed in Los Alamos, 12 New Mexico, at that time, who was also credentialed. And 13 there was a third person, a Father Brown, who was also 14 licensed for counseling in the state of New Mexico. Those 15 three were, to my knowledge, qualified to be able to at 16 least initiate dialogue with the family and with the 17 children. I felt that with a priest present to the 18 families, they would feel that they could speak openly and 19 would give them the type of assurance that a family would 20 need. If, in fact, the -- any child who may have been 21 abused in any way needed further assistance, they would be 22 able to help recommend or guide them to such a person. 23 Q. Did it occur to you that a child who had been 24 sexually molested by a priest might not be enthusiastic 25 about receiving psychological counseling from a priest? Page 311 1 A. That was possible. That's why I made the offer 2 to the ladies to see if -- to Mrs. if that would 3 be appropriate. If she had replied that she would prefer 4 not to have any priest, but rather to have someone else, 5 that certainly would have been provided. 6 Q. You state in Exhibit 9, "While one can cite 7 examples of accusations of wrong-doing on the part of 8 clergy in all of the various religious denominations, 9 those accusations should not detract from the essential 10 religious messages of peace, love, courage and forgiveness 11 among men which are communicated by most religious 12 denominations." 13 By those words, were you, in essence, suggesting to 14 Mrs. that she forgive Father Lynn for what he 15 did? 16 A. No. You failed to read the final paragraph in 17 the preceding page in which she said that she had been 18 shaken with this, and I was trying to reassure her that to 19 try to have strength, moral strength, within herself, not 20 to be shaken regarding the clergy that's here to serve the 21 people, because of the actions of one that she was 22 concerned about. So I wrote that paragraph. 23 Q. After you were convinced that Father Lynn had 24 sexually molested boys in Raton, did you make any efforts 25 to communicate with the people in the prior parishes where Page 312 1 he had served, either Mora or St. Therese, to find out 2 whether any boys had been molested by him there? 3 A. No, sir, I did not. 4 Q. And did you not feel the responsibility as 5 Archbishop to make such an inquiry and thereby help these 6 children, if they existed? 7 A. Making an inquiry of that nature simply did not 8 occur to me. 9 Q. Would that have been calumny? 10 A. No, I'm not thinking of that. It just did not 11 occur to me to go back to other parishes and make similar 12 inquiries. It had not been our practice, and so it simply 13 did not come to my mind. 14 Q. If Father Lynn sexually molested boys in Raton, 15 did you have a suspicion that he likely had sexually 16 molested boys elsewhere? 17 A. If I had had a specific allegation of 18 molestation in Raton and he was found guilty of that, I 19 may have had that. My action with Father Lynn was taken 20 from suspicions, the allegations, the talk of people 21 without any individual coming forth to be named. 22 In any event, I did not feel it my -- I don't say I 23 don't feel it my obligation. I did not become aware, in 24 my own mind, or think about going to another parish to 25 inquire whether or not his presence in their parish had Page 313 1 resulted in any type of molestations of youth. 2 Q. You were, were you not, a counselor at St. Pius? 3 A. I was an academic counselor at St. Pius. 4 Q. Did you have any training in psychology 5 whatsoever in your educational background? 6 A. They did not include psychology for academic 7 counseling. 8 Q. Have you ever had that type of training? 9 A. There was a course in my training as a 10 seminarian for the priesthood which was considered to be 11 the philosophy of psychology, but it was not for clinical 12 purposes or evaluation purposes. 13 Q. So was it not within your contemplation in, 14 let's say, 1986, when you removed Lynn, that people who 15 molest children tend to have molested children before? 16 A. It did not occur to me. It did not occur to me. 17 Q. I'd asked you yesterday if you had received any 18 allegations regarding Father Charlie Martinez, and you 19 indicated that you hadn't. I'm wondering if you knew 20 Father Charlie Martinez. He was a Franciscan born in 21 Canjilon and did a lot of work in that area as a priest. 22 A. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I 23 knew Father Charlie Martinez. In fact, I knew him as a 24 pastor of St. Patrick's, I believe, in ChamA. During his 25 tenure as pastor, I had occasion to visit the parish on Page 314 1 various occasions, to meet with the women religious who 2 worked with him in education and to meet with all of the 3 parishioners because of the Mass celebrations and other 4 festivities. But no allegation was ever brought to my 5 attention. 