Volume 6 – Volume 2 of Part 2 Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez October 4, 1994 • Volume 1 – January 12, 1994 • Volume 2 – January 13, 1994 • Volume 3 – January 14, 1994 • Volume 4 – January 15, 1994 • Volume 5 – October 3, 1994 • Volume 6 – October 4, 1994 • Volume 7 – October 5, 1994 • Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994 https://www.abqjournal.com/news/arch/2archdep3-20.htm 989 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE 22 ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico Corporation, et al., 23 Defendants. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 990 1 DEPOSITION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 2 VOLUME VI 3 October 4, 1994 4 9:10 a.m. 5 5625 Isleta Boulevard, S.W. 6 Albuquerque, New Mexico 7 PURSUANT TO THE NEW MEXICO RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE this deposition was: 8 TAKEN BY: STEPHEN E. TINKLER 9 ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS 10 REPORTED BY: DEBORAH O'BINE, RPR, NM CCR #63 Cumbre Court Reporting 11 117 N. Guadalupe Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 12 13 A P P E A R A N C E S 14 For the Plaintiffs: 15 STEPHEN E. TINKLER MERIT BENNETT 16 Attorneys at Law 425 Sandoval Street 17 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 18 REESE, MATHEY & SCHOFIELD P.O. Box 1060 19 Green River, Wyoming 82935 BY: ROBERT J. REESE, ESQ. 20 21 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 22 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN P.O. Box 11648 23 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY, ESQ. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 991 1 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 2 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. P.O. Drawer AA 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH, ESQ. 4 5 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 6 EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A. P.O. Box 35670 7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5670 BY: PETER S. KIERST, ESQ. 8 9 For the Defendant Archbishop: 10 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 11 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM, ESQ. 12 13 For the Defendant Servants: 14 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. P.O. Box 25687 15 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 BY: ALAN K. KONRAD, ESQ. 16 17 For the Defendant Lovelace Institutes: 18 RODEY, DICKASON, SLOAN, AKIN & ROBB, P.A. P.O. Box 1888 19 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 BY: TRAVIS R. COLLIER, ESQ. 20 21 For the Defendants Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family: 22 MODRALL, SPERLING, ROEHL, HARRIS & SISK, P.A. 23 P.O. Box 2168 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-2168 24 BY: KENNETH L. HARRIGAN, ESQ. 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 992 1 For the Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese: 2 GUEBERT & YEOMANS, P.C. 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 BY: RICHARD D. YEOMANS, ESQ. 4 5 Also Present: 6 JERRY GOFFE 7 8 9 I N D E X 10 PAGE 11 EXAMINATION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 12 By Mr. Tinkler 998 13 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 1190 14 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 1191 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 993 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 994 1 EXHIBIT FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 995 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 996 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 997 1 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, 2 after having been previously sworn under oath, was 3 questioned and testified further as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. TINKLER: 6 Q. Good morning, Archbishop. 7 A. Good morning. 8 Q. I'm going to hand you what's marked, we 9 were getting ready to do this when we finished 10 yesterday, Exhibit 25, and can you look at that? 11 It's a letter dated January 19, I think, 1993, from 12 you to Sabine Griego? 13 A. (Witness referred to document.) 14 Q. Have you reviewed the exhibit? 15 A. I have. 16 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 17 surrounding your sending that letter? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. At the time that you wrote that letter in 20 January of '93, it's basically -- that letter is you 21 granting him a leave of absence; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Had new or additional allegations about 24 Sabine Griego surfaced as of January 19, 1993? 25 A. No, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 998 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the form of 2 the question. "New" or "additional" is not defined. 3 New or additional to what? 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The -- 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. So as of the date you wrote that letter 7 granting him a leave of absence, you were still under 8 your own belief that there was only one instance of 9 impropriety? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And you'd had no conversations with Sabine 12 Griego that would lead you to believe otherwise at 13 that point? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did there come a point in time that you 16 learned that there were other victims or alleged 17 victims of Sabine Griego? 18 A. Only at a recent time this year. I think 19 perhaps on one occasion, speaking with my attorney, 20 he had mentioned -- 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You don't need to go 22 through what we may have discussed. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You don't need to tell 24 me what your attorney told you. 25 A. Okay. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 999 1 Q. You can finish your answer, but you don't 2 need to tell me what your attorney told you. 3 A. Just on one occasion, speaking with my 4 attorney. 5 Q. And so the only knowledge you have about 6 additional allegations against Sabine Griego, you 7 obtained after you had left the diocese? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What did you think when you heard that? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 11 Attorney-client privilege. 12 MR. TINKLER: "What did you think"? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: His reactions to 14 conversations with his attorney are likewise 15 privileged, and I'll instruct him not to answer. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you thought at all 17 since then at any time about Sabine Griego and the 18 fact that he may have harmed other victims? 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection in terms of 20 relevancy. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Go ahead. 22 A. I have thought about Father Sabine Griego, 23 as I've thought about other priests as well. I am 24 saddened by others who have been harmed in any way, 25 or at least the allegations are made. I am saddened CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1000 1 that priests have been, in a sense, wounded in 2 themselves to the point where they have possibly 3 committed acts of this nature. It just caused me to 4 be sad. 5 Q. And you felt sad for both the priest and 6 the victims; is that right? 7 A. Absolutely. I am learning more now than I 8 have known before of the people who are harmed. 9 Q. You mean you're learning more about the 10 extent of the harm that can occur? 11 A. Certainly more than I knew before. 12 Q. And I believe that you've already 13 testified that you did know before there was harm; 14 you just didn't know the extent; is that correct? 15 A. That's close. I don't think we can 16 describe it totally. A person's feelings you can't 17 ever put down in words. 18 Q. But let's go back to when you've indicated 19 that you first heard that there was an allegation 20 that any priest in your diocese had abused a child, 21 and I believe that was in 1981 with Father Sigler; is 22 that correct? That's what you've testified to. 23 A. Yes, I believe that's the date and the 24 occasion. 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1002 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 instructions he might receive from his own ordinary. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1004 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. Back in 1981 when you heard that Father 10 Sigler had sexually abused young children, without 11 regard to whether he was a pedophile or not, when did 12 you start to realize there may be more victims than 13 the ones you heard about? 14 A. The pastor, Father Hunt, was the one who 15 brought the allegations to my attention. They were 16 more than one. I don't recall at this moment what 17 the number was. And Father Hunt was a man who had 18 taken studies in psychology and certainly was more 19 aware of this type of action than I was. 20 And I believe it was his own suggestion, 21 and I agreed with that, that he would continue to see 22 if there were any other victims or young boys 23 involved, and that he would visit the homes of these 24 boys for us to talk with the families. And I thought 25 that was the proper pastoral procedure for that sort CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1005 1 of thing. 2 Q. And, to your knowledge, that was done by 3 Father Hunt; is that correct? 4 A. Yes, to my knowledge that was done. 5 Q. At the same time, did the thought cross 6 your mind that Father Sigler has been in our diocese 7 since 1970, and that there might be victims in 8 previous parishes? 9 A. No, sir, it did not cross my mind. 10 Q. Did you talk to Father Hunt about that? 11 A. No, sir, I did not. 12 Q. And is that why you did not initiate any 13 investigation into the earlier parishes where Father 14 Sigler served? 15 A. I would have to assume so. 16 Q. Now, you've indicated that you never heard 17 of the word "pedophile" until the bishops' conference 18 in 1985; is that correct? 19 A. That's when it made an impression on me, 20 certainly. 21 Q. What did you call this kind of conduct 22 before that? 23 A. Misconduct. I think it was commonly 24 referred to as being with young boys, touching young 25 boys, playing around with boys. I think this was the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1006 1 sort of common language that would be used, but they 2 didn't have a technical term to describe what you 3 call sexual misconduct as pedophilia; at least that 4 was not known to us. 5 Q. So if I'm understanding you, you're saying 6 that if an allegation like that arose prior to you 7 learning the term pedophilia, you would refer to it 8 as messing around with boys? 9 A. Others would refer to it as that. 10 Q. Others would? 11 A. They would come and say, "he's too 12 familiar," "he's too close." These were the 13 expressions that were used. They were not explicit 14 terms as you would find today. 15 Q. Did you yourself use less explicit terms? 16 A. I used the terms that were known to all of 17 us that were commonly used. 18 Q. Such as the ones you've just described? 19 A. Being too familiar with young boys. 20 Q. Have you thought as to why you wouldn't 21 talk explicitly about it? Have you thought about 22 that? 23 A. What do you mean that I would not talk 24 explicitly about it? 25 Q. Well, that you would use other words to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1007 1 describe it that don't really describe it? 2 A. I wasn't aware that there was more to it. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you ever ask, when 20 those allegations were made, did you ever ask the 21 messenger what he meant by "playing around with 22 boys"? 23 A. I don't think I did ask him that. He 24 would have told me whatever he knew, and apparently 25 he felt comfortable with describing the activity or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1008 1 the actions in those terms. 2 Q. And in the context of these questions that 3 we've just been going through, it was Father Hunt 4 that used that type of language? 5 A. Yes. I had mentioned his name previously, 6 Father Hunt. 7 Q. So he told you that Father Sigler at that 8 time had been playing around with boys? 9 A. Um-hm. 10 Q. Or words to that effect? 11 A. Um-hm. 12 Q. Is that "yes"? 13 A. Yes. I'm sorry. 14 Q. Now, prior to 1981, you did know of some 15 allegations regarding LaBresch, Father LaBresch, 16 didn't you? 17 A. I don't know if it was prior to 1981, Mr. 18 Tinkler. If you have a document or something that 19 indicates that, I just don't have a memory recall as 20 to the dates of that, whether it was in '70's or 21 '80's. I tend to believe that it was in the 1980's. 22 Q. Okay. Regardless of the date, was that 23 report to you made in the same kind of language? 24 A. All reports during those years were made 25 in those type of terms, in a sense, veiled terms or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1009 1 polite terms, if you would. I think that the 2 explicit language of description is not something 3 that was common among families or among even maybe 4 professionals at that time, but it is today. I hear 5 it here. I certainly heard it last January. But at 6 that time, that was not the type of language that was 7 used. You didn't even see it in movies. Today you 8 see anything you choose on the screen. 9 Q. When you heard the terms back then, the 10 polite terms, in your mind what did you imagine had 11 happened? 12 A. My -- in my own mind, I thought there had 13 been fondling and this type of external touching or 14 embracing that was certainly out of order. That's 15 what I was imagining. 16 Q. And was that the worst you imagined? 17 A. I can't recall every thought I had, but 18 that was certainly the thoughts that were in my mind. 19 Q. And given those thoughts, did you think 20 that kind of conduct was wrong by the priest? 21 A. I thought that kind of conduct was wrong 22 because the parents felt it was wrong. It was, as 23 far as they were concerned, abusing their children, 24 the privacy of the children, the right to their own 25 bodies, and they were afraid of anyone being close to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1010 1 them, too familiar with them. 2 Q. So because the parents thought it was 3 wrong, you thought it was wrong? 4 A. No. I think the parents certainly 5 indicated it as being wrong for someone outside the 6 family to touch their children, and they expressed a 7 concern about it. 8 Q. What did you think independent of what the 9 parents may have said? Did you think it was wrong? 10 A. Yes, I thought it was wrong. 11 Q. Did you think it was a violation of the 12 vows that the priests take? 13 A. I didn't understand it, how that was 14 taking place, but I thought it was a violation of 15 their own vow, yes. 16 Q. And did you think that it was serious 17 enough to warrant -- just what you imagined I'm 18 talking about -- 19 A. Um-hm. 20 Q. -- was serious enough misconduct to 21 warrant removing a priest from duty around children? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. At the time that these allegations 24 surfaced, what did you think about the child and what 25 was happening to the child? What was your -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1011 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, are we 2 talking generally now about children? 3 MR. TINKLER: Yes. We're talking about 4 1981. 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Not about any specific 6 child? 7 MR. TINKLER: Right, in 1981, when he 8 first heard these allegations. 9 THE WITNESS: What was in my mind, as far 10 as I can recall, was that these children had been 11 offended by the actions of the priest in the sense 12 that he was becoming too familiar with them and 13 frightening them because of it. And they would 14 naturally mention that to their families, and the 15 families would become concerned and mention that to 16 their pastor. This is the normal procedure. 17 I imagine that whatever actions had been 18 alleged had probably occurred because of boys being 19 altar boys and getting to know the priest closely, 20 that's normally how the association begins because 21 they get to know the priest, but that was all that I 22 had in my mind, that they were in fact young boys. I 23 didn't know exactly what ages. I never met the boys; 24 so I did not have an idea of what they were going 25 through themselves and did not have an opportunity to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1012 1 express that to me. They did have that opportunity 2 to express it to the pastor, to Father Hunt. 3 So my own feelings were simply distant 4 because I didn't know them as individuals. I had to 5 consider them as members of our church, members of 6 our families, children whose lives we have to 7 respect. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1013 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1014 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. And when the allegations arose in 1981, 17 why was it that you didn't want to talk to the -- or 18 you didn't talk to the children that were abused? 19 A. I don't think I did not want to. I am 20 glad you corrected that. I have always been open to 21 people. If the people themselves, the families would 22 have asked their pastor, "Can we speak with the 23 Archbishop," I would have gone to their homes or they 24 would have come to my office immediately. 25 I've never refused to speak to anyone. I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1015 1 have always been open, and I think my record stands 2 on that, not only open at my office but available to 3 them in their parishes, in their churches or 4 wherever. I have been present at all public 5 functions, civil as well as religious. And so as far 6 as availability is concerned, I was there. 7 Q. You were available? 8 A. Always. 9 Q. Did you offer your availability to the 10 victims? 11 A. I offered it through their pastor, the one 12 they knew personally and felt close to. 13 Q. And how did you do that? 14 A. Speaking with the pastor at the time and 15 discussing the event that happened, asking the pastor 16 to see that Father Sigler was out of the parish 17 immediately the next day and would report up to Jemez 18 Springs, and that he would visit them, the homes of 19 these families specifically. 20 Q. And did you tell Father Hunt to let the 21 families know that you were available to speak with 22 them? 23 A. I don't know if he said it in so many 24 words, but if they would have asked him, "Can we see 25 the Archbishop," he would have said yes. All of them CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1016 1 do. 2 During my term as Archbishop, I didn't 3 receive in my office just priests or religious. I 4 received hundreds of lay people who would write in, 5 "we would like to see you," or if they wanted to 6 speak by phone, I would answer stacks of phone calls 7 daily. 8 Q. But with respect to this particular 9 incident, did you yourself instruct Father Hunt to 10 offer your availability to the parishioners? 11 A. I cannot recall every word I said or even 12 the total conversation. That's been a good number of 13 years. All of us can forget. But the manner in 14 which I have exercised my priesthood and my office as 15 bishop was clear to all of our priests. And I think 16 this is why they felt free or safe to go to their 17 pastor, knowing that he was going to bring it to me 18 and that they could come to me personally if they 19 chose. 20 Q. When this happened, your first real 21 exposure to the allegations in '81, did this strike 22 you as a serious matter? Were you shocked by it? 23 A. Yes. I was shocked enough to take an 24 action that was a strong action. Within 24 hours of 25 learning of these allegations from the pastor, the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1017 1 man was transferred out of the parish. 2 Q. Now, back to Griego in 1991 -- 3 A. All right. 4 Q. -- when the came to you, you knew a 5 lot more about this type of conduct in 1991; right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What did you think then, you know, when 8 you heard that Father Griego may have committed a 9 sexual abuse on a child? 10 A. Again, I was saddened, as I have mentioned 11 earlier, and hurt for the family because I had a 12 chance to speak to the personally. The boy 13 who has made these allegations, I don't know his 14 name, was not present at that meeting, but the 15 expressed to me their deep concern, the suffering of 16 their daughter, which they felt was a result of 17 sexual misconduct on the part of Father Griego, and 18 that had occurred against their son some ten years 19 before or so. And I was saddened for them, wanted to 20 do the best I could to help them in their need, and, 21 in fact, responded to the requests specifically that 22 they were asking of me. 23 Q. Did you let them know that if the children 24 wanted to speak with you, I guess they were probably 25 now young adults, that you were available to speak CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1018 1 with them? 2 A. They had mentioned that their son was out 3 of town, but they were free. In fact, we agreed that 4 we would meet in the next -- period of time, a short 5 period of time, I don't recall if it was going to be 6 within two weeks or three weeks, but that we would 7 meet again, and that they could call. So we kept in 8 contact this way. 9 Q. Now, in going through Father Griego's 10 personnel file, I think I indicated to you yesterday 11 that before the letter where you sent him to 12 Southdown, there was nothing in the file to indicate 13 any misconduct or any allegations or anything like 14 that. Do you know why is that, was nothing recorded 15 about the allegations? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Is the question why 17 wasn't there anything recorded about the 18 allegations? 19 MR. TINKLER: Right. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that notes were 21 taken during the discussion with the . They 22 were not taken by myself. I did not place any memos 23 simply because I was going to be taking actions, and 24 action is exactly what I took immediately. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, the action that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1019 1 you took was to send Father Griego to Southdown; 2 correct? 3 A. First of all, to have him resign his 4 parish. That is a significant action. 5 Q. Why wouldn't there be a document in the 6 file, a written resignation -- 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. -- if you had him resign? 9 A. He may very well have written one. There 10 may have been a document there. 11 Q. And you don't know why it wouldn't be in 12 this personnel file? 13 A. No. He may have written one. I'm trying 14 to recall right offhand, and that would normally be 15 in his personnel file if in fact he wrote that 16 letter. 17 Q. I'll represent to you that in his 18 personnel file, on 10-17-90 is a document that he 19 signed, acknowledging that he had received a copy of 20 the policy on sexual misconduct of the Archdiocese of 21 Santa Fe. 22 You're familiar with that form 23 (indicated); right? 24 A. Yes, uh-huh. 25 Q. And the next item in this file is him CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1020 1 being sent to Southdown a year later. 2 MS. KENNEDY: And so what is the 3 question? 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And so I'm wondering why 5 there is nothing in the file about what resulted in 6 him going to Southdown? 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you know, 8 Archbishop. 9 THE WITNESS: I can't explain why he 10 didn't put a memo in there except because of the 11 actions. The actions I took all happened within two 12 or three weeks of my meeting with the . 13 They met with me in August, if I'm not 14 mistaken, late August. I confronted Father 15 immediately, and he resigned his parish and said his 16 farewell Mass for the parish. I contacted then 17 Southdown and set up a time for his arrival and gave 18 him those dates, and in fact then he prepared for his 19 trip to Southdown, reported there in October. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And the file does not 21 indicate any correspondence from you or anyone on 22 your behalf regarding the restriction of his 23 faculties until October of the following year. Do 24 you know why you didn't generate any correspondence 25 to memorialize what had happened? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1021 1 A. I just cannot recall why I did not. He 2 was leaving the diocese to Southdown. He would not 3 have the faculties of the diocese because he was 4 going to be gone for at least a period of six 5 months. And whatever would result from his 6 therapeutic treatment at Southdown would then help us 7 determine what his future would be within the 8 Archdiocese, and I could not project that, you know, 9 when he first left. 10 Q. Okay. So when he first left to Southdown, 11 you did not remove his faculties; is that correct? 12 A. No, I didn't say, "You cannot celebrate 13 Mass. You cannot function." He was going to be 14 gone. He was -- he had resigned his parish. He no 15 longer had the parish to function in, and therefore 16 was now on his way, but I did not revoke his 17 faculties as of that period. 18 Q. How is it that one resigns his parish? Is 19 it just I come to you and say, "I resign my parish," 20 or do you typically write a letter to the Archbishop? 21 A. Both ways. We don't always request that 22 they do it in writing. Frequently, it's -- in fact, 23 most frequently it occurs when they are granted 24 another assignment, and they there, instead of 25 resigning from this parish so as to accept a new CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1022 1 assignment, they simply agree to transfer from this 2 parish to another one. In fact, that is a 3 resignation, a verbal resignation. 4 In this instance, in accepting what I had 5 communicated to him and my desire for him to enter 6 into a therapeutic program, it was then a resignation 7 from his parish, a verbal resignation, his approval 8 to abide by my word. 9 I don't recall whether he wrote -- I 10 thought maybe he had written something out as a 11 resignation, but that was not necessary. We have not 12 required that of our priests as a pattern or 13 practice. 14 Q. Then you indicated that you attended 15 Father Griego's exit interview at Southdown? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I'm wondering, how many other exit 18 interviews during your tenure did you attend? 19 MS. KENNEDY: At Southdown? 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) At any institution, any 21 mental institution? 22 A. I would say probably -- and this is just 23 to the best of my recollection, and that's a question 24 you have to go back and think hard about -- I would 25 say three or four. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1023 1 Q. And who were those -- were those three or 2 four also because of sexual allegations that they 3 were in the institution? 4 A. No, sir. One was an alcoholic problem. 5 Another was, oh, personality problem, I would call it 6 personality. Another was concern for sexual 7 activity. 8 Q. And which priest was that? 9 A. That was -- let me try and get his name. 10 I can see his face, but I didn't get his name. 11 Father Martinez. 12 Q. Do you recall his first name? 13 A. Armando. 14 Q. Armando Martinez? And when was that? 15 A. I can't recall. I believe it was probably 16 in the '80's. 17 Q. Do you recall, was it the early '80's or 18 the late '80's? 19 A. Probably closer to the later '80's than 20 the early '80's. 21 Q. And you attended his exit interview? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And where was that at? 24 A. That was at Jemez Springs. 25 Q. Did you return his faculties to him? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1024 1 A. Eventually, yes, on a part-time basis. 2 Q. How do you do that? 3 A. He was asked to serve as a chaplain in a 4 hospital, and it was a part-time work at that 5 hospital. So he was given faculties to anoint the 6 sick, to take communion to people or to hear their 7 confessions if they were so requested. 8 Q. Were there any restrictions on his 9 faculties? 10 A. Well, the restrictions were there only 11 inasmuch as the assignment was for one specific area 12 and one specific hospital. 13 Q. Were the allegations Father Martinez had 14 alleged or had asserted against him, were they 15 involving sexual problems with children? 16 A. One person. 17 Q. One person made a claim or an allegation? 18 A. One person, the family, yes. 19 Q. And that was after the Father Sigler 20 incident? 21 A. Yes, late '80's, as I mentioned. 22 Q. So you've identified three that you 23 remembered. The fourth, was the fourth a sexual 24 problem as well? 25 A. I'm trying to -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1025 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I believe the 2 Archbishop's testimony was three or four, remembering 3 back. 4 MS. KENNEDY: And are you including Father 5 Griego in the three or four? 6 MR. TINKLER: No, it's his answer, not 7 mine. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: His was three or four. 9 If he remembers some others, that's fine. 10 THE WITNESS: I can't recall a specific 11 one. I know that I've spoken with him on the phone 12 but not an exit interview; I couldn't call it an exit 13 interview. So I would have to leave it at three at 14 this point. If that recollection comes to mind, I'll 15 be happy to share that with you. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) With respect to the two, 17 that one was an alcoholic problem, and one was a 18 personality disorder or something like that? 19 A. Yes. 20 MS. KENNEDY: To be correct, he said 21 personality problem. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Problem. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Problem. And that 24 personality problem is your description of the 25 condition; correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1026 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did either of those priests also have 3 claims of sexual abuse against them? 4 A. No, sir, not at all. 5 Q. Is Father Martinez -- when you attended 6 his exit interview, did he make admissions to you 7 regarding the fact that there was more than one 8 victim or wasn't more than one victim involved? Did 9 he make statements to that effect? 10 MS. KENNEDY: Just so the record is 11 straight, since there's more than one Father 12 Martinez, could you -- 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Father Armando 14 Martinez. 15 A. In fact, and I need to correct something 16 here. As I think of it now, it was not an exit 17 interview with him, but it was a visit to him while 18 he was in the therapeutic process. I can recall that 19 now because they were showing me different things 20 that -- forms of therapeutic address that were going 21 to him. And I recall that when he was terminated, 22 the therapy was completed, that I had not been there, 23 but I had visited with him prior to that. 24 Q. And during your visit with him, did he 25 make any statements regarding other victims? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1027 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. So with that correction to your testimony, 3 then, Sabine Griego would have been the only priest 4 accused of sexual misconduct that you attended an 5 exit interview for; is that correct? 6 A. To the best of my recollection. 7 Q. Now, you also indicated yesterday that you 8 had appointed or assigned Father Griego to 9 investigate the Boys' Ranch in 1976, and that you 10 made that assignment because he was a dean; do you 11 recall that? 12 A. That's right, sir, um-hm. 13 Q. How many other deans had you appointed to 14 investigate allegations of physical and sexual abuse 15 by a priest during your tenure? 16 MS. KENNEDY: As of 1976? 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, as of the whole 18 time. 19 A. I think you're mischaracterizing my 20 assignment for Father Griego. I was responding to 21 complaints from the Hacienda de los Muchachos. I was 22 not responding to a specific sexual misconduct 23 allegation. 24 The allegations were regarding the general 25 administration of the place, the relationship of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1028 1 Father Ed Donelan to staff, as well as to the 2 students. His, what seemed to be a very strong or 3 oppressive behavior. And it was with the full thing 4 in mind that I asked Father Griego to go and to visit 5 the center and to speak with the employees and speak 6 with Father and with what students were there or 7 guests, whatever they were called. 8 Q. But among those allegations were 9 allegations of sexual misconduct; isn't that correct, 10 that had been made by various parties? 11 A. It's very possible. I'm trying to recall 12 dates. I just can't get those dates straight. I do 13 not recall any specific allegation or complaint of an 14 individual of having been harmed and making this 15 complaint against Father. The type of communication 16 I received was concerns for the center and Father's 17 behavior towards both staff as well as to students. 18 I believe there was one letter, I don't 19 recall the total contents, that alluded to possible 20 misbehavior in a sexual way. 21 Q. And so you were aware at least there was a 22 complaint to that effect? 23 A. Yes, a concern. 24 Q. And when you assigned Father Griego to -- 25 didn't you assign him to close down Hacienda de los CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1029 1 Muchachos? 2 A. He didn't have the authority to close 3 anything. I closed. And the way I closed it down 4 was not to touch the school. I had to restrict the 5 responsibility of Father Ed Donelan. 6 The school was operated under the 7 authority of the Health and Social Services of the 8 State of New Mexico. They're the ones who licensed 9 the place. I could not close their license down, 10 obviously. They licensed the place to be operated, 11 and they gave a license or permission to Father Ed 12 Donelan. I gave permission or continued to give 13 permission, because I did not start it, he had begun 14 that under my predecessor, but I continued and 15 renewed his permission to remain as its director as 16 long as the state accepted him and as long as the 17 state kept the place open, but I did not have the 18 right to open or to close something that I did not 19 own. 20 Q. Was it your understanding when you 21 assigned Father Griego to go to the school -- 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. -- that it was going to be closed down? 24 A. Not when I sent him there. I sent him 25 there first to find out what in fact was happening so CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1030 1 at least I would be better informed about any 2 eventual decision I may have to make. 3 Q. So you don't believe that you instructed 4 Father Griego to investigate? 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's not his 6 testimony. 7 MR. TINKLER: No, I'm asking. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: His testimony is quite 9 to the contrary. 10 THE WITNESS: I sent him there to find out 11 what he could learn from the people. They had 12 expressed concerns in writing, and I was asking him 13 to go and talk with them to find out what these 14 concerns were and what in fact was taking place. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And when you did give 16 this assignment to Father Griego, did you tell him 17 that there was at least one complaint you knew of 18 regarding possible sexual abuse by Father Donelan? 19 A. I don't recall what I instructed him to do 20 or what I told him to do. That's been a number of 21 years. But I asked him to go there to meet with the 22 people and find out what he could for me. This was 23 his task. 24 Q. And you indicated yesterday that he did a 25 final report or a report for you? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1031 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that correct? 3 A. He did call me, and he shared with me his 4 findings at the boys' home or at least his feelings 5 regarding the administration of the boys' home. And 6 later on, which I can't recall what number of weeks 7 would have passed, I had scheduled a meeting with 8 Father Donelan and wanted to confront him with all of 9 the information that I had and to reach a decision 10 with him there, and I asked Father to give me an 11 outline of what he had shared verbally on the phone. 12 Q. Father Griego? 13 A. Father Griego. 14 (Exhibit 26 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 17 what's been identified as Exhibit 26, which is a 18 letter from Father Griego to yourself, dated April 1, 19 1976. Why don't you read that? 20 A. (Witness referred to document.) 21 Yes, sir. 22 Q. Is Exhibit 26 the letter you were 23 referring to where he was to confirm in writing or 24 outline in writing what you had discussed on the 25 phone? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1032 1 A. I think this is what I'm referring to 2 here, information that I was going to need when I 3 would meet with Father Ed Donelan, because I felt at 4 that time, as far as I knew, I was going to take a 5 strong stand and remove his permission to continue as 6 its director, and I needed to have what information 7 Father had gathered, and this refers to these three 8 points. That's it. 9 Q. So you think this was, this letter is 10 probably the report you were referring to or the 11 outline you were referring to? 12 A. I thought I had an outline in mind that 13 would be separate from this, but this is what I 14 recall dealing with him so that I could confront 15 Father Ed Donelan. 16 He made this report of his own findings, 17 as I mentioned to you, by phone. He did not come in 18 to see me. That, together with the concerns, the 19 complaints, and a phone call from HSSD -- not HSSD 20 but rather H -- what is it, Health and Social 21 Services from the state, led me to believe that 22 closure was the proper way to move. 23 Q. And in the phone conversation you had with 24 Father Griego where he reported his findings to you, 25 do you recall that phone conversation? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1033 1 A. The phone conversation with Father Griego 2 -- actually, the only thing that stuck in my mind 3 was -- well, there's two things; that some of the 4 employees there seemed to be very faithful to him, to 5 Father Ed Donelan, that they had a great trust in 6 him, and other members of the staff who were there 7 felt that he had become so oppressive, so possessive, 8 perhaps is the word, of the youth, not allowing them 9 to go out or to do the things that perhaps they were 10 allowed to do but were restricting their activity, 11 they were really concerned about himself, about 12 Father Ed's actions. 13 And there was a definite division in the 14 employees regarding their feelings towards Father Ed, 15 whether he should be confronted or corrected or 16 whether he should be supported. That I can recall, 17 his concern. I do not recall anything of a sexual 18 nature in his report to me. 19 Q. Do you recall whether Father Griego 20 interviewed any of the children at the Boys' Ranch? 21 A. No, sir, I don't recall. I asked him to 22 speak with people at the ranch, but I don't recall if 23 he spoke with the boys. I'm not even certain whether 24 Father Ed would allow that. Perhaps he did. Perhaps 25 he had freedom and access to talk to everyone. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1034 1 Q. But you don't really know? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Did Father Griego do any further work on 4 this particular assignment after Exhibit 26? 5 A. I invited Father Griego, since he was the 6 dean of that area and had in fact gone to visit the 7 boys' home, to be present at my meeting with Father 8 Ed Donelan at that scheduled date, the end of March, 9 1976. 10 Q. And did he attend? 11 A. Yes, he did. He was present. 12 Q. Did you appoint Father Griego to help 13 Father Ed close the school or the Boys' Ranch? 14 A. Yes. I have a recollection that I asked 15 him to -- yeah, to follow up. The decision was made 16 at this meeting, incidentally --- it was not a 17 pleasant meeting. In fact, if I recall correctly, I 18 think Father had said he was going to bring his 19 attorneys to the meeting, but to the best of my 20 recollection, they were not present. There were just 21 the three of us. 22 I made the decision. He did not accept it 23 gracefully, asked permission for time to help find 24 some alternative support for a husband and wife who 25 were cooks at the Hacienda, since they had been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1035 1 working with him for a number of years. Apparently 2 they had been there, I don't know how long the 3 Hacienda was there. 4 He was very concerned about them, 5 concerned about -- the equipment that was present in 6 the buildings, apparently, was owned by the 7 corporation. It was a corporation, and I don't know 8 who were members of that corporation, but they were 9 going to have to do something with the buildings and 10 with the equipment, the beds and kitchen equipment, 11 etc. 12 And I asked Father Griego to help him in 13 any way that he could, if he asked for it, in seeing 14 that it was properly closed. 15 Q. During the period of time that the school 16 was being closed or not the school, the ranch, was 17 being closed, did other allegations, new allegations 18 arise regarding possible sexual misconduct by Father 19 Donelan? 20 A. No, sir. I never had any specific 21 allegations from the beginning, and I certainly 22 didn't have any other allegations that came up after 23 that. 24 Q. Now, Father Griego was assigned to do that 25 particular job because he was the dean of the area; CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1036 1 correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And my original question was, did you ever 4 assign similar type -- make similar assignments to 5 other deans? 6 MS. KENNEDY: To shut down other boys' 7 ranches? 8 MR. TINKLER: No, to investigate the 9 complaints of parishioners. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Any complaints of 12 parishioners? 13 MR. TINKLER: Any complaints of 14 parishioners. 15 THE WITNESS; Yes. My deans assist me in 16 that category from time to time. I would get letters 17 concerning a priest, that he is using foul language 18 from the pulpit or abusing the people this way with 19 whatever he is preaching, and I will ask the dean to 20 speak with him, find out what's going on and what's 21 causing him to change his personality. I had never 22 heard complaints about him before, what's happening 23 to him now. 24 Sometimes a parish council will disagree 25 with their pastor over some decision. A parish CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1037 1 council is a group of lay people that assist the 2 pastor in making decisions for the parish, and once 3 there is disagreement over some event, it has a 4 tendency of ballooning, and not only ballooning but 5 causing divisions within the parish, those who favor 6 this and those who favor that. 7 Division is the last thing that I would 8 want in any parish. I would ask the dean on 9 occasions such as those to go and meet with the 10 parish council, to meet with the pastor, and find out 11 what the situations were. 12 Q. Was there any point in time during your 13 tenure as Archbishop where you did appoint a dean to 14 investigate allegations of sexual misconduct by a 15 priest? 16 A. I can't recall anything in specific. I 17 recall certainly Father Hunt, since he had brought 18 allegations to me. 19 Q. Was he a dean -- 20 A. Let me finish. He was coming to me in his 21 capacity as pastor, and I don't even recall whether 22 he was dean or not, but I don't recall asking any 23 dean to investigate something regarding sexual 24 misconduct. 25 Q. The last, I think Exhibit 25 was the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1038 1 letter that you wrote to Father Griego giving him 2 leave of absence in January of '93. Was that leave 3 of absence with pay? 4 A. Yes, sir. Whenever we give a person a 5 leave of absence, especially if it's medical leave, 6 we try to continue their salary because we feel that 7 they will be incurring medical expenses. If they ask 8 for a leave of absence to do studies on their own, 9 then that would be a different situation. Each 10 situation is handled independently, although we try 11 to have some general policy for anyone who might ask 12 for a leave of absence. 