6 Q. In any form at any time? 7 A. No. In fact, they had glowing reports for his 8 work with the people there. 9 Q. As a Franciscan working within the geographical 10 boundaries of the archidocese, would he have had to have 11 been granted faculties by you in order to serve? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you recall whether you made any 14 investigation or inquiry of him before granting those 15 faculties? 16 A. He was recommended to me by his own superior, as 17 are all of the Franciscans or religious are recommended to 18 me for faculties and for appointment to a specific place. 19 Once that recommendation comes to me from their superior, 20 I trust that they have cleared this man in his formation, 21 in his experience for the position they recommend him. 22 If, for some reason, I personally disagree because I feel 23 that perhaps he's just ordained and would not do well in a 24 certain parish, then I can voice my opinion to the 25 superiors. But by and large, I go by the recommendation Page 315 1 of their superiors. 2 Q. And would that mean that the general rule is you 3 do not interview the applicant but rather just rely on 4 whatever letters or verbal instructions you receive? 5 A. In dealing with religious communities, that is 6 the procedure. 7 Q. And when you grant faculties to a Franciscan, is 8 that commemorated by a written document? 9 A. It is included in his letter of appointment to 10 that parish. If I appoint him as pastor of a parish, he 11 automatically receives the faculties of the Archdiocese to 12 serve in that parish. 13 Q. So even though Father Charlie Martinez was a 14 Franciscan, his parish appointment, as well as his 15 faculties, would have to emanate from the Archbishop? 16 A. Yes, at the recommendation of his own superior. 17 Q. And during the time that you were Archbishop, 18 would it be correct to say that, as a general rule, even 19 though you were making these appointments and granting 20 these faculties, you took the word of the superior without 21 conducting any sort of independent review? 22 A. Yes, because I did not know their background 23 personally. Their education was done separately from our 24 Archdiocese. Oftentimes they had served in other parishes 25 that were unknown to me. So I had to depend upon their Page 316 1 superiors. 2 Q. I asked you yesterday were there any allegations 3 of sexual impropriety brought up during your tenure as 4 Archbishop against Father , and your answer 5 was, "One"? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I did not go into it yesterday, 8 A. Right. 9 Q. But I'd like to ask you about it today. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Father mentioned to me that in the course of 21 his ministry to the people, that a lady had approached him 22 and said that her adult son, who was married, was going 23 through some traumatic experiences because his wife was 24 threatening to leave him. And in the course of this, he 25 shared, then, with his mother an incident that occurred Page 317 1 when he was younger, saying that he had been abused by 2 Father . Father said he wanted to 3 relay that information to me. 4 I instructed Father , then, to meet with the 5 gentleman about whom the woman had spoken, to meet with 6 the family, to receive the particulars and -- 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Page 318 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 He remained with them approximately six months and 11 then came to me and said that he had satisfied his 12 curiosity, that he believed now that he really should 13 remain with the Diocesan priesthood. I told him I did not 14 have a parish opening at the time, but I would ask him to 15 take the directorship of Bethany House for me, since it 16 needed repairs and someone to manage it. And he agreed to 17 do that and, in fact, did that for, I suppose, close to a 18 year. 19 And it was during that time that this allegation came 20 in. And I informed him of it. He admitted the 21 molestation of the boy. I told him that I could not allow 22 him to have the faculties, then, of the Archdiocese until 23 this treatment of the family and all had settled, and then 24 we would talk about his future. 