13 Q. In January of 1992, when you granted 14 Father Griego the leave of absence, was that really 15 for medical reasons? 16 A. Going to a therapeutic center? I think 17 that is medical. I think the circumstances caused 18 that certainly are not the highest caliber, but it 19 certainly was for medical purposes. 20 Q. But this letter was in 1993, a year after 21 he attended Southdown. 22 A. Right. Well, you just referred to '92 so 23 I responded to that. 24 Q. I'm sorry, '93. 25 A. '93, he was asking time to go home to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1039 1 spend with his mother, to continue to see the 2 gentleman who was designated to him by Southdown as a 3 liaison with them -- I don't recall the gentleman's 4 name, and to take time -- he just was expressing a 5 need for that time away from his assignment at the 6 hospital. 7 I put in here a year, but in our 8 discussion, he was indicating that it would probably 9 just take a few months, and he would settle down, 10 although I included a year's time. 11 Q. So you gave him a year even though he 12 wasn't actually taking a real medical leave of 13 absence, was he? 14 A. Well, he wasn't going to a hospital, but 15 he was going to keep in contact with the therapists. 16 Q. Do you know if Father Griego received pay 17 throughout 1993 pursuant to this leave of absence? 18 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. Calls 19 for speculation on the part of this witness as to 20 what would have occurred after his departure from the 21 Archdiocese in the spring of '93. 22 THE WITNESS: I do not know that, no. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And when is the last 24 time you spoke to Sabine Griego? 25 A. The time he said good-bye at the leave of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1040 1 absence, which would have been January '93. 2 Q. So you've had no conversations with him 3 since then? 4 A. None whatsoever. 5 Q. Now, you left about approximately three 6 months after you wrote this letter, left the diocese? 7 A. Right. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You're talking about 9 Exhibit No. 25? 10 MR. TINKLER: Yes, Exhibit 25. 11 Q. When you left, did you confer with 12 Archbishop -- or Bishop Sheehan regarding the 13 transition? 14 A. No, sir, I didn't. The circumstances of 15 my leaving, I had not intended to be gone on any kind 16 of a permanent basis. I, in fact, had clothing only 17 for a week. This has extended a little bit beyond 18 that. 19 In any event, Father Ron Wolf, the 20 Chancellor, was a man who was handling all such 21 things of this nature, was aware of them, as I was, 22 and therefore would be the person to make the 23 administrator, the new administrator for the 24 Archdiocese, who at that time was Bishop Sheehan, he 25 was named to do that, he'd be able to bring all of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1041 1 this and other issues to his attention. 2 MR. TINKLER: This might be a good time 3 for a break. 4 MS. KENNEDY: Are you finished with this 5 subject? 6 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 7 (A recess was taken.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, when did you 9 first meet Father Robert Smith? 10 A. The first recollection that I have of 11 meeting him and communicating with him was after I 12 was ordained the Archbishop. Even though we had both 13 served as priests in the Archdiocese, I had been here 14 since 1960, I don't recall when he was ordained, but 15 I don't recall having met him prior to that time when 16 I was the Archbishop. That would have been in 1974. 17 Q. And do you recall the circumstances 18 surrounding that meeting? Was it just because you 19 were the Archbishop? 20 A. Yeah, I probably greeted him without 21 knowing who he was at general gatherings. The 22 occasion that sticks in my mind, for whatever it's 23 worth, was his informing me that he was going on 24 vacation. And I guess I recall that because the 25 injury that occurred to him and our subsequent CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1042 1 concern about him, but that was the occasion that I 2 can recall him, or at least the first time that I can 3 recall him. 4 I guess the years when I was teaching in a 5 high school, you just didn't have any contact with 6 most of the brothers in their parish work because 7 you're so focused in high school work. 8 Q. Is it fair to say that when you did first 9 meet Father Smith, that you had no knowledge about 10 his history at all, his personal history? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And you didn't know when he was ordained? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Or when he became a deacon? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Or where he went to seminary? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you're 19 saying it's when he wanted a leave of absence or a 20 vacation or something like that is when you really 21 first remember talking to him? 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The testimony is 23 vacation. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Vacation? 25 A. Yes, vacation. There's a difference. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1043 1 Q. In your mind, what is the difference, 2 vacation versus leave of absence? 3 A. Vacation, he's simply taking two weeks off 4 from his job. 5 Q. And it's that circumstance you remember? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And I think you recall it being in 1974; 8 is that correct? 9 A. Well, I was ordained in 1974, in July, and 10 it was after that time that I had contact with him. 11 And vacation time normally occurs for these men in 12 the summer. So it may have been in the summer of '75 13 that I may have had that conversation or concern 14 about him. 15 Q. Incidentally, I asked you yesterday if you 16 had reviewed his file during the course of your 17 tenure as Archbishop, and you indicated you had not? 18 A. I had not. 19 Q. Is that correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Have you reviewed his file in preparation 22 for this deposition? 23 A. No, sir, I've not seen anything. 24 (Exhibit 27 was marked for 25 identification.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1044 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 2 what's been marked as Exhibit 27, which is a letter 3 dated December the 16th, 1974, from you to Father 4 Smith. Would you review that? 5 A. (Witness referred to document.) 6 Q. Does this letter refresh your memory at 7 all about your first contact with Father Smith? 8 A. It tells me that my contact with him then 9 occurred in the summer of 1974, shortly after my 10 ordination, and that he had taken his vacation at 11 that time, and apparently at that occasion he had his 12 accident and was hospitalized, and then his delay in 13 returning to the Archdiocese because of his own 14 physical condition, and then after that this letter. 15 Q. This letter, because he was unable to 16 continue being a priest while he was recovering; is 17 that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall, did you have anything to do 20 with his placement during this period of his leave of 21 absence? 22 A. Yes. We discuss with the individual, and 23 we try to find an appropriate place, a rectory, where 24 they have room. Normally, that's our procedure, if 25 the leave of absence is going to keep him in the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1045 1 area, but he simply is on the mend, in other words, 2 healing that way. 3 So I don't recall speaking to Father 4 Bruckner about that, but my letter indicates that he 5 has been most gracious in inviting him; so he must 6 have communicated with me about that. 7 Q. About Father Smith staying with him during 8 the period of recuperation? 9 A. Yes, agreeing to that, um-hm. 10 Q. Do you recall talking to Father Smith 11 about that? 12 A. I don't recall speaking to him about it. 13 That would be normal procedure. It was him that we 14 were concerned about. 15 Q. Do you remember back during that time when 16 he first went on vacation, he got injured, and then 17 he asked for the leave of absence, during that period 18 of time, did you have any personal conversations with 19 Father Smith? 20 A. I can't recall them. I would have to say 21 I did not because I simply can't recall them, but, on 22 the other hand, I have to say that he had come back 23 ill; so I had to at least find out how he was doing. 24 Q. So you probably at least found out his 25 current health status? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1046 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall during this period of time 3 prior to December of '74, he discussed any kind of 4 emotional problems that he had? 5 A. I don't recall any discussion of that 6 nature. 7 Q. When you became the Archbishop, which was 8 approximately six months before this letter we just 9 talked about, you indicated that the files, the 10 personnel files, were all located in your office; is 11 that correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And during your entire tenure as 14 Archbishop, do you ever recall going for a file and 15 finding there to be no file for a particular priest? 16 A. No, I don't recall any instance like 17 that. No. 18 Q. Is it at least your own -- to the best of 19 your knowledge, you had a complete file on each 20 priest within your diocese? 21 A. The word "complete" -- 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 23 THE WITNESS: The word "complete" is a 24 relative term. I don't know what all we would have 25 in the file. Essential documents pertaining to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1047 1 man, his assignments and so forth; at least I would 2 hope they would be there. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall during 4 your tenure as Archbishop and while Father Smith was 5 a priest, whether you added any substantial number of 6 documents to his file or whether it really just 7 seemed like it was a normally handled file, if you 8 know? 9 A. I can't recall there being anything 10 extraordinary. I think any essential communication 11 such as the document you just noted would have been 12 put in there because it was a grant of permission for 13 something special. 14 Q. Now, what do you recall next happening 15 after Father Smith left to recuperate? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In his life? 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, with respect to 18 Father Smith, your contact with Father Smith? 19 A. I recall that he continued to have, I 20 guess, difficulty himself in recuperating to a point 21 where he would want to reenter the ministry in our 22 Archdiocese with an assignment. I think there was a 23 reluctance on his part. 24 I can't -- it's fuzzy, but at some point, 25 I don't know whether it was at this time or a later CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1048 1 time, but at some point in his ministry, which is 2 perhaps at this time, he expressed a -- I don't know 3 whether it was a discontent in working with the 4 Archdiocese or maybe a lack of confidence, I don't 5 know, but he was asking for permission to seek a 6 religious order, I believe. And way in the back of 7 my mind, I think he went to maybe two or three 8 different religious communities to see if he would 9 enjoy them or feel more comfortable with them and 10 eventually want to be incardinated in them. 11 And even, I think, he may have gone to 12 another diocese because I don't even remember where 13 he was from, but maybe he had gone back to his home 14 diocese to see if he would feel -- but I remember he 15 was just very hesitant and reluctant to take an 16 assignment. And I don't know why, just -- 17 Q. Do you not know why because you don't 18 remember or because you didn't ask him? 19 A. I don't think he could answer it. He just 20 felt a discontent, as I said, either a discontent 21 with the Archdiocese or a very strong desire to seek 22 admission in some other religious community. 23 Q. Do you recall that within about three or 24 four months of him leaving -- not leaving but going 25 on a leave of absence and staying in Los Alamos, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1049 1 hearing a concern of others about his emotional 2 condition? 3 A. I'm sure that concern for him was voiced 4 because he was not in a position, given an assignment 5 in the Archdiocese. He was on a leave of absence 6 because of his own physical condition. I don't 7 recall any specific instance of that nature, but 8 normally when someone is ill, people ask how is 9 Father so-and-so. That's just normal procedure. 10 (Exhibit 28 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you what's 13 marked as Deposition 28, and it's a letter from Dr. 14 Honsinger, dated March the 21st, 1985. Why don't you 15 review that? 16 MS. KENNEDY: '85? 17 THE WITNESS: '75. 18 MR. TINKLER: I'm sorry, '75. 19 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 20 document.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed 22 Exhibit 28? 23 A. Yes, I have. 24 Q. Did you notice the paragraph, the last 25 paragraph on the first page regarding Dr. Honsinger's CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1050 1 concern about Father Smith's emotional condition? 2 A. Yes. I notice the first paragraph, as 3 well, in which he outlines some very severe physical 4 conditions regarding the man, his cardiovascular 5 condition, myocardial -- 6 Q. I think the response I was trying to deal 7 with was the emotional aspect. Do you recall that 8 now? 9 A. I do not recall this specifically, you 10 know, back then. I didn't even recall the first 11 paragraph. What my recollection is is that he was a 12 sick man, I do recall his diabetes, and that he 13 seemed to be depressed. That's another thing that 14 was part of his condition. But I didn't recall the 15 specifics that the physician outlined in this 16 letter. It's very specific. 17 Q. Do you recall hearing from the doctor that 18 he didn't believe that Father Smith was addicted to 19 narcotics, but he felt that he enjoyed the sense of 20 well-being and detachment from reality that they 21 afforded him? 22 A. I didn't recall that. I would not have 23 recalled that at this time at all, no. 24 Q. And that even his Albuquerque physicians 25 were going to be medicating him without narcotics. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1051 1 Do you recall that subject? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Do you recall what you did next with 4 Father Smith as far as assignments? 5 A. The physician had indicated the altitude 6 as possibly being a difficulty for him, and he was 7 trying to treat him to allow him to stay in the Los 8 Alamos area. I believe that he was given permission 9 to go to another parish at a lower altitude. In 10 fact, what does this doctor say, "I have recently 11 discussed this with his Albuquerque physicians." 12 Maybe we gave him -- I just don't recall 13 what our action was, but I think I would have taken 14 action to remove him from an altitude that would have 15 been harmful to his physical condition. 16 Q. Isn't it true that at the time that this 17 letter was sent, he was still on leave of absence? 18 A. Oh, yes. 19 Q. He wasn't doing ministry? 20 A. I have to assume that because of -- well, 21 I don't know. This is -- well, this is March. 22 March, I would have to assume he was on leave of 23 absence. He was given leave of absence at the end of 24 December, and this was three months later. So I 25 would assume he was still on leave of absence. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1052 1 Q. Do you recall during this time frame, 2 March, April, 1975, sharing any information regarding 3 Father Smith with the Personnel Board? 4 A. I don't recall sharing the information 5 with the Personnel Board, no. 6 Q. If you were going to make an assignment or 7 a reassignment of him, would it have been standard 8 for you to do that? 9 A. He was not going to be given an 10 assignment, a canonical assignment as pastor or 11 associate pastor. He was going to be given 12 permission to live in a rectory other than Los 13 Alamos. That could have been discussed at the 14 Personnel Board to try to seek a rectory, or it may 15 very well have been handled by the Chancellor of the 16 diocese, because it didn't involve a canonical 17 assignment. 18 Q. As of the date of this Exhibit 28, is it 19 fair to say that you still had no real personal 20 knowledge about Father Smith's history? 21 A. "History" meaning? 22 Q. Personal and physical and mental and all, 23 a complete history? 24 A. No. Like I said, I had met him as a 25 person, as an individual, only on the occasion of his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1053 1 accident and the subsequent illness that we've 2 discussed. 3 Q. And you do recall that besides the 4 physical illness that he did have some emotional 5 problems? 6 A. As mentioned here, depression, um-hm. 7 Q. Do you recall whether it concerned you at 8 all about putting him back in a parish with emotional 9 problems? 10 A. If concerned me about putting him back in 11 a parish with any kind of physical or emotional 12 problems. And for that reason he was on this leave 13 of absence at this time and was under the care of 14 physicians for that purpose. 15 (Exhibit 29 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 18 what's marked as 29, Exhibit 29, which is a letter 19 from you to Father Smith dated April 11, 1975. Why 20 don't you review it? 21 A. (Witness referred to document.) 22 Q. Have you reviewed the exhibit? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to the 25 next action you took with respect to Father Smith? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1054 1 A. It indicates that this was the action I 2 took. I have no recollection of having done that, 3 but I did do that. It was his next assignment to 4 Nativity parish in Alameda, to assist the pastor 5 there, in accordance with the doctor's instructions. 6 Q. And this was an assignment to take him off 7 his leave of absence and put him back into the 8 ministry; isn't that correct? 9 A. In effect, it would do that, but it would 10 still be limited according to the instructions of the 11 physicians. And with that phrase in there, I must 12 have had some kind of instruction from the physicians 13 in reference to that assignment. 14 Q. At this point in time, though, you don't 15 recall any such instructions; is that correct? 16 A. No, sir, I do not. 17 Q. And your letter does indicate that this 18 new work assignment for him was going to be 19 challenging for him; correct? 20 A. With his talents, uh-huh. Nativity is not 21 a large parish. It is one of the smallest parishes 22 in Albuquerque. It has approximately 300 to 400 23 families. Your parishes in the other areas have 24 3,000 to 4,000 families. So assigning a priest as an 25 associate with a pastor in a small parish would have CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1055 1 given him some work but would not have been 2 overdemanding. That probably was one reason why we 3 assigned him to that particular parish. 4 Q. At this point in time, when you had been 5 notified by the doctor that he had severe -- or 6 strike that -- he had emotional problems, and you 7 knew of physical problems, did it cross your mind to 8 maybe investigate his history, since you didn't know 9 anything about him? 10 A. No, sir, it did not. 11 Q. Is it common for a priest to have 12 emotional problems and be in an active ministry, back 13 at that time was it common? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the word 15 "common." What do you mean, 50 percent? 25 percent? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Common in the 17 Archdiocese? 18 A. I think you're assuming that the emotional 19 problem that he had must have been quite severe. You 20 do not know that. I do not recall that. The doctors 21 would have to indicate that. 22 He was under the care of the physicians in 23 directing him, and I have to assume in directing me. 24 I would not have taken independent action without 25 consultation with his physicians. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1056 1 Q. The question was, was it common in 1975, 2 in the spring of 1975, for priests to be placed in 3 the ministry who were suffering from an emotional 4 condition, without regard to its severity? I'm just 5 using that phrase, an "emotional condition." 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the word 7 "common." It's undefined. It's a vague and 8 ambiguous question. 9 THE WITNESS: I guess my question, sir, is 10 I cannot reply to that question directly because when 11 you use the term "emotional condition," it can vary 12 from one end to the other, and I know you're saying 13 without regard to its severity, but I think that's 14 very important in replying to that. If there's a 15 severe, obviously severe condition, no, we would 16 hesitate to do that. 17 If a person has an emotional condition, he 18 seems to fly off the handle and yet tries to correct 19 himself, that's an emotional condition that would not 20 restrict us from assigning him to a parish. He needs 21 to improve in the area, but that would not withhold 22 an assignment. So I'm just making those 23 qualifications just so that there would be no 24 misunderstanding. 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1057 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1058 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. Do you recall during this time period if 7 you did any checking on Father Smith? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are we talking March 9 and April of 1975? 10 MR. TINKLER: March and April of 1975. 11 A. I do not recall having done any checking. 12 However, with the receipt of this letter from this 13 doctor, I would have been in consult with him or with 14 his other physicians in the Albuquerque area before 15 any assignment would ever have been given. I do not 16 have a document to show that, but that is my normal 17 practice. 18 Q. And you feel you probably would have 19 engaged in conversation with his physicians? 20 A. Yes. And that would have been either 21 myself personally, or I would have asked my 22 chancellor to do that before we would have given him 23 any type of an assignment. 24 Q. And is it fair to say that that would have 25 been the extent of your checking at that point in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1059 1 time? 2 A. Um-hm. 3 THE WITNESS: This one is 29; so that 4 should be 30. 5 (Exhibit 30 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you a 8 handwritten letter from Father Smith to you dated 9 June 30th of 1975, which is marked as Exhibit 30. 10 Would you please review that. 11 A. (Witness referred to document.) 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Do you have a question, 13 Mr. Tinkler? 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Yes. Do you recall 15 receiving this letter? 16 A. No, I don't recall receiving it, no. 17 Q. Do you recall having any meetings with 18 Father Smith as he requested? 19 A. No, I don't recall those meetings. I 20 don't recall this one or any subsequent ones. That 21 does not eliminate meetings, but I just can't recall 22 them. 23 Q. Do you remember who Dr. Jacobson is, who's 24 referred to in that letter? 25 A. That name sort of jumped out at me, and I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1060 1 said, who is that? And I really don't recall who he 2 was. It sounds -- I don't know who he was. He 3 doesn't put any initials behind the name. He must 4 have mentioned him to me before, and I must have 5 spoken with Dr. Jacobson, invited him to a meeting 6 that Father Smith wanted to attend, but I don't 7 recall the man at all. I just -- 8 Q. Is it fair to say you don't recall having 9 any heart-to-heart talks with Father Smith? 10 A. No. Apparently he -- I was not the one. 11 Monsignor Rieffer apparently was a trusted friend of 12 his that he spoke heart-to-heart with. 13 Q. Does the phrase in that letter, "why can't 14 I have this with the Archbishop" mean anything to 15 you? 16 A. Well, he was -- 17 MS. KENNEDY: Object. Calls for 18 speculation on the part of this witness as to what 19 some other now deceased person meant when he wrote a 20 letter in 1975. 21 MR. TINKLER: I asked what it meant to 22 him. 23 MS. KENNEDY: No, you asked what it meant. 24 MR. TINKLER: To him. 25 MS. KENNEDY: And it's a letter written by CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1061 1 someone else. 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: To whom? 3 MR. TINKLER: To Archbishop Sanchez. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The Archbishop's 5 testimony is that he doesn't recall this letter. Are 6 you asking him what it means to him today, now 7 reading it? 8 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: His recollection as of 10 October 4, 1994? 11 MR. TINKLER: Right now. 12 THE WITNESS: That question that he was 13 asking Monsignor Rieffer, "Monsignor why can't I do 14 the same with Archbishop Sanchez?" and his answer, 15 "Fear was his answer," indicates that he was 16 regarding me as his superior and could not bring 17 himself to speak openly with a superior, as happens 18 in so many cases. 19 (Exhibit 31 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what is 22 marked as Exhibit 31, and asking you to review that 23 letter, which is a letter from Father Smith to the 24 Archdiocesan Personnel Board, dated July 21, 1975. 25 A. Okay. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1062 1 Q. Do you recall seeing that letter? You 2 were copied on the letter. 3 A. No, I don't recall it, but here it is. 4 Q. Do you recall the subject matter that's 5 discussed in the letter? 6 A. The subject matter is to what I had a 7 vague memory of a while ago and I alluded to that, 8 about his intention to seek another diocese or a 9 religious community of some kind where he might find 10 happiness for himself. 11 Q. Does the letter refresh your memory as to 12 the statement that he had recent meetings with you? 13 A. It says that I agreed -- "Dr. Alan 14 Jacobson readily agreed with me, and with my 15 permission, he met with Archbishop Sanchez, and he 16 too concurred with our decision," the decision being 17 that of Dr. Jacobson and myself, and I concurred. 18 I don't recall any meeting with him, but 19 if a physician makes a request on behalf of a priest 20 patient, I listen to the physician. You have to. 21 That's their personal life and -- 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1063 1 2 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And the question I was 4 asking you before that was the very first sentence in 5 this letter. It says, "In recent meetings with 6 Archbishop Sanchez." 7 A. I see that, right. He refers to 8 meetings. I don't recall them. I would have met 9 with him to try to reach this decision of which he's 10 speaking, that is responsibility, but I don't recall 11 them, nor do I recall a meeting with Dr. Jacobson. 12 Q. Do you recall learning from any source, 13 whether it be those meetings or any source at that 14 point in time, anything about Father Smith's history? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Do you recall ever asking him any 17 questions about his history? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. In Exhibit 30, on the second page, Father 20 Smith says, "I have been truthful with myself" -- 21 this is regarding his problems, and "it goes back to 22 my childhood." Do you recall ever having any 23 discussions with him about that? 24 A. No. That discussion apparently took place 25 with his therapist, this Dr. Jacobson, but I did not CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1064 1 ask him about whatever had surfaced in those 2 meetings. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And does the 12 documentation refresh your memory as to what type of 13 doctor he was? 14 A. I have no recollection. What appears to 15 be here is that he was a therapist. 16 Q. Now, do you remember after this request of 17 the Personnel Board what happened next with Father 18 Smith? 19 A. I don't recall what happened next. I 20 assume that he left for the Midwest, as he indicates, 21 to seek a diocese or a religious community that might 22 be interested in him that he would enjoy. 23 Q. Is it your recollection that the Personnel 24 Board and yourself at least did not object to him 25 going to the Midwest? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1065 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. Without regard to the details, do you 3 remember him going to South Dakota? 4 A. I don't recall him going to South Dakota 5 except I think it was in South Dakota where he had 6 his accident. That seems to relate itself, but I 7 don't recall where he went, actually. 8 Q. The accident you're referring to was the 9 one that occurred before the December leave of 10 absence; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is it fair to say that as of the date of 13 the last exhibit, you still knew nothing of his 14 personal history? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Wait a minute. Let's 16 be a little more precise. 17 MR. TINKLER: I don't have it, or I would 18 be. 19 MR. KONRAD: There you go. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The last exhibit, 21 Exhibit 31, the date I have there is July 21, 1975. 22 Now, what's the question? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You still had no 25 knowledge of his personal history? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1066 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Did you have any knowledge of his history 3 with the church? 4 A. What do you mean? 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: This has been asked and 6 answered. 7 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. This 8 has been asked and answered. 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We're going month by 10 month. We've gone March, April, and now we're in 11 July. We're going to proceed month by month through 12 all 12 months of each year from 1975 to the present? 13 MR. TINKLER: We might. 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Well, I remind you that 15 this deposition was noticed up for five days, which I 16 think was generous, considering the Archbishop has 17 already been available for deposition for almost a 18 dozen days. 19 MR. TINKLER: You know, Dick, I don't need 20 these statements on the record. I'm going to do my 21 deposition, and I'm going to ask this question, and 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1067 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Now, I'm going to hand 23 you what's marked as Deposition Exhibit 32, a letter 24 from you to Reverend William O'Connell, Rapid City, 25 South Dakota, dated August 19, 1975. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1068 1 A. (Witness referred to document.) 2 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 31? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 MS. KENNEDY: It's 32. 5 MR. TINKLER: I'm sorry, 32. 6 Q. Turn your attention to the second 7 paragraph. The first sentence says, "Father Smith 8 was ordained Deacon and incardinated in this 9 Archdiocese on December 13, 1970." Do you see that? 10 A. Um-hm. 11 Q. How did you know that? 12 A. I didn't know it. That's something you 13 would have to ask my secretary to get information to 14 put the dates down and fill it in. I could not tell 15 you when he was ordained a deacon or when he was 16 there. It had to come out of -- 17 Q. His file, right? 18 A. No. It comes out of a file that the 19 secretary has regarding -- it's called "Assignments 20 of the Archdiocese." She doesn't have to go to the 21 file. She goes to this. It has date of ordination 22 and places of assignment, and all the assignments of 23 the priests are placed in there. And that's what she 24 would use for information. 25 Q. Do all significant events in the priest's CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1069 1 tenure, are they placed in there? 2 A. Just transfers, from one assignment to the 3 other. It's an assignment history, sort of, I guess, 4 a curriculum vitae of assignments and positions held. 5 Q. And the next sentence says, "He was 6 ordained to the priesthood for this Archdiocese on 7 March 25, 1971." 8 A. Um-hm. 9 Q. Is that information from the same source? 10 A. The same source, right. 11 Q. And then further into the paragraph it 12 says, "He served in this capacity from March 25, 1971 13 to December 16, 1974"? 14 A. The same source. 15 Q. The same source? 16 A. The secretary keeps that. With all 17 transfers, she would update that. 18 Q. Do you recall consulting with the 19 secretary in 1975 to get the information to write 20 this letter? 21 A. I would simply dictate the letter, leaving 22 the dates blank that she would fill in with the 23 proper information. 24 Q. What about further down into the paragraph 25 where it says, "In the summer of 1974, while on CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1070 1 vacation, Father Smith suffered a compound fracture 2 of his ankle, which resulted in extended 3 hospitalization. This experience, coupled with a 4 chronic diabetic condition, caused him to experience 5 psychological feelings of inadequacy." What is the 6 source of that information? 7 A. It was my own experience with him and 8 apparently with his physician, this Dr. Jacobson. 9 Q. And do you remember whether you reviewed 10 his file in order to come up with that information? 11 A. No, sir, I did not. His feelings of 12 inadequacy was current. He was refusing to take an 13 assignment in the Archdiocese and had asked rather to 14 be put in residence someplace before given any 15 assignment. 16 Q. At the bottom of the page, you say, 17 "Without hesitation, I can say that he was loved by 18 all the parishioners, as well as the clergy and 19 sisters with whom he worked." What was the source of 20 that information? 21 A. From his pastor, Monsignor George Rieffer. 22 Q. And is it fair to say that when you wrote 23 this letter to Reverend O'Connell, you had not -- you 24 had no knowledge of the fact that Father Smith had 25 been kicked out of the seminary on two occasions? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1071 1 A. No, sir. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1072 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1073 1 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you know where Father 3 Smith went to seminary? 4 A. I have no idea. 5 Q. Were you aware that he wasn't in the 6 Archdiocese of Santa Fe seminary? 7 A. We do not have and have never had a 8 theological seminary. We have only had a college 9 level. And, in fact, at this time, we would have had 10 only two years of college, the first two years of 11 college. 12 Q. When you wrote Exhibit 32 to the head of 13 another diocese -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- did you think that you had an 16 obligation to the Reverend O'Connell to give him a 17 full and complete history of the man that you were 18 sending there to do ministry? 19 MS. KENNEDY: Objection to the extent the 20 question calls for a legal conclusion. 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection also in that 22 he refers to other people who the Reverend O'Connell 23 could speak to in the letter. 24 THE WITNESS: I do not recall whether the 25 Reverend O'Connell had asked any specific questions CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1074 1 regarding Father or had simply asked for information 2 regarding him, why he was there, and why he was 3 requesting permission to work in that particular 4 diocese. I updated him as to who he was, as far as 5 ordination and the assignments he had had, the 6 difficulty he'd experienced. That was my knowledge. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And so unless someone 8 asked you a specific question, you didn't feel you 9 had an obligation to supply the answer? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1075 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1076 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 THE WITNESS: Let me answer it this way, 8 sir, and you'll hear it answered. Procedure, when a 9 priest asks permission to work in another diocese, 10 they ask, "What is your status in your own 11 archdiocese or your own diocese? Are you an active 12 priest? Do you have permission of your own bishop to 13 work in that diocese?" 14 I was responding to say, this man is a man 15 in good standing in our diocese. He has had 16 assignments. He has just completed one. He has been 17 suffering some physical difficulties. He's had this 18 accident. He is now seeking employment in your 19 place. 20 And that's what they were seeking. That's 21 what we give. "What is the standing of the priest in 22 your Archdiocese now?" They're not asking for an 23 entire history of a person when they ask, "What is 24 the standing of the priest in your archdiocese?" To 25 that I was responding. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1077 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay. Just so that I 2 understand, you're saying that's all you felt you had 3 an obligation to do; is that correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Now, do you recall what happened next with 6 Father Smith once he went to South Dakota? 7 A. No, sir, I don't recall the history of 8 those weeks or months, whatever it was, that he was 9 away searching for a place. I know eventually he 10 returned, but I don't know when that was. I can't 11 recall when that was. 12 Q. Do you recall that at the time that he did 13 leave, the time of, approximately August 19 -- 14 A. '75. 15 Q. -- 75, what his emotional condition was? 16 A. I think he was -- I would have to say, I 17 don't recall, but I would have to say it was upbeat 18 inasmuch as he had a good experience at Annunication 19 parish, and was petitioning for permission to seek a 20 diocese, another diocese, had taken the 21 responsibility to write his letter to the Personnel 22 Board. I would have to say that it seems that he was 23 pretty upbeat about it. 24 Q. But you don't have an actual recollection 25 of knowing what his emotional condition was? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1078 1 A. No, sir, I can't recall his emotional 2 condition. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We'll need to go off the 4 record and change tapes. 5 MR. TINKLER: Okay. 6 (A discussion was held off the record.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, when -- at 8 that point in time when you were corresponding with 9 the Reverend O'Connell in Rapid City, do you recall 10 whether there had been a discussion of Father Smith 11 being incardinated into the diocese in Rapid City? 12 A. No, I don't recall any discussion of that 13 nature. Normally, that comes years after a person 14 has been working in a place. 15 Q. When that does -- when that happens where, 16 say, one of your priests leaves to another diocese 17 and seeks incardination, what do you do at this 18 diocese with respect to that request? What's the 19 procedure you follow? 20 A. If they request permission to incardinate 21 Father X in their diocese, then an agreement is made 22 with the local ordinary of the original diocese 23 regarding a specific date, and the file of the 24 individual is transferred over to the other diocese 25 so that they have a full file on that person. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1079 1 Q. So you would, for instance, if Father 2 Smith was trying to be incardinated in South Dakota, 3 this file, his priest file would be transferred; is 4 that correct? 5 A. Yeah, that's right. If they are ready to 6 incardinate, everything goes, everything we'd have. 7 Period. 8 Q. Would you retain a copy? Was that your 9 practice in 1975? 10 A. Normally -- 11 MS. KENNEDY: It assumes facts not in 12 evidence that there was such a policy in '75. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I think everything goes 14 because he simply belongs to someone else now, and 15 there's no need to have the records here since the 16 records would be in the other place. 17 In fact, we did that for a couple of 18 priests in Las Cruces when we established a new 19 diocese in Las Cruces. There were a couple of our 20 own priests were from here went there, and so 21 everything went to them. No copies were made. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When that transfer 23 occurs of the file, is there any review of the file 24 that is made by anyone at the Archdiocese? 25 A. I can't say for certain whether review is CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1080 1 made of it or it's simply transferred. In the 2 instances that I've just given you as examples, they 3 simply bundled up everything, and that was the 4 chancellor, everything that pertained to those 5 particular priests, and it went over to the other 6 bishop. 7 Q. And that was without any review? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Yesterday, do you recall, I asked you some 10 questions about Exhibit 19, which is a letter dated 11 November 29, 1975. Do you see that -- do you 12 remember that from yesterday? 13 A. Let me look at it a second. 14 Q. Do you recall that exhibit? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 (Exhibit 33 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 Q. I already asked you some questions about 19 that yesterday, and to put it in context, I'd like 20 you now to read Exhibit 33, which is a letter dated 21 November 3, 1975, preceding Exhibit 19, from Father 22 Smith to yourself. 23 A. (Witness referred to document.) 24 Q. Have you finished reading the exhibit? 25 A. Yes, sir, I have. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1081 1 Q. My question is, back in November of 1975, 2 when you received Exhibit 33, which was approximately 3 three, four months after Father Smith had left this 4 diocese, did you have any concern about his emotional 5 condition? 6 A. I'm sure I had the ordinary concern that 7 you would have about a person who was not physically 8 well, both his physical condition, as well as his 9 emotional condition, because his diabetic condition 10 was one that seemed to be very consistent with him. 11 It never got real stabilized. He was always having 12 problems. 13 Q. And the question was, apart from the 14 physical condition, when you received Exhibit 33, did 15 it cross your mind that he wasn't exactly stable, 16 given the fact that he had been for one year now 17 going from a leave of absence to leaving the diocese 18 and now wanting to come back to the diocese? 19 A. He apparently had left the diocese in 20 August or so of that year, and this was now 21 November. Not that many months had transpired 22 between the time of leaving and this letter. 23 I don't see anything in it that would be 24 alarming. He's writing from a church in Rapid City 25 where he has served. He's informing me that he's CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1082 1 been in discussion with Father O'Connell and the 2 bishop, and that they've recommended that he might 3 want to consider a religious community. And since he 4 knew of one in St. Louis that was familiar to him, he 5 was going to drive down to St. Louis and spend time 6 there with them and see if that was -- and that was 7 all part of his intention when he left the 8 Archdiocese. He was going to try to find a place 9 where he could, as he felt, find happiness and peace 10 for himself. 11 Q. Did you have any conversations with either 12 Father Smith or the various priests that he dealt 13 with in Rapid City during this time frame? 14 A. I had received that letter from Father 15 O'Connell, as you indicated. I don't recall any 16 other priests at all with whom I would have spoken. 17 He mentions Bishop Dimmerling; Bishop Dimmerling was 18 the bishop at that time. He also refers to the 19 bishops' meeting in November where we all gather in 20 Washington for an annual meeting, and that he might 21 see me then and chat with me. I don't recall whether 22 he did or not. He may very well have done so. But 23 that was the limit of the contact with him. 24 Q. So the fact that he was moving at least 25 fairly frequently did not concern you? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1083 1 A. No. 2 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object to the 3 categorization that leaving here and going one other 4 place is moving frequently. 5 MR. TINKLER: Well, I didn't say that. I 6 said he took a leave of absence. Then he went into a 7 parish. Then he left for another diocese, and within 8 four months he's heading for a religious community. 9 Q. But that didn't bother you? 10 A. That was the purpose why he left, was to 11 search for another diocese or a religious community. 12 So, in fact, he was doing what I expected him to do. 13 Q. How about when you received Exhibit 19 14 three weeks later? 15 A. When I received this letter here -- 16 MS. KENNEDY: Let's wait for a pending 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When you received 20 Exhibit 19 three weeks later, did you have any 21 concern about his emotional condition? 22 A. Perhaps less concern. 23 Q. Less concern? And why was that? 24 A. Because he seems to indicate in the letter 25 that trying to seek another diocese or religious CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1084 1 community was in fact what he calls "running"; that 2 he really wasn't facing himself; that he did have the 3 confidence to serve as a priest and could in fact 4 serve here. And so it seems to be a letter of 5 recognition of himself. 6 Q. So are you saying that when you received 7 Exhibit 19, that you felt that Father Smith had come 8 to an understanding of his problem and that he was 9 not ready to resume practice in your diocese? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Misstates 11 the Archbishop's testimony. That's not what he said. 12 THE WITNESS: I felt that Father Smith had 13 recognized that he was not going to find another 14 place that would be paradise for him, and that in 15 fact he belonged to the Archdiocese, and here is 16 where he should be working. We have nice parishes. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In the second paragraph 18 on page 2 of Exhibit 19, Father Smith says, "I would 19 like to return, Archbishop, to accept an assignment 20 from you with the promise to give it my very best. 21 Monsignor Rieffer" -- 22 A. Rieffer. 23 Q. -- "Rieffer assured me that you were 24 really concerned about me and many of the Priests of 25 the Archdiocese." Do you recall expressing real CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1085 1 concern to Monsignor Rieffer about Father Smith? 2 A. I think that was a kind remark on the part 3 of Monsignor Rieffer. 4 Q. What do you mean by that? 5 A. That he would tell him, "The Bishop is 6 concerned about you." I was concerned about him, as 7 I am concerned about any priest who is sick, as you 8 are concerned about any child of your family who is 9 ill, but it wasn't a dramatic type of concern that 10 you may be alluding to. I was just simply concerned 11 how he was doing. 12 And I think Monsignor Rieffer was trying 13 to assure Father Smith that I was not angry, I was 14 not upset; that, in fact, I was concerned about his 15 condition. 16 Q. What about the last sentence in that 17 paragraph, "I would like to get settled so that I can 18 be a stable person and do a job that is in my" -- I 19 can't read that word. 20 A. It says, "I would like to get settled and 21 show that I can be a stable person and do a job that 22 is given me with the help of God and my own 23 convictions." 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: There's not a question. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When you read that, was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1086 1 it your opinion that he had not been a stable person, 2 or was that news to you? 3 A. This was -- he had not been stable in the 4 last four or five months, in fact, more than that, 5 since his accident, since he did not have a permanent 6 assignment for any more than apparently six weeks or 7 so at Annunication. 8 So he had been in several places. He had 9 been, asked permission to go out and seek some other 10 place, and certainly that showed a lack of stability 11 within himself. And this is what he seems to be 12 referring to. 13 Q. So would you agree that as of November 29, 14 1975, by his own assessment, and by your review of 15 his record, he had not been stable for some period of 16 time? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 18 Archbishop -- if we're talking about physical 19 stability or emotional stability, we're going to have 20 to make some distinction or there's going to be some 21 confusion here. I think you're confusing in this 22 questioning -- I mean, admittedly, the Archbishop has 23 testified he's moved around, he's not stable in that 24 respect. 25 If you want to be more precise, perhaps we CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1087 1 can clarify what seems to be in the record. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When you used the 3 language that he was not stable -- he had not been 4 stable for a period of time, were you referring to 5 his mobility or his emotional condition? 6 A. Well, certainly, number one, his mobility, 7 because he had been moved from place to place, and he 8 himself had moved from place to place, but in honesty 9 I would have to say he lacked confidence in himself. 10 It seems to me that lack of self-confidence was 11 driving him to this instability or constant moving. 12 Q. Did you interpret his phrase "and show 13 that I can be a stable person," you thought that 14 meant with regard to his mobility or his emotional 15 condition? 16 A. Certainly regarding his mobility because 17 he even refers to himself that perhaps I was upset 18 with him or didn't have confidence because he had 19 moved so much and had even asked permission to leave 20 the diocese. He had showed instability. 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1088 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. Did you interpret this letter to mean that 14 he was not suffering from any type of emotional 15 disturbance at the time? 16 A. I certainly did not interpret that, and I 17 would not interpret it now that a person is free from 18 anything. It indicated to me that he was beginning 19 to look at reality; that he was saying, "I've been 20 ordained for the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. I have 21 served there. I have experienced my own instability, 22 but I think I can go back and prove that I can be a 23 very stable and loyal priest." 24 Q. And shortly after receiving Exhibit 19, do 25 you recall what action you took with respect to his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1089 1 request to return to this diocese? 2 A. I do not recall what action I took. I 3 presume that I would have responded to his letter or 4 a phone call, in other words, a response of some 5 kind. 6 (Exhibit 34 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what's 9 marked as Exhibit 34. 10 MS. KENNEDY: It's 12 o'clock. Do you 11 want to take a break now? 12 MR. TINKLER: Why don't we just at least 13 finish this exhibit? 14 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 15 document.) 16 Yes, sir. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Exhibit 30 is a letter 18 from you to Father Robert Smith, basically granting 19 his request; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And it says you discussed his condition 22 with him -- or his request with the Personnel Board? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall that? 25 A. I don't recall it, sir. We had so many CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1090 1 Personnel Board meetings over those 20 years. 2 Q. But apparently the other -- Exhibit 19 was 3 dated November 29th. By December 4, which had to be 4 shortly after you received the letter, you had made 5 up your mind that he was ready to come back to your 6 diocese; is that correct? 7 A. Well, we had made up our mind that he was 8 welcome back because we're the diocese of origin. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 (The deposition recessed at 12:00 p.m. 22 and resumed at 1:00 p.m. as follows:) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm going to 24 hand you what's marked as Deposition Exhibit 35 and 25 ask you if you can identify it. Look at it and see CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1091 1 if you can identify it. 2 A. It is a memo from my secretary, this is 3 her handwriting, mentioning a Dr. Dwane Hagan in St. 4 Louis, a phone call from him, and a notation that 5 "this is Father Smith's doctor." I don't recall the 6 incident or her handing it to me, and I don't recall 7 a Dr. Dwane Hagan. 8 Q. But does that appear to be one of your 9 message pads? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. And you recognize your secretary's 12 handwriting? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 (Exhibit 36 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. Then I'm going to hand you what is marked 17 as Exhibit 36. Can you identify that exhibit? 18 A. This is a memo in my handwriting, 19 referring to an Edgewood Hospital, St. John's Mercy 20 Medical Center, and also the La Salette community, 21 apparently, in St. Louis, with the names of 22 individuals attached to them, and it's in my 23 handwriting. 24 Q. Do you recall making this note? 25 A. I don't recall making it, but it's in my CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1092 1 handwriting. 2 Q. Do you know who Father McCormick -- I 3 can't -- Father McGuirk? 4 A. Yeah, I don't know who that is. He may 5 have been attached to one of these places here. I 6 just don't recall. 7 Q. Do you recall who Dr. Gene -- it looks 8 like "Wojtowitz"? 9 A. No. I must have received those names from 10 them in some communication or phone conversation, but 11 I don't know who. This "Edgewood Hospital" is the 12 only thing familiar on that that I would recognize. 13 Q. And you don't have any memory of talking 14 to people regarding Bob Smith at these various 15 institutions that are identified on Exhibit 36? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. To put it into context, Exhibit 35, the 18 phone message, appears in Father Smith's file 19 followed by Exhibit 36. Does that refresh your 20 memory at all? 21 A. No, it doesn't. I just don't recall 22 speaking to either of these. 23 (Exhibit 37 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. I hand you what is marked as Exhibit 37. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1093 1 It's a letter from Father Smith to you. I believe 2 it's dated January 1st. 3 MS. KENNEDY: Of what year? 4 MR. TINKLER: '76. 5 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 6 document.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed 8 Exhibit 37? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And do you recall receiving that letter 11 from Father Smith? 12 A. I don't recall receiving it, but I'm happy 13 to look at it. 14 Q. Do you recall from this morning right 15 before lunch, I think the record had indicated that 16 in December of that previous year, '75, you had 17 welcomed him back to the diocese, Father Smith, that 18 is; is that correct? 19 A. After his hospitalization, right, because 20 of his ankle injury, right. 21 Q. Well, now I'm talking about after you 22 received a letter from him on November 29, 1975, 23 regarding his wishing to return to the diocese after 24 having been to South Dakota and St. Louis? 25 A. Right. Now your statement was what CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1094 1 again? 2 Q. I'm trying to put this in context. A 3 month before this letter, Exhibit 37, you had written 4 a letter to Father Smith, letting him know you were 5 welcoming him back into the diocese; is that correct? 6 A. Right. That was in reply to his letter of 7 November 29th. 8 Q. And you had determined from that letter of 9 November 29th that he was much, much better; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Seems to be. 12 Q. Now, what was your feeling when you 13 received Deposition Exhibit 37 and learned that he 14 was receiving electroshock therapy, some less than 30 15 days later? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Your question is "How 17 did you feel about it?" 18 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: How did I feel about it 20 then, or how do I -- 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Then. 22 A. I must -- at that time I would have been 23 in contact with this Dr. McGuirk. I think that was 24 the reason for that other phone memo that you 25 indicated to me. So I must have been introduced to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1095 1 something. Oh, Father McGuirk, yeah, called you. 2 "Since he called you, I have been hospitalized at 3 St. John's Medical Center here in St. Louis." 4 It was a surprise to me that he had 5 written a letter, very clear, and then here that he 6 was taking treatment. 7 Q. What was your knowledge about shock 8 treatment at that time in 1975? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In 1975, what was his 10 knowledge? 11 MR. TINKLER: Right, yes. 12 THE WITNESS: I had no knowledge of 13 various forms of treatment that went on in hospitals 14 or psychotherapeutic centers. I had no -- whether 15 that was normal or not. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you have an 17 understanding of what shock therapy was, shock 18 treatment was? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When you received the letter then, what 21 did it mean to you? 22 A. That he was under the care of a physician 23 and in the care of a hospital, a medical center, and 24 they were treating him for what they felt was 25 necessary. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1096 1 Q. Did you understand after receiving Exhibit 2 37, was it your understanding that they were treating 3 him for some emotional or psychological problem? 4 A. Whatever understanding I had would have 5 been clarified by the therapist or the doctor 6 mentioned here. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1097 1 2 3 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So did you call Father 5 McGuirk? 6 A. I don't recall it. However, he had placed 7 a call to me. I assume I returned the call. 8 Q. Did you call Dr. Hagan after you received 9 the letter dated January 1, 1976? 10 A. I do not recall those phone calls. 11 Q. Do you recall ever talking to Dr. Hagan? 12 A. I don't recall speaking to any of them. 13 Q. What was your impression of Father Smith's 14 emotional condition after you received Exhibit 37? 15 A. That he apparently had problems and was 16 under treatment by the physicians. 17 Q. Would it be fair to say that you thought 18 his condition had worsened since the November 29th 19 letter you received? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Exhibit 38 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 24 as Exhibit 38 and ask you to review that letter from 25 you to Robert Smith dated January 13, 1976. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1098 1 A. All right. 2 Q. Have you reviewed that? Do you remember 3 sending that letter? 4 A. No, I do not. 5 Q. It's from Father Smith's file. Do you 6 have any reason to doubt that it was sent? 7 A. No, I have no reason to doubt that. 8 Q. Why would you write Father Smith and tell 9 him you were glad to hear his condition had improved 10 if you really felt it had worsened? 11 A. His letter had indicated that he had been 12 with a doctor, that he was going to be released, and 13 I had to assume that physicians would not release a 14 person unless their condition has improved. That 15 would be my response. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1099 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In your January 13, '76, 11 letter, you indicate that you were anxious to hear 12 from his doctor. Does that refresh your memory as to 13 whether or not you had ever spoken to his doctor as 14 of January 13, 1976? 15 A. As I testified, I have no memory of having 16 spoken to any of those physicians. This indicates 17 that I probably did. I have no memory of it. 18 Q. I think it indicates that you probably did 19 not. I just want to clarify that. 20 A. Oh. 21 Q. Read that again and see if that is what it 22 indicates. 23 A. It says, "I am anxious to hear from your 24 doctor so as to receive his personal 25 recommendations." CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1100 1 Q. Does that indicate to you that as of 2 January 13th, you had not yet heard from his doctor? 3 A. That I had not yet heard from him. I was 4 anxious to hear from him, um-hm. 5 (Exhibit 39 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 8 as Exhibit 39, which is a letter from Dr. Hagan to 9 yourself, dated February 4, 1976. 10 A. (Witness referred to document.) 11 Q. Do you recall receiving Exhibit 39? 12 A. I do not recall that, no. 13 14 15 16 A. I did not recall that at this time, no. 17 Q. At that time, back in 1976, were you 18 familiar with that illness? 19 A. Not in any professional way. 20 Q. How were you familiar with it? What did 21 you know about it? 22 A. Just the expression "manic depressive 23 illness" means a person is apparently suffering from 24 severe depression. 25 Q. That's what it meant to you? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1101 1 A. That's what it meant to me. 2 Q. Were you aware of the treatments that were 3 utilized for that type of illness at that time? 4 A. No, I was not aware of what kinds of 5 treatment they may recommend for that type of 6 illness, no. 7 Q. Did you call Dr. Hagan to learn more about 8 the illness? 9 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. Asked 10 and answered. He's already indicated to you that he 11 has no recollection now of any conversation with Dr. 12 Hagan, and he's told you three times that. 13 MR. TINKLER: But he hadn't told me before 14 he saw this letter. So now I want to see if his 15 memory is refreshed. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall calling 17 Dr. Hagan. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) After this letter? 19 A. After this letter. 20 Q. Okay. Do you recall after this letter 21 contacting Dr. Jacobson? 22 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 23 Q. And do you recall monitoring Father 24 Smith's psychiatric or psychological care after this 25 letter? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1102 1 A. I do not recall any specific actions 2 towards monitoring it. According to this letter, he 3 would be under the care of a Dr. Jacobson when he 4 would return to Albuquerque. I would assume Dr. 5 Jacobson would continue to monitor him regularly as 6 his professional physician. 7 Q. And you as the Archbishop of this priest, 8 did you feel that you had no obligation to monitor 9 the mental health of the priest that might be coming 10 back into the parishes? 11 A. I did not say that, nor did I infer that. 12 I said the professional monitoring would be from his 13 professional therapist. I would work in conjunction 14 with a therapist for any type of assignment or place 15 of residence or other care that he might recommend, 16 as I would for any priest who is ill. 17 Q. Did you have set in place in this diocese, 18 in February of 1976, any type of procedure for 19 dealing with priests who are returning from 20 hospitalization for various mental illnesses? 21 A. No formal procedure outlined in policy 22 form. 23 Q. Was there an informal procedure? 24 A. I think every procedure we take is 25 informal for the good of a person. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1103 1 Q. Was there an informal procedure that you 2 had that, in general, pertained to the Archdiocese 3 treatment or monitoring of patients, priests, who 4 have just returned from mental health treatment? 5 A. Informal procedure consists of contacting 6 or being in contact with a person's physician 7 regarding any specific diet, any specific care, what 8 to be avoided or what is permitted, and I would have 9 to be advised of that before any type of assignment 10 would be given. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. Do you recall receiving any correspondence 22 from Dr. Jacobson after this letter of February 4, 23 1976? 24 A. No, sir, I do not recall receiving any. 25 Q. Would Dr. Jacobson have been one of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1105 1 health care providers from whom you had received 2 correspondence that you destroyed the correspondence? 3 A. No, sir. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Assumes 5 facts not in evidence. There's no evidence that the 6 Archbishop destroyed any correspondence from Dr. 7 Jacobson. 8 MR. TINKLER: No. It was a question. 9 THE WITNESS: I do not recall any 10 correspondence from Dr. Jacobson. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall him to be 12 one of the health care providers that had a policy of 13 writing "confidential" on his correspondence and 14 asking you to destroy it? 15 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 16 Q. Is it fair to say that you don't recall 17 one way or the other whether Dr. Jacobson had 18 correspondence that you destroyed, had sent you 19 correspondence that you destroyed? 20 A. That's what I have stated. 21 Q. Do you remember if you conducted any type 22 of investigation into Father Smith's emotional and/or 23 physical condition after he returned from St. Louis? 24 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 25 Q. Do you recall talking to Father Smith CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1106 1 after he returned from St. Louis? 2 A. I do not recall talking to Father Smith 3 anytime immediately following these events. 4 (Exhibit 40 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 7 as Exhibit 40, which is your letter dated February 8 18, 1976, to Father Smith. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Do you recall sending that letter to 11 Father Smith? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of the 14 letter, the events that occurred? 15 A. I do not recall any of these things and 16 details, if that will assist you. The document in 17 front of me is all that I can judge from. 18 Q. And it doesn't refresh your memory? 