25 The request of the family in was assistance Page 319 1 from the Archdiocese for this man to go through therapy 2 from the therapist of his choice, and he had one that he 3 had chosen in the area, and that was granted 4 immediately. And he did begin to take therapy there, and 5 the family was very grateful for this. The pastor was 6 going to try to help mend the family, since the wife was 7 threatening to leave, and they were going to try to have a 8 reconciliation. 9 No general announcement was made to the parish about 10 the abuse of this man. The family wanted to keep it quite 11 confidential because the person was already suffering 12 emotionally from the separation from his wife. And he 13 continued to go through therapy, and I was assured by the 14 pastor that they were cared for. And that was about it. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Page 320 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. And apart from the family wishing to keep it 12 quiet and protect the name of the boy who was molested, 13 did you ever seek permission to advise the community that 14 Father had admitted molesting some boy and ask the 15 community if there were other victims there? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you approach any of the other parishes of 18 which Father had been assigned to ask if he had 19 molested anyone there? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you report Father admitted 22 molestation to any civil authorities? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 25 Page 322 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Bruce, yesterday we went 23 a little long. I was concerned that -- I think the 24 Archbishop's concentration flags when he gets tired. I 25 would suggest that we recess for the evening and begin Page 323 1 again tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock. He's tired. It's a been 2 a fairly long day for him. And I think we might do better 3 if he's had the advantage of an evening's rest before we 4 resume. 5 MR. PASTERNACK: I understand, and I don't 6 want to be discourteous. I want to point out that 7 yesterday we were delayed in beginning until about 11:00 8 o'clock because of the parade, and we've apparently only 9 been allocated a certain amount of time to conduct this 10 deposition. If we conclude early, that may require the 11 deposition to extend an extra day. 12 And I'm prepared to continue, but I want to 13 accommodate your needs with the understanding that that 14 may make the deposition go longer. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't like depositions 16 that drag on and on and on. I will do my best. We have 17 another half hour, and I will go at it for another half 18 hour and try to respond as best I can. 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let me suggest to you, 20 Mr. Pasternack, that we probably have about nine hours of 21 solid testimony at this point in the space of two days. 22 And when we began late yesterday, I suggested that we 23 might want to continue beyond 5:00 o'clock yesterday. 24 That request, that suggestion, didn't seem to gain popular 25 approval, at least from yourself. Page 324 1 We'll go, if you like, for another half hour if, 2 Archbishop, if you feel you can do it. If your attention 3 flags, we can hold. I'm happy to discontinue now and 4 begin again tomorrow, or we can begin again earlier 5 tomorrow than 9:00 o'clock. But we've not done badly. 6 We've got about nine hours in two days, and that's with 7 breaks. That's just testimony. 8 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Yesterday, I asked you 9 about allegations involving Father , 10 and I believe you indicated affirmatively that there had 11 been some. Please tell me about those. 12 A. Father is a priest of the 13 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. He came to us from the Diocese 14 of Amarillo, at their own recommendation. He was ordained 15 for this Archdiocese, although he was studying and 16 preparing for the priesthood in that diocese. 17 I believe that there were allegations against Father 18 for sexual misconduct -- 19 Q. Are you too tired to continue, Archbishop? 20 A. I'm trying to remember one event, and I'm just 21 going to ask if you could help me with any documentation 22 you have, just to click that on, and I'd be happy to go 23 with it. But I'm not focusing in on dates or the event. 24 Q. Well, I don't know what you were referring to 25 yesterday, and so I want to see what you recall. Page 325 1 A. Okay. The recollection that's in my mind at 2 this time is that Father was serving as a 3 chaplain at 4 Q. 5 A. NM -- yes. And apparently during one of the 6 semester breaks or holidays, he was invited by one of the 7 to share dinner at their home. I believe it was in 8 Denver, Colorado. And he did, in fact, go with the 9 there, and apparently he spent the night with the family. 