19 A. I just don't recall that. That's my 20 procedure. 21 Q. What's your procedure, to send a letter of 22 this type? 23 A. Um-hm. 24 Q. And at least from the face of the letter, 25 it would appear that you placed him on a temporary CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1107 1 assignment in February; is that correct? 2 A. That's what it says, "this is to be 3 considered a temporary assignment, allowing you all 4 the time necessary to regain your health and your 5 personal confidence." 6 Q. Do you have a recollection of whether or 7 not Father Smith was receiving therapy during this 8 temporary assignment, therapy from Dr. Jacobson? 9 A. No, sir, I don't recall that. 10 Q. Do you recall whether he was receiving 11 therapy from anybody during this time period? 12 A. No, I don't have any recollection of any 13 particular therapist. 14 Q. Just for point of information, you copied 15 certain priests on this particular letter? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Do you know why? 18 A. Yes. The first name is the Chancellor, 19 and that's normal. The second name was the pastor of 20 Our Lady of Fatima parish, where he would be in 21 residence. The third name is the chairperson of the 22 Personnel Board. 23 (Exhibit 41 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1108 1 as Exhibit 41 and ask you to review that document, 2 which is a letter from you to Father Smith, dated 3 June 21, 1976. 4 Do you recall this exhibit? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Do you recall assigning Father Smith to 7 Holy Ghost Church? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Does the time frame seem about right, the 10 date of this letter, or do you know? 11 A. I would not be able to recall, but I just 12 knew that I assigned him there. 13 Q. Do you recall during the time frame 14 February '76 through June '76 you had any discussions 15 with Father Smith about his emotional condition? 16 A. I do not recall any occasion. 17 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with 18 anyone about Father Smith's emotional condition 19 during this same time frame? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Do you recall making inquiries into the 22 status of Father Smith's mental illness that is 23 referred to in Dr. Hagan's letter? 24 A. No, sir, I can't recall making any 25 inquiries as to that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1109 1 Q. Do you remember ever talking to Father 2 Robert Smith after he was assigned to Holy Ghost 3 Church? 4 A. He was assigned to Holy Ghost Church, 5 according to this letter, in August of '76. 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: June, I think. 7 MR. TINKLER: Or effective -- 8 THE WITNESS: And being there, I would 9 have visited him with the pastor on regular parish 10 work, but I don't recall any of those things. I know 11 I had to see him and speak with him, but I do not 12 recall any particular incidences. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall having any 14 concern about Father Smith when he returned from St. 15 Louis in February of 1976? 16 A. The recollection I have is that he was not 17 well. The one thing that is overpowering in my mind, 18 and it was for many years, is that he was suffering 19 from severe diabetes and had to be on a very strict 20 diet; that he was not a well person that way. So I 21 certainly was concerned about his well-being. 22 What I did or people I spoke with 23 concerning it, I don't recall, but I do know that 24 there was always that concern in my mind and my heart 25 for his physical condition. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1110 1 Q. How about his mental condition? Was there 2 a concern in your heart for his mental condition? 3 A. I do not have that overpowering concern. 4 I do not recall it now. I'm certain that when he was 5 under the care of his therapist, that was a concern. 6 Q. Does the Archdiocese keep or receive 7 medical records of its various priests? 8 A. No, we don't. I don't think it's a 9 practice of physicians to extend medical records 10 out. You can speak with the physician, and they will 11 give you their opinion or diagnosis, whatever it may 12 be, but I don't recall seeing documents on medical 13 conditions. 14 Q. Do you recall directing that anyone within 15 the Archdiocese follow Father Smith after he returned 16 and evaluate his mental condition? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: By "follow" you mean 18 periodic checkups on him -- 19 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- or trail him? 21 MR. TINKLER: I don't mean literally 22 following him. 23 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't recall 24 asking anyone to monitor him. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Would it be fair to say CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1111 1 that you did not ask anyone to monitor him? 2 A. I did not designate anyone. That is not 3 my practice. I can't recall. I'm certain I did 4 not. But in any instance where a person is ill, and 5 he is assigned to a parish, I ask the pastor to be 6 careful with the person, especially if he has a 7 strict diet that has to be followed. And the pastor 8 informs the housekeeper so that diet can be 9 accommodated as best they can. 10 Q. How about if you have a priest that is 11 being returned to the ministry who has had some 12 emotional problems, been diagnosed with some kind of 13 mental illness, do you have the pastor follow his 14 behavior or check on his behavior? 15 A. Pastors would be able to recognize 16 behavior that was not in the ordinary course of 17 events very quickly regarding any priest and would be 18 able to notify me. 19 Q. So it wasn't your practice to seek that or 20 to direct the pastor to look for behavior. You just 21 assumed that they would do that anyway; is that 22 correct? 23 A. That would be correct. 24 Q. Do you recall ever even informing the 25 pastor of Holy Ghost Church that Father Smith was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1112 1 returning from treatment in a St. Louis hospital 2 where he received electroshock treatment for manic 3 depression? 4 A. I do not recall sharing detailed 5 information with the pastor that way. 6 Q. And was the pastor Monsignor Stadtmueller 7 at that time? 8 A. Pastor of? 9 Q. Holy Ghost. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And do you recall sharing any information 12 regarding Father Smith's mental condition with 13 Monsignor Stadtmueller? 14 A. I don't recall doing that specifically, 15 no. 16 Q. Do you recall how Father Smith did in the 17 ministry there at the Holy Ghost during, let's say, 18 the next five years? 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I have an objection to 20 the question. Vague and ambiguous. How he did? 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How he performed his 22 duties? 23 A. To the best of my recollection, he and the 24 pastor worked very well together. People seemed 25 pleased with his ministry. I do not recall any CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1113 1 particular complaints. I do not recall him having 2 any relapses during that particular time. 3 In summary, I would have to say that to 4 the best of my recollection, his ministry was 5 acceptable ministry. 6 Q. Do you recall him having any physical 7 problems during that period of time that were brought 8 to your attention? 9 A. I think his diabetic condition persisted, 10 continued, and that continued to be a concern, 11 especially his own discipline on avoiding things with 12 sugar. 13 Q. Do you have a recollection of whether his 14 mental condition still required treatment during this 15 period of time? 16 A. I have no recollection of any need for 17 that, no. 18 Q. Do you have a recollection of talking to 19 Father Smith and him saying, "I'm well now. I feel 20 great," or anything like that? 21 A. No, not specifically. 22 Q. Do you have any recollection of having any 23 conversations with Father Smith after he was 24 appointed to Holy Ghost where you even inquired about 25 his mental condition? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1114 1 A. Sir, I simply cannot recall any type of 2 conversations. That's not to indicate that I did not 3 have them. 4 Q. Do you recall that Father Smith was 5 elected dean of the deanery subsequent to this? 6 A. I don't recall that. 7 Q. I'll represent to you that in his 8 personnel file, there is a letter to that effect in 9 June of 1979. 10 A. That he was appointed dean? 11 Q. Yes, or elected. 12 A. Elected dean. 13 Q. And the next document that appears in his 14 file is Exhibit 42. 15 (Exhibit 42 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: May we see the exhibit 18 that you've just referred to? 19 MR. TINKLER: Sure. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed 21 Exhibit 42? 22 A. Yes, I have. 23 Q. Do you remember receiving that document? 24 A. I don't recall the occasion, no, sir. 25 Q. Do you recall Father Smith being placed at CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1115 1 the Servants of the Paraclete? 2 A. Yes, sir. I directed him to go there. 3 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 4 surrounding that direction? 5 A. Not in detail, but I do have recollection 6 of a parishioner from Holy Ghost parish. 7 Q. 8 A. You've got it. a 9 parishioner of Holy Ghost parish, brought to my 10 attention an incident that involved her son, which 11 she characterized as sexual misconduct on the part of 12 Father Smith, abusing her son, I think, is the way it 13 was placed, and she seemed to be a very reliable 14 person. She wasn't distraught but very trustworthy 15 is what I'm trying to say and sincere. I think she 16 even indicated that Father Smith had been a friend of 17 the family, a close friend, and that they cared for 18 him that way, but she was concerned about this 19 incident and asked me to bring it to his attention 20 and take what steps were necessary. 21 That was the reason why he was asked to go 22 to Jemez Springs. 23 Q. Do you recall , where she 24 contacted you? 25 A. I believe the contact took place at my CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1116 1 home, at my home. 2 Q. Do you recall who else was present? 3 A. Perhaps -- if you have documents. 4 Q. Do you recall Father Jerome being present, 5 Jerome Martinez? 6 A. Yes, at this time frame, this is '84? 7 Q. '83, September or October, I think, of 8 '83. 9 A. Well, Father Jerome Martinez was living 10 with me at that time as moderator of our curia. He 11 might very well have been present for this. 12 Q. Do you recall if anyone else was present? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Do you recall what you told 15 you would do? 16 A. No, sir. I recall listening to her, and 17 it would have been my intention and perhaps I stated 18 to her that I would confront Father Smith as soon as 19 possible. 20 Q. Do you recall her telling you that since 21 the incident, Father Smith had called her five times 22 and that she -- do you recall her telling you that? 23 A. No, I don't, hm-um. 24 Q. Do you recall talking to Father Smith 25 about the incident? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1117 1 A. I have a vague recollection but -- I have 2 a recollection, it's just a vague one, of confronting 3 him almost immediately. It may very well have been 4 that same day or shortly thereafter, but the 5 confrontation would have been in my office. That's 6 the recollection that I have. 7 Q. Do you recall, did Father Smith admit the 8 allegations? 9 A. The allegation that the mother had shared 10 with me was some kind of abuse of her child, but the 11 mother did not go into detail with me, not that I can 12 recall. 13 Q. Did she tell you -- she told you it was 14 sexual abuse, though, didn't she? 15 A. Yes, this is what she was referring to, 16 but she didn't describe any details. Yeah, it was 17 just that. 18 I think my confrontation with Father, and 19 I can't recall the detail, would have been to repeat 20 her words that she had shared to me with him. And to 21 the best of my recollection, he agreed or admitted 22 that he had been indiscreet or had done whatever she 23 was referring to, but she did not give me any details 24 as to what took place, not that I can recall. 25 In any event, it was because of that event CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1118 1 and the confrontation that I then asked him to go to 2 Jemez Springs. 3 Q. But you allowed him to remain on the 4 pulpit for several months after that, didn't you? 5 A. I can't recall when his entry to Jemez 6 Springs took place as a residential patient. I just 7 don't remember that. 8 Q. Do you remember if you immediately removed 9 his faculties? 10 A. I do not recall that, no. 11 Q. Do you recall ever removing his faculties? 12 A. Well, removing him from the parish, he 13 would have been relieved of his faculties from 14 ministry that way. This was in October '83? 15 Q. Right. The letter from the Servants is 16 June '84, the letter that I identified as Exhibit 17 42. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The letter you 19 identified, but it is not an entrance letter. It's a 20 report. 21 MR. TINKLER: I just said the letter. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't recall when he 23 entered. I do know that that year, in '83, in that 24 month, I left to Rome with a group of pilgrims, 25 nearly 50 people, and we were going to visit both CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1119 1 Rome and the Holy Land for about three weeks, and it 2 went from October into November. So it must have 3 been perhaps around, maybe leaving around the 20th of 4 October or so, because I think we returned at the end 5 of the first week of November. I do recall that type 6 of recollection because we had such a large group. 7 Now, I don't know whether he entered into 8 psychotherapy at Jemez before that date, before I 9 left, or after I came back. We'd have to ask -- 10 unless you have some documentation indicating when he 11 entered. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, I don't. I'm 13 wondering if you recall what you did with respect to 14 his faculties, if you removed them before you left on 15 your trip or after or ever? 16 A. Well, like I said, as soon as he was 17 removed from the parish, his faculties were removed. 18 I recall, but I don't recall in detail, requiring him 19 to see a therapist, to receive an evaluation. I 20 don't know whether he went directly to the Servants 21 of the Paraclete or whether he went to another 22 therapist known to him. 23 Q. Or whether he went at all? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's not the 25 witness's testimony. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1120 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall him going 2 to a therapist after this? 3 A. I directed -- I don't recall definitely, 4 but I know in the back of my mind, I have that 5 feeling that I directed him to a therapist, but I 6 can't recall whether it was the Servants of the 7 Paraclete at that time. Obviously, he was there at a 8 later time, according to this letter. But I don't 9 know who he would have seen in the meantime. Perhaps 10 it was the Servants of the Paraclete. 11 Q. But that's speculation on your part? 12 MS. KENNEDY: You've been asking him to 13 speculate all day. 14 THE WITNESS: This is a letter from the 15 Servants of the Paraclete. He was there in the 16 spring of '84. I don't know when he went. And it 17 says he'd had two other incidences having to be 18 hospitalized during the time that he was there. It 19 just gives me the impression that he must have been 20 there for some time before this letter was written. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When came 22 to your home and made this complaint, did you think 23 that this was a serious matter? 24 A. I would assume I did consider it to be 25 serious. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1121 1 Q. If what she had told you were true, would 2 it have been the type of conduct that you would not 3 permit a priest to continue in the parish? 4 A. Yes, not to -- 5 Q. Continue with full faculties in the 6 parish? 7 A. Not referring to the conduct. It's the 8 type of conduct I would not want repeated. 9 Q. Was it your practice in 1983 that if 10 someone came, a citizen came -- a parishioner came, 11 complaining of a priest molesting a child, that you 12 would put the priest back into the parish, or would 13 you remove him from the parish? Which was your 14 procedure? 15 A. If the offense brought to my attention or 16 the allegation brought to my attention was of a 17 serious nature, action should be taken to remove 18 him. If, however, the person were going to receive 19 immediate care at the therapist's, and the therapist 20 were in the city, he may remain at that same 21 assignment but not necessarily function as a parish 22 priest. I do not recall, however, withdrawing any 23 faculties separate from removing him. 24 Q. Do you recall earlier when we were talking 25 about what you did when Father Sigler was -- when CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1122 1 allegations were made against Father Sigler in 1981? 2 You immediately removed him from service; isn't that 3 correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you recall doing that with Father 6 Smith? 7 A. No, I do not recall that one way or the 8 other. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) On this pilgrimage that 21 you made to the Holy Land in '83, who accompanied you 22 on that? 23 A. There were 50 people. 24 Q. Fifty? Were they all from this diocese? 25 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1126 1 Q. Were any of them priests? 2 A. Fifteen of them were priests. 3 Q. From this diocese? 4 A. Yes, to the best of my recollection, they 5 were all from this diocese. 6 Q. And were any of the remainder of the 7 people, or were all of the remainder of the people 8 parishioners? 9 A. I can't recall every individual. I think 10 there were some relatives that had come in to join 11 others from out of state; so I could not say that all 12 were parishioners. 13 Q. Were any of the members of this group that 14 went to the Holy Land any of the women that you 15 identified as you having relationships with in your 16 previous deposition? 17 A. No, sir. No, sir. 18 Q. Did Father Smith -- do you recall Father 19 Smith ever talking to you about whether there were 20 other victims other than ? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Did you ever ask Father Smith if there 23 were other victims other than ? 24 A. Not that I recall. 25 Q. Did you ever ask his therapist to give you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1127 1 any reports regarding other victims? 2 A. No, not that I can recall. 3 Q. By 1984 or '83, when this complaint was 4 made, you had already learned that oftentimes these 5 kinds of crimes are committed against more than one 6 individual; isn't that correct? 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. That 8 misstates evidence that the Archbishop has given. 9 The Archbishop's testimony, it wasn't until the 10 conference of bishops in 1985 that -- 11 MR. TINKLER: You forget his testimony 12 about Jason Sigler in 1981, where he said that they 13 understood there might be other victims and Father 14 Hunt's search for other victims. 15 Q. You had that information in 1983. Why 16 didn't you either ask Father Smith or direct that 17 someone else ask Father Smith about other victims or 18 investigate to see if there were other victims? 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Compound 20 question. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why didn't you do any of 22 those things? 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's still compound. 24 THE WITNESS: Sir, I had not had any 25 complaints about Father Smith. I had no reason then CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1128 1 to suspect that there were others. 2 Secondly, Father Smith had been under the 3 care of a doctor, a therapist. I cannot recall 4 whether he was still under the care of that therapist 5 at that time. That's possible. 6 I had no reason to believe that there was 7 any other reason to seek other possible victims that 8 may have occurred. The mother seemed very sincere, 9 very concerned, and very kind toward Father. I had 10 to assume that they had been friends. She did not 11 indicate any possibility or any indication that there 12 may be others with whom Father may have been 13 indiscreet. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you interview her 15 child? 16 A. No, I did not, not that I can recall. I 17 don't recall ever meeting him at that time. 18 Q. You've already testified that when you 19 learned of the allegations against Father Sigler in 20 1981, that you didn't believe you had any prior 21 complaints about him either, and yet you directed 22 Father Hunt to find out, or Father Hunt and you 23 agreed to find out if there were other victims? 24 A. That's right. 25 MS. KENNEDY: Wait a minute. There's no CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1129 1 pending question. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why didn't you do the 3 same thing in 1983 with respect to Father Smith? 4 A. There's a difference. The difference in 5 my mind is that the allegations brought against 6 Father Sigler by Father Hunt were multiple, and 7 Father Hunt, being a man trained in this area, was 8 concerned about potential other victims, and I agreed 9 that this was a concern, and not only to visit with 10 the parents of the boys whom he was mentioning, but 11 through them to find out if there may have been 12 anyone else involved. 13 But this was information from a man who 14 was trained in that particular area of concern. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you have Father Hunt 16 interview Father Smith? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Did you have anybody in the diocese who 19 was trained in dealing with this type of problem talk 20 to Father Smith? 21 A. As I told you, I have a recollection of 22 having him see a psychiatrist or a therapist. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 23 Jerome Martinez, nevertheless, reporting back to you 24 regarding a contact he had with Father Smith 25 concerning this allegation? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1132 1 A. I simply don't recall that, sir, no. 2 Q. Do you recall Father Jerome Martinez 3 telling you that he had contacted 4 after this and after he had contacted Father Smith? 5 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 6 Q. And is it fair to say that you yourself 7 didn't direct him to contact ? 8 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: That's not fair to state. 10 That's making a statement coming from me. You are 11 suggesting it. That is not fair. My procedure would 12 have been to ask the chancellor to follow up and to 13 let the lady know what we have done. That's my 14 procedure. And I don't recall it, but that would 15 have been my procedure. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And was he the 17 chancellor? 18 A. He was what we call the moderator of the 19 curia. 20 Q. And what is that? 21 A. In a sense, it's the person in charge of 22 all the various ministries in that particular office 23 of the Catholic Center. He was a canonist, and he 24 was one that I could ask to do things such as this 25 because of his specific training. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Was there any subject matter restraint on Father 10 Martinez and his speaking with if your 11 standard practice had been followed? 12 A. This is great speculation. 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You don't need to 14 speculate, Archbishop. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can't speculate, but 16 my concern for would have been to try 17 to reach her to let her know I had met with Father 18 Smith. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Do you remember, did you institute a 24 canonical procedure to determine whether he was 25 guilty of the charges? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1137 1 A. I do not recall instituting a canonical 2 procedure. 3 Q. Wasn't that what the canons called for 4 when a priest denies the allegations? 5 A. In 1983, '84, I don't recall -- well, 6 maybe so. I'd have to be shown the canons. I think 7 there's in the canons, saying that you have a right 8 to establish a canonical procedure for investigating 9 anything specifically. I do not recall establishing 10 a canonical procedure for Father Smith. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. When you were the Archbishop in 1974, 20 after you became Archbishop, was it your -- what was 21 the procedure for ordination that you were to follow? 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's been 23 asked and answered in this very deposition in fact 24 today. 25 MR. TINKLER: I wasn't here. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1138 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That may be literally 2 though not physically true, but you've asked him the 3 process of ordination. 4 MR. TINKLER: No. I'm asking his process 5 of ordination. 6 Q. What documents did you require when you 7 ordained somebody? 8 A. Canonically, we have to make certain that 9 they are baptized Christians, confirmed Christians; 10 that they have been approved, at least their life has 11 been acceptable; that they have gone through a course 12 of studies that is recommended by the church in 13 preparation for priesthood; and that their bishop, to 14 whom they belong, is satisfied and calls them forth 15 to ordination. 16 Q. And by "satisfied," is the bishop required 17 to be satisfied as to the good morals of the 18 candidate? 19 A. That is included from the seminary's 20 recommendations. 21 Q. Does the Archbishop, or did you, in your 22 practice as Archbishop, have the final say on the 23 evaluation of the candidate's morals? 24 A. I did not always know the candidates 25 personally, but we would have testimony given by CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1139 1 people from the parish, from the seminary, and from 2 the current priests as to the worthiness of the 3 candidate. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. Would you have ordained anybody that had 12 previously been accused and believed, apparently, by 13 his superiors, of molesting boys? 14 A. I probably would not have. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR. TINKLER: Precisely. Let's take a 11 break. 12 THE WITNESS: I think we need one. 13 (A recess was taken.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm going to 15 hand you what's marked as Exhibit 43, which is some 16 handwritten notes in 1991. I'd like you to look at 17 that and see if you can identify the document. 18 A. (Witness referred to document.) 19 Q. Have you reviewed 43? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Can you identify the document? 22 A. It's a memo that I wrote. 23 Q. That's your handwriting? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And do you recall the subject matter of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1143 1 the memo? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you recall the meeting with 4 that occurred I guess on May 10? 5 A. Yes, I do recall him coming to the office. 6 Q. Is that May 10, 1991, is that when he came 7 to the office? 8 A. That's the date on the memo, and I assume 9 that was the date that he came. 10 Q. What do you recall about that meeting with 11 ? 12 A. introduced himself, mentioned that he 13 was originally from Holy Ghost parish; that he was 14 now at New Mexico State University; and that he was 15 going through some therapy at New Mexico State area 16 in Las Cruces, and was wondering if the Diocese could 17 assist him because he had been the person that his 18 mother had brought to my attention some years before, 19 seven years before, and asked if that could be done. 20 He was a very fine young man, very gracious. And so 21 I thanked him for the information and told him I 22 would call his mother. 23 The second part of the memo indicates I 24 called mother, she was very grateful, and we 25 offered to supplement payments for therapy. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1144 1 Q. Do you recall any other aspects of the 2 conversation with other than what you 3 just testified to? 4 A. That was pretty much the gist of it. 5 Q. It sounds like you didn't really discuss 6 any details about the abuse; is that correct? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did he tell you anything about Greg Ball? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know the name Greg Ball? 11 A. Don't even know the name. 12 Q. When did you first meet Father Ed Donelan? 13 A. I believe I met Father Ed Donelan, one 14 recollection I have is, must have been in the fall of 15 1970. 16 Q. And what do you recall about that? 17 A. I had just returned -- I was stationed in 18 Mosquero at the time, and on that particular morning 19 had gone out deer hunting and had shot a deer and had 20 to haul it almost two miles alone, and I will not 21 forget that. 22 When I returned home, he arrived shortly 23 afterwards, within moments after I had arrived, and 24 we chatted about my deer, and he said, "You know, the 25 boys at the ranch would really enjoy a meal of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1145 1 venison," meaning to say, "Would you mind sharing the 2 deer?" So I said, "Why don't you help me put it in 3 your truck?" And we did, and he was off. That was 4 the first meeting. 5 Q. Had you heard of him prior to that? 6 A. Just the fact that there was a boys' 7 home. I had not visited it. 8 Q. Is that really all you knew about it, that 9 it existed? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. When is the next contact you recall with 12 Father Donelan? 13 A. There may have been others, but they 14 simply did not stick in my active memory, but the 15 next event that comes to my mind deals with the 16 concerns about the Hacienda de los Muchachos. In 17 other words, around 1976 I think you mentioned this 18 morning. 19 Q. So you don't have any recollection of any 20 contact with Father Ed between the incident where you 21 described regarding the deer and the closing of 22 Hacienda -- or the events surrounding the closing of 23 the Hacienda de los Muchachos? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. When you became the Archbishop in 1974, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1146 1 was Father Ed Donelan under your jurisdiction? 2 A. As an ordained priest in the Archdiocese, 3 he was. As head of the Hacienda de los Muchachos, he 4 had to answer to the Health and Social Services of 5 the State of New Mexico. 6 Q. Did he perform any priestly duties at the 7 Hacienda de los Muchachos, or were you aware of 8 whether he did or not? 9 A. I'm not aware whether he did or not. He 10 was an ordained priest. 11 Q. Do you know if church services were held 12 at the Boys' Ranch, Catholic church services? 13 A. Yes. I do not know that for a fact. I do 14 not recall visiting the Hacienda; so I don't recall 15 seeing any chapel or anything of that nature. 16 Q. Do you recall if Father Ed gave Mass at 17 the Hacienda? 18 A. I do not know whether he gave Mass or, if 19 he did, how frequently. 20 Q. Was he with his full faculties during the 21 time he was at the Hacienda, up until the time of 22 closing? 23 A. He had been ordained and granted 24 faculties, or at least granted faculties in that 25 position by my predecessor, and I simply continued CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1147 1 what had been granted. 2 Q. So he was able to perform all priestly 3 duties if he so chose? 4 A. If he was called upon, because he had no 5 other assignment except that. 6 Q. And was that, do you know, was that 7 actually an assignment of the Archdiocese for him to 8 go to the Farley Boys' Ranch? 9 MS. KENNEDY: Object. Calls for 10 speculation. 11 THE WITNESS: It was not an assignment by 12 the Archbishop. It was permission granted by my 13 predecessor for him to assume that position as 14 director. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you ever have any 16 discussions with your predecessor, Archbishop Davis, 17 regarding the Boys' Ranch? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with 20 Archbishop Davis regarding Father Ed Donelan? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Do you ever recall hearing allegations 23 regarding Father Ed Donelan's alleged homosexuality 24 in 1971? 25 A. '71. No, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1148 1 Q. Would a complaint or -- I don't know if 2 complaint is the right word, but an inquiry by the 3 state regarding Father Donelan and alleged homosexual 4 tendencies on his part that was made to the 5 Archbishop be something that would normally come 6 before the Personnel Board? 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, when? 8 MR. TINKLER: In '71. 9 THE WITNESS: No, a complaint of that 10 nature would not normally come before the Personnel 11 Board. It's administrative, not concerning an 12 assignment. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Since you only recall a 14 couple of contacts regarding Father Donelan up until 15 the time of the Hacienda situation, is it fair to say 16 you didn't know him very well during that period? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Have you ever since then gotten to know 19 Father Donelan? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Have you ever reviewed his file, Father 22 Donelan's file? 23 A. No, sir. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Prior to 1976, do you 11 recall receiving any complaints regarding the Boys' 12 Ranch? 13 A. I do not recall receiving any complaints 14 prior to the time, say, the end of '75, '76. I don't 15 recall exactly when I did receive letters, but I 16 don't want to be held to just one specific date of 17 1976. 18 Q. Well, I'm just saying, the general time 19 frame -- 20 A. All right, yes. 21 Q. -- when, let's say, things started to heat 22 up? 23 A. That's better phrased. 24 Q. Prior to that, do you recall any 25 complaints? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1150 1 A. I do not, no. 2 Q. Can you recall the first complaint you 3 heard, whether it was oral or written? 4 A. That's going back a few years. I don't 5 recall if I received first an oral or a written 6 complaint. 7 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of the 8 first complaint? 9 A. No, sir, I can't recall which was the 10 first complaint. 11 Q. During your tenure as Archbishop, did you 12 have an opinion as to whether it was appropriate for 13 a priest to take young boys on trips? 14 A. Prior to what again? 15 Q. During your tenure as Archbishop? 16 A. I'm sorry, during. I never voiced any 17 directive to the clergy until a meeting of the clergy 18 late in the '80's, which in a general instruction of 19 just comments, I mentioned that concept, that it 20 would not be proper. 21 Q. Did you have an opinion as to whether it 22 was proper prior to that, prior to the late '80's? 23 A. I do not recall thinking about an opinion 24 on that, no. 25 Q. Do you recall hearing any instances where CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1151 1 Father Ed would take boys from the ranch on trips to 2 the East Coast? 3 A. No, sir, I did not. We had practically no 4 contact with the ranch. It was a state-run 5 operation. 6 Q. During, let's say, the '70's, did you hear 7 of other priests taking boys on trips, priests within 8 your diocese? 9 A. In the '70's? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Not -- no, I can't recall. No. 12 Q. I take it then when you brought the 13 subject up in the late '80's, that you must have 14 heard of some action like that; is that true or not? 15 A. No, sir, that did not occasion it. The 16 instruction to which I am referring was simply a 17 presentation to the clergy regarding the issue that 18 had surfaced in the country on pedophilia. We 19 introduced the term to them and what seemed to be 20 surfacing around the country and, therefore, 21 cautions. 22 Q. So it was really just unrelated to 23 anything going on in your diocese? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Did you learn from that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1152 1 Father Smith had taken her son on a trip? 2 A. I believe that was the nature of her 3 allegation, that they had traveled to someplace here 4 in the state. I don't recall exactly. 5 Q. Do you recall, though, that it had 6 something to do with him taking the boy on a trip? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you feel that was inappropriate, just 9 that alone? 10 A. Yeah. That was very -- that was 11 indiscreet or whatever, just not proper. 12 Q. Do you recall receiving any complaints 13 regarding Hacienda de los Muchachos before the young 14 man died, froze to death? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we have a 16 date on that? Is that -- 17 MR. TINKLER: February. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: 1976. 19 MR. TINKLER: Right. I thought he might 20 remember an event more than a date. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's been asked and 23 answered, Mr. Tinkler. You already asked him if he 24 heard anything before 1976. We're expanding it now a 25 month. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1153 1 MR. TINKLER: No, we're trying to focus it 2 down, not expand it. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the event -- 5 of a boy? 6 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: You say he had frozen to 8 death? 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You don't recall that 10 happening? 11 A. No, I don't. And I don't recall the year 12 when something like that may have happened. When did 13 it happen? 14 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you some questions 15 about it. If you don't remember it -- 16 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 17 (Exhibit 44 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what's 20 marked as Exhibit 44, and why don't you review that? 21 A. (Witness referred to document.) 22 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 44? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Do you recall receiving that? 25 A. No, I don't recall it, but it's here. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1154 1 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of that 2 letter? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It 4 addresses several subject matters. 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall the 6 subject matter in the letter regarding the death of 7 Vaughn, Vaughn somebody? 8 A. He mentions it here. I don't have an 9 active recollection of that, but he mentions it. 10 Q. This is his father, is that what you 11 understand the letter to be? 12 A. Pardon? 13 Q. Is this the father of the boy? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Father Ed 16 Donelan. I do not have an active recollection of the 17 letter. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you have an active 19 recollection of what first brought the Hacienda de 20 los Muchachos problems to your attention, what event? 21 A. I do not recall any particular event. I 22 think, as I recall back, there were a few letters 23 that I received. I don't recall how many, but I know 24 there was more than one, which were indicating 25 concern about the Hacienda de los Muchachos. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1155 1 One of the concerns that I recall was they 2 felt that Father Ed, as its director, was being 3 excessively strict toward the boys, not allowing them 4 freedom or free time, that his relationship to some 5 of the staff was very difficult. 6 It seems to me, if I can recall correctly, 7 they were concerned about the proper, what they would 8 call the proper administration of the ranch and that 9 it seemed to have evolved over the years -- they were 10 very happy, but over the years, it had evolved to the 11 point where they were now unhappy or felt they needed 12 to share their concern. 13 Q. And I take it from your answer, you don't 14 remember any of the specifics but just the general 15 nature? 16 A. That's what comes to mind, exactly. 17 Q. Do you recall receiving a letter from a 18 ? 19 A. The name , yes, does ring a bell. 20 Q. Do you know who he was or who he was? 21 A. I think he was just one of the employees 22 at the Hacienda. 23 Q. Did you ever talk to him? 24 A. I don't recall ever speaking with him, no. 25 Q. Did you ever have anyone from the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1156 1 Archdiocese go speak with him? 2 A. Perhaps when I asked Father Griego to go 3 to the Hacienda, he spoke with him. I could not 4 swear to that, but he went to speak to the staff, and 5 I would assume that he spoke with that gentleman if 6 he were present. 7 Q. Earlier I had shown you some exhibits that 8 referenced March of 1976 in some letters between you 9 and Sabine Griego. 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Do you recall whether or not the actual 12 complaints appeared prior to those letters or 13 simultaneous, or what do you recall in that regard? 14 A. The occasion for me to ask Father Griego 15 to go to the ranch and visit with the personnel was 16 brought about by their letters, which they had mailed 17 to me. 18 Q. Did you also receive letters from not 19 personnel but from people that lived in the area? 20 A. Yes. I think there was a family that 21 identified themselves, I forget the name of the 22 little community, but they lived nearby or perhaps in 23 the same community where the ranch was at. They were 24 neighbors. That's what they identified themselves. 25 Q. Did you have any discussions during this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1157 1 period of time that you were having Father Griego 2 investigate the ranch with Human Services Department, 3 anyone from that department? 4 A. I can recall receiving a phone call from 5 someone in the Health and Human Services Department. 6 I don't recall when that occurred, but it occurred 7 when these letters were coming. Maybe they were 8 sending the same letters to the Health and Social 9 Services, but they did call me. 10 Q. Do you remember what you learned from that 11 conversation? 12 A. They were concerned about the 13 administration of the ranch and apparently concerned 14 enough to feel that I should withdraw Father from the 15 directorship, that he was not doing his job, or that 16 there were complaints sufficient to warrant that. 17 It seems strange to me because the Health 18 and Social Services was the agency in charge. They 19 should be the ones to look at their work. 20 Q. Did you tell them that? 21 A. I don't recall what I told them. Perhaps 22 -- that was pretty much the gist of the 23 conversation. I can't recall more details. 24 Q. Do you recall receiving a report from 25 social services regarding their investigation or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1158 1 their recommendation? 2 A. I have a vague recollection that something 3 may have come from them, a letter -- I didn't realize 4 it was a report -- but I couldn't tell you what it 5 was or who it was from. 6 (Exhibit 45 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 9 what's marked as Deposition Exhibit 45, and I'm not 10 going to require you to read the whole report. I -- 11 MS. KENNEDY: Could you identify it? 12 MR. TINKLER: It's a cover letter with a 13 report from -- I can't see -- 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Oh, I'm sorry. It's 15 from Janet E. Bryan, who is the field office manager 16 for the Health and Social Services Department of New 17 Mexico, and it's dated March 30, 1976. And it has a 18 cover letter and it appears to be a six-page report 19 or so. 20 MR. TINKLER: And I'm not asking you to 21 read that report. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let us have an 23 opportunity to just look at the cover letter so we 24 get the general gist of it. 25 We've read the cover letter. If you want CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1159 1 us to refer to the report, we can do that as well. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No. Actually, I wanted 3 to ask you a question regarding the cover letter. I 4 believe it's the last sentence of the cover letter. 