10 And that night he apparently entered the room of the 11 or the young man, and no assault took place, but 12 apparently there was overtures to that. He felt 13 embarrassed about it and spoke to the mother the next 14 morning. 15 As far as I understand and can recall at this moment, 16 there was no sexual activity between them at all, but he 17 had entered the room and had attempted this. 18 In any event, this report was given to the mother. 19 She, in turn, called the local bishop who, in turn, 20 informed me, . I then 21 had spoke to Father about it, but I had to inform the 22 Bishop of Las Cruces, 23 24 25 He was then removed from his position, and I sent him Page 326 1 to Jemez Springs for treatment. I can't recall the year 2 right offhand. 3 Q. Do you recall approximately when that would have 4 been? 5 A. Probably around, what, '84, '85, perhaps that 6 timetable. 7 8 Page 327 1 2 3 Q. Would he then have been considered an extern 4 priest in Las Cruces? 5 A. Yes, he would have been considered a 6 non-incardinated priest serving in their Diocese. 7 Q. Was he still formally a priest of the Santa Fe 8 Archdiocese? 9 A. Yes, he was. 10 Q. Now, had you ever received any allegations that 11 he had molested boys at ? 12 A. No, I received no allegations of that nature. 13 Q. When you received the allegation at -- and 14 by the way, I assume this was a boy of high school age? 15 A. No, this was college age. 16 Q. Okay. Did you call Father 17 in to talk to him about the allegation? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Did he admit it or deny it? 20 A. Yes, he did, he admitted. 21 Q. And do you recall how long he was at Servants of 22 the Paraclete? 23 A. He was there for their full program, which would 24 probably be between six months and possibly a year. 25 Q. After he was released from Servants of the Page 328 1 Paraclete, did you have occasion to put him back into 2 parish work? 3 A. We placed him, if I'm not mistaken -- gosh, I 4 can't recall the series, but I know that he served for a 5 while at , the , and he served there 6 until a priest who was familiar with the people from 7 informed me that some of the people were saying he 8 was too close to the children. I asked him to inquire if 9 there was any allegations of sexual impropriety, and he 10 said he had already done that, that there was no 11 molestation, but they didn't like his actions. 12 And so the from that felt 13 that his approach, apparently, to the children, as well as 14 to the people was unacceptable. But there was no 15 incidents. 16 Q. Who was that priest? 17 A. I believe the priest was Father . 18 Q. Did you remove him from because of those 19 complaints? 20 A. Immediately. 21 Q. And then what did you do with him? 22 A. I gave him no assignment for a while because of 23 that, and I notified the staff of the Servants of the 24 Paraclete. They asked him to be in contact with the 25 therapist that they had recommended, and they continued Page 329 1 their contact with him and therapy. 2 Q. Do you know who the therapist was? 3 A. I think it was a Dr. . 4 Q. And then did you come to give him a parish 5 assignment? 6 A. No, he was not given a parish assignment. He 7 was helping at as an out-chaplain -- as 8 an assistant chaplain, and he was in residence at 9 parish in Albuquerque. 10 Q. Did there come a time when he was also in 11 residence at parish in Albuquerque? 12 A. I can't recall. If you have that curriculum 13 vitae or any other information, please help me out. 14 Q. Did there come a time when you assigned him to 15 work at ? 16 A. Yes, I think he was an associate at . 17 Again, I don't recall the sequence of those assignments. 18 I wish I could offer you more accurate information. My 19 memory says that he did serve at . I don't know 20 for what length of time. 21 22 23 24 25 Page 330 1 2 3 Q. Were there any allegations, that you recall, 4 about Father sexually molesting 5 children at parish? 6 A. There is something in the back of my mind. I 7 can't recall it, Mr. Pasternack. But I believe that there 8 was some form of allegation there, but I'm not certain 9 about that. I wish I could see any documentation on that. 10 I just -- I believe there was some allegation, but I can't 11 recall any details at this time. 12 Q. Did you ever come to learn whether Father 13 had sexually molested, while at 14 , a boy named , 15 16 A. No, no allegation like that had been brought to 17 my attention. 18 Q. A boy named , the son of , a 19 deacon and a person who has done legal services for the 20 Archdiocese of Santa Fe? 21 A. No. I know , and he never 22 mentioned a thing to me. 23 Q. ? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. ? Page 331 1 A. I know the name, but I don't associate 2 that again with Father. 3 Q. How was it, Archbishop, that he would be accused 4 of molesting someone at , and then you think perhaps 5 accused of molesting someone at and goes to 6 Paraclete and back, but he is continued to allowed to 7 serve; in fact, to this day is a priest of the 8 Archdiocese? 9 A. He's a priest. He's serving at 10 . We placed him in the Servants of the Paraclete 11 and for his rehabilitation or correction, whatever type of 12 therapy was necessary for him. He completed their 13 program. In fact, as I mentioned, was sent back for a 14 second program, continued to be monitored by his therapist 15 or his psychiatrist. And I felt that as long as he had 16 this monitoring and the training or the therapeutic help 17 that he needed, that he could serve well. But there had 18 to be a limit to that, as well. 19 Q. Do you feel that you were given any assurances 20 by Servants of the Paraclete that his sexual behavior 21 would not repeat itself? 22 A. Not by the Servants of the Paraclete. In fact, 23 there were occasions when the Servants of the Paraclete 24 were very severe with him. I can recall one occasion 25 where they mentioned to me, copied me with a letter to Page 332 1 him, that he had not seen his therapist for two or three 2 months, and they reminded him that this was a severe 3 infraction of their guideline and that he had to see him 4 immediately. 5 I can recall I conducted a meeting in my office with 6 him and with the therapist regarding that. And at that 7 time, he told the therapist that he had not felt 8 comfortable with him. 9 And the therapist said, "Fine, then we'll have 10 another therapist for you. But you have to continue to 11 see him regularly." And at that time, Dr. became 12 his therapist. 13 Q. Who was the therapist before ? 14 A. I believe it was Dr. or -- yes, 15 , I believe it was. 16 Q. Who selected the therapist for , 17 Paraclete or the Archdiocese? 18 A. Well, I don't know therapists, and so I could 19 not select one. I never knew of Dr. . I would 20 depend upon the recommendation of a professional 21 therapist, and apparently the name Dr. -- some of the 22 therapists, like Dr. -- I think is his correct 23 name. I may be off a bit. But he had been working with 24 the Servants of the Paraclete for a number of years, and I 25 believe it was he who must have recommended Dr. . Page 333 1 Q. Do you mean ? 2 A. , I'm sorry. I was close. That's what 3 happens at the end of a day. Dr. was the 4 psychiatrist in question. 5 Q. Do you recall ever getting any assurances from 6 either or that was fit to resume 7 parochial duties? 8 A. Not from Dr. . Dr. was very 9 tough, very strict, demanded a lot of Father , 10 which was good. 11 I can recall one assurance from Dr. that he 12 felt that after one -- an incident that occurred, although 13 there was no sexual molestation, the situation appeared 14 bad. 15 It was a situation that transpired when Father 16 was chaplain at the 17 Hospital, but it's the psychiatric areA. And he was 18 caring for that unit. He wanted to make a trip back to 19 his relatives back in northeastern part of the country, 20 and in fact invited one of the security guards whom he had 21 known to accompany him, and they drove back there. 22 As I understand it from the testimony given to us, 23 Father apparently made some overtures toward him, in word. 24 And the young officer or the young man told him that he 25 was leaving the room, and in fact, went down and called Page 334 1 his folks, that he was going to terminate the trip with 2 him because of this, and did, in fact, leave. So that 3 nothing occurred. 4 After they returned, then he explained what had 5 happened. Father admitted the action or impropriety, and 6 he was again then confronted with his therapist and had to 7 go into care under Dr. . 8 At the conclusion of that, Dr. mentioned 9 that he felt that this was not a serious infraction of his 10 therapeutic recovery and could serve in a chaplaincy 11 capacity. 12 Q. With the recurrence of the episodes with Father 13 , was it not within your prerogative 14 as Archbishop to simply remove his faculties and say 15 goodbye? 16 A. Yes, and this was the threat that was made to 17 him, if you want to call it a threat, that if there were 18 any instances of any type of allegations against him 19 anymore, that he would cease to serve as a priest, and I 20 would take processes towards removing him from the 21 priesthood totally. 22 Q. Did you ever ask him if he had had any other 23 victims? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Page 335 Page 336

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