5 Can you read that? 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we just read 7 the whole cover letter? Why don't we put it in the 8 record? It's only a paragraph. 9 THE WITNESS: Do you want to read that? 10 MR. TINKLER: The letter states, "Enclosed 11 is a copy of the report we submitted to the Social 12 Services Agency Director and the State Health Agency 13 Licensing Division. As it states, it is only a 14 recommendation that the Hacienda not be used as a 15 child care facility. Because of the Archdiocese' 16 simultaneous decision that Hacienda should close, 17 some information and details were omitted from the 18 report. We felt they were potentially harmful and 19 unnecessary in light of your decision." 20 Q. Did you ever make any inquiry of Janet 21 Bryan or anyone else with Health and Social Services 22 as to what information and details they had omitted 23 from the report? 24 A. No, sir, I did not. 25 Q. Why not? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1160 1 A. That was their information and not mine. 2 Q. Didn't you understand that it had to do 3 with the Hacienda run by your priest? 4 A. That which was potentially harmful, if 5 they felt that it was sufficiently serious, they 6 should have brought that to my attention or to the 7 attention of their superiors. I'm not even certain 8 what they mean by "potentially harmful." 9 Q. You didn't ask them what they meant by 10 that, did you? 11 A. No, sir, I did not. 12 Q. Do you recall if you had any conversations 13 with Father Ed, one on one, after the allegations 14 started to surface? 15 A. The only conversation that I can recall 16 having with Father Ed was on the day that I informed 17 him that I was withdrawing permission from him to 18 serve as the director, and therefore he should so 19 notify the state and his board of directors, and if 20 they felt that they were not going to replace him as 21 director, they should proceed to close it. 22 Q. Do you remember when that took place, 23 approximately? 24 A. It's the same time -- 25 Q. Let's assume that you sent the letter that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1161 1 we've already introduced or identified to Sabine 2 Griego on March the 15th, I think, of 1976. Was it 3 around that time? 4 A. I probably met with him -- in fact, my 5 letter to Father Sabine you showed me this morning or 6 his letter to me said that you're going to meet with 7 him next week or Friday or something of that nature. 8 So it must have been within seven days of that 9 letter. 10 Q. When you met with him, was anyone present 11 with you? 12 A. Father Griego was present. Father Ed 13 Donelan was present. I was present. And I had 14 anticipated, I can recall, an attorney for Father 15 Donelan because he was quite upset over all of this. 16 I had spoken with him by phone and told him I wanted 17 to see him and that the subject of discussion would 18 be withdrawing his permission, which could result in 19 the closing of it, and he was quite furious. 20 Q. What did he say? 21 A. I don't recall what he said, but he was 22 quite furious. He was going to come -- in fact, I 23 think more than one attorney; that he had all sorts 24 of people who had supported the ranch, and he just 25 felt hurt. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1162 1 Q. Did he deny the allegations that were 2 being made by complainants? 3 A. I can't honestly say whatever he said, but 4 he seemed to indicate that they certainly were 5 misinterpreting his actions. 6 Q. Did you confront him when you met with him 7 about any sexual misconduct allegations? 8 A. I do not recall the detail of the 9 confrontation. I do not recall whether I confronted 10 him about any sexual allegations specifically. 11 Q. I believe, and you correct me if I'm 12 wrong, but I think you already did testify that you 13 had heard something like that without any details, 14 sexual allegations; is that correct? 15 A. Some overture, but I can't recall what 16 language would have been used. I know they were 17 concerned about his control over the boys. I just 18 can't recall that, sir. 19 Q. And you also said you couldn't recall 20 whether you confronted Father Ed about sexual 21 allegations. 22 A. Um-hm. 23 Q. When you say that, are you saying that you 24 don't remember whether you confronted him or whether 25 the event even occurred? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1163 1 A. I simply can't remember whether I did. 2 Q. In 1976 when this happened, would it have 3 been your standard practice to confront a priest who 4 had sexual allegations made against him? 5 A. Specific allegations? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Yes, um-hm. 8 Q. And you don't recall, or it sounds like 9 Father Ed tended to deny responsibility when you 10 confronted him, not for sexual allegations but for 11 the troubles at the school? 12 MS. KENNEDY: Object to the form of the 13 question. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Is that correct? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. To the best of my 17 recollection, he felt that the concerns were 18 exaggerated or misinterpreted and that I was doing 19 him a wrong. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And how did you feel 21 about that at the time? 22 A. I felt quite determined to take the action 23 that I had decided upon from the complaints that had 24 been voiced, conversation with Health and Social 25 Services, their concern about the place, perhaps this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1164 1 letter that you have a report on. I don't know 2 what's in there. But all of that led me to conclude 3 that he should not continue as its director. 4 Q. And did Father Ed, when you confronted 5 him, threaten to contest your anticipated action? 6 A. I think there was statements to that 7 effect, that he would speak with his attorney and 8 with his board of directors. I do not recall what I 9 replied with, but I don't recall anything ever coming 10 from it. 11 Q. You don't recall him ever contesting the 12 closing? 13 A. Not formally, no. 14 Q. After you had the meeting with him, what 15 action was taken next by the Archdiocese, either by 16 you or at your direction? 17 A. Since at that meeting I informed him 18 formally in the presence of another person that he no 19 longer had permission to serve as its director, that 20 he should start making plans to -- and also had 21 informed the Health and Social Services -- that he 22 should make plans to close the place down. He 23 shouldn't close it down because Health and Social 24 Services would close it down, but he would have to 25 make plans to do what was necessary. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1165 1 He explained that they owned a lot of the 2 equipment there -- I think I've mentioned that today 3 -- kitchen equipment and -- I don't think they owned 4 the land. I think the land belonged to the state, 5 but I think they owned the equipment that was in the 6 buildings, and I don't even know if the buildings 7 belonged to them. I think the buildings belonged to 8 the county. It must have been a school or something 9 of that nature before, but the beds, mattresses, all 10 equipment would have to be disposed of. 11 And I know he was concerned about, I can 12 recall that, concerned about a couple who were the 13 cook and sort of the caretaker for the place, and how 14 they were going to be taken care of because they had 15 been with him for so many years. That was his 16 concern. I remember that. 17 Q. At the time that you met with him, were 18 there still boys staying at the ranch? 19 A. I don't know. I would presume that there 20 were some boys there, but I do not know. I did not 21 go to the ranch, and so I cannot testify that I know 22 for certain. 23 Q. When you confronted Father Ed, did you 24 tell him, or did you direct him to see that all the 25 boys were placed outside the ranch? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1166 1 A. I do not recall that. That would be the 2 responsibility of Health and Social Services who 3 placed the boys there. 4 Q. Was it your understanding at that time in 5 1976 that all the boys at the ranch were placed there 6 by Health and Social Services? 7 A. It was under their auspices. I would have 8 to assume that. 9 Q. Was it your understanding that Health and 10 Social Services were paying -- was paying Father Ed 11 moneys for caring for the children? 12 A. I had no idea how funds were received. I 13 do know that he did write letters begging, if you 14 wish, for donations from various groups to help 15 support the ranch. Whether he received any funds 16 from HHS, I don't know. 17 Q. Prior to 1976 and the closing of the 18 ranch, did the Hacienda de los Muchachos have any 19 reporting responsibilities to the Archdiocese? 20 A. No, sir, it was not sponsored by the 21 Archdiocese. 22 Q. As a matter of course, did you receive 23 documents relative to the Hacienda de los Muchachos 24 during the time, prior to '76? 25 A. Not that I can recall. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1167 1 Q. Did you have a file at the Archdiocese 2 that was titled "Hacienda de los Muchachos" or 3 "Farley Boys' Ranch"? 4 A. Possibly. I think I mentioned or made 5 reference to that possibility yesterday. 6 Q. We have Father Ed Donelan's file, and it 7 contains many of the letters that were sent to you. 8 A. Then we didn't have a Hacienda file 9 because everything went into his file then. 10 Q. So it's your recollection that you never, 11 not never, but that in this instance you didn't 12 duplicate filing? 13 A. Oh, no. 14 Q. In other words, you wouldn't file one in 15 Ed Donelan's file and one in some other file? 16 A. It's enough trouble to file once. 17 Q. So it would have been your secretary that 18 would have done any filing; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you direct Father Ed with any deadline 21 or any type of deadline as to when boys should no 22 longer be present at the ranch? 23 A. I don't recall giving him a deadline. I 24 just don't recall the gist of the -- I would have to 25 review the documents to see if there was anything CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1168 1 that would state that. I just don't recall that. 2 I think the state would have something to 3 say in that, too. They cannot be -- I was not 4 running the ranch. The state was running the ranch. 5 And I withdraw Father's permission to continue as 6 director, period. 7 Q. Which you were hopeful had the effect of 8 closing the ranch; isn't that correct? 9 A. Yes -- well, he would be withdrawn. If 10 the state wanted to maintain the ranch, and if the 11 board of directors agreed to that, and they found 12 another director, that was their business. 13 Q. Did you know who was on the board of 14 directors for the ranch? 15 A. No, sir, I did not know that. 16 Q. And I know you indicated earlier that you 17 had never visited the ranch? 18 A. No, I don't ever -- 19 Q. I think when I asked the question, we were 20 in the early '70's. So I just want to know now, did 21 you ever visit the ranch at any time? 22 A. I cannot recall a visit there. 23 Q. Were you ever contacted by any of the 24 boys, I'm talking back then, in the '70's, '76, 1976, 25 that were at the ranch? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1169 1 A. I don't believe so. 2 Q. Do you recall hearing from 3 in June of that year, receiving a letter from him? 4 A. I remember the name and that he 5 had written a letter, but I don't recall when. 6 (Exhibit 46 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what's 9 marked as Exhibit 46, and I know it's kind of a 10 lengthy letter, but I do need you to read it. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we go off the 12 record then? 13 MR. TINKLER: Yes, let's go off the 14 record. 15 (A discussion was held off the record.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 17 an opportunity to review Exhibit 46? 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: For the record, that's 19 a letter of June 14, 1976. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And do you recall 22 receiving the letter? 23 A. I don't have an active recollection, but I 24 do recall receiving a letter from this gentleman. 25 Q. At the very first -- strike that. Yes, it CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1170 1 is; I guess it's about the sixth line down, he says 2 -- he starts out, "While I was home in my mobile 3 home across from the Hacienda, I recognized your car 4 at the building, and did get to at least wave a hello 5 to you as you were leaving." Do you see that? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to 8 whether you did or didn't ever go to the ranch? 9 A. I still have no recollection of having 10 visited. In fact, I wouldn't even know how to get to 11 Farley without a sign. I just don't remember that. 12 Q. You don't remember it. You're not denying 13 it though? 14 A. No, no, I just don't recall. 15 Q. At this point in time, at least the date 16 of the letter is June 14, 1976, why wasn't the ranch 17 closed? 18 A. Maybe you're asking the wrong person. 19 Health and Social Services operated the ranch. 20 Q. Why was Father Ed still there? 21 A. Father Ed had permission to dispose of the 22 materials, I believe even some pets. I think they 23 had some sheep or something of that nature maybe, 24 chickens, but as far as I was concerned, the ranch as 25 a ranch, as Hacienda de los Muchachos, was closed. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1171 1 Q. As of the date of this letter? 2 A. As of the date that we had set with him, 3 which was -- in other words, at least by this letter, 4 prior to it. 5 Q. Did you get the impression from this 6 letter -- was it your impression at the time that the 7 ranch wasn't closed; that there were still activities 8 going on there? 9 MS. KENNEDY: Wait a minute. So I'm 10 clear, you're asking him his recollection back then, 11 when he got the letter? 12 MR. TINKLER: Back then, yes. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not get that 14 impression the ranch was not closed. That ranch used 15 to have a lot of boys, and I don't think this 16 gentleman, something or other, is referring to 17 a full program continuing. He refers to one or 18 another boy, but one or another boy does not make a 19 program. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, but wasn't it your 21 understanding when you told Father Ed to close the 22 place -- 23 A. Oh, yes, yes. 24 Q. -- that he was not to have any boys there? 25 A. Yes, that's right. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1172 1 Q. And do you recall if you took any action 2 as a result of this letter from ? 3 A. I don't recall taking any specific 4 action. I just can't recall what I did as a result 5 of this letter. 6 Q. Do you agree, or did you agree with his 7 comment in the letter that you did not realize the 8 scope of the problems there at the ranch? 9 A. I think that he or the others who wrote 10 and Health and Social Services were closer to the 11 scene than I was. That's why I had asked one priest 12 to try to get some information. So obviously I was 13 not aware of the scope. 14 Q. Did you make efforts after receiving this 15 letter to determine the scope of the problem? 16 A. The ranch was closed. 17 Q. Did you make any efforts to determine if 18 some of the rumors you had heard about sexual 19 allegations were true? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did you have anybody interview any of the 22 boys at the ranch? 23 A. Not specifically, sir. I think that 24 belonged to Health and Social Services. I did not 25 have permission for that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1173 1 Q. You didn't have permission for someone 2 from the Archdiocese to interview the boys? 3 A. I think if you have charge of certain -- a 4 group of people, and given that charge by the state, 5 you're not going to let every John Doe come in and 6 talk to the children. 7 Q. Did you request that the state interview 8 the boys because of the rumors you had heard? 9 A. The state apparently had the same 10 information I had received. 11 Q. After you received the letter of June 14, 12 1976, did you confront Father Ed about the various 13 problems described in the letter that you previously 14 had not confronted him about? 15 A. I don't recall confronting him about 16 leftover problems that I had not previously 17 confronted him about, no. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, lest there 19 be some misconception, this letter documents what you 20 have called some problems, but those problems are not 21 specified as having occurred in June of 1976 22 necessarily. 23 MR. TINKLER: No, I didn't mean to leave 24 that impression. 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Or even since March of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1174 1 1976. 2 MR. TINKLER: No. I think the letter 3 speaks for itself. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Speaks for itself. 5 MS. KENNEDY: Let the record reflect 6 there's agreement of counsel. 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The deposition will be 8 concluded if there's nothing left to examine. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) After you received this 10 letter and learned that Father Ed was planning to 11 take several boys back East with him, did you contact 12 Father Ed about that? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Could you refer us? 14 It's a long letter here. 15 MR. TINKLER: It's on the first page. It 16 starts, "Do you know" -- it's down in the middle of 17 the first page. "Do you know that Father Ed lined up 18 two boys to go with him back East?" 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's "had lined up." 20 MR. TINKLER: Right. And then it goes on 21 to talk about the brother of the boy who froze 22 to death back in and did he want him to 23 take him back East. 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Right. We're not 25 suggesting that's in June of 1976? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1175 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay. I'm not 2 suggesting when that occurred. I'm simply saying, 3 did you make any investigation of those allegations? 4 A. I do not recall doing that specifically, 5 and that's not to deny that I may have very well done 6 that with this letter. 7 MR. TINKLER: You said you wanted to take 8 a break. This is a good time. 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Okay. 10 (A recess was taken.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 12 an opportunity to review Exhibit 47? 13 A. Yes, I did, during the break. 14 Q. The very beginning of that letter -- 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's a letter, 16 incidentally; correct? 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) It's a letter from 18 someone, I think Mrs. Frye; is that right? 19 A. Yes, a Darlene Frye. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: June 4, 1976. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And in the very first 22 paragraph of the letter, she thanks you for meeting 23 with her. Do you recall that? 24 A. No. She mentions a meeting with me on 25 March 5, but I don't recall that meeting -- oh, I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1176 1 have a general recollection, I did meet with 2 somebody, but I wouldn't know who they were. I 3 wouldn't be able to say they were the Fryes or 4 whomever. 5 Q. Do you remember meeting with someone 6 around the area around the Boys' -- -- that lived in 7 the area? 8 A. Yes, uh-huh, neighbors to the ranch. 9 Q. And this letter indicates the author of 10 the letter was a neighbor to the ranch; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. If I can point, there's one area. I guess 13 it's actually the second paragraph, Miss Frye says, 14 "Since our visit with you on March 5th, we have done 15 as you said, trying to keep things in the auspices of 16 the Church." 17 Do you recall that? 18 A. No, I don't. I'm not even certain what 19 she might be referring to. 20 Q. Do you recall having a conversation with 21 her and asking her to keep the matters regarding the 22 Boys' Ranch within the church and not in the 23 community? 24 A. No, I don't recall what I may have said to 25 her at all. I just know someone from the community CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1177 1 came to visit with me. That's a recollection I do 2 have. I don't recall the details of that meeting. 3 Q. After you read the letter, did this 4 refresh your memory about the meeting? 5 A. No, it sure didn't. I was surprised, in 6 fact, that she had said that. The letter really does 7 not refer to the meeting after that one statement. 8 It goes on with other concerns that she has for 9 herself, her family, and so forth. 10 Q. Did you respond to this letter, Exhibit 11 47? 12 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. 13 Q. If you had responded, would it be the type 14 of letter that would be filed in one of the files of 15 the Archdiocese? 16 A. If I had replied, I'm not certain whether 17 a copy would necessarily have been made. I didn't 18 make copies of every letter that I ever wrote just 19 regularly. If some letters were important, we always 20 kept copies; otherwise your files get bulky, but I 21 don't recall whether I responded to the letter, and 22 if I did, whether or not a copy was made. I just 23 don't recall. 24 Q. Do you remember the name ? 25 A. It's a different name. No, I don't know CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1178 1 who is. 2 Q. Were you aware while Father Ed was running 3 the Hacienda de los Muchachos that was 4 also working there? 5 A. No, I did not know that was 6 also working there. 7 (Exhibit 48 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. Let me hand you what's marked as Exhibit 10 48. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Do you recognize that document? 13 A. No, but now that you mentioned 14 since this is the 15 of Father Donelan, I recall some communication from 16 her. 17 Q. Does this Exhibit 48 appear to be 18 typewritten notes that you took? 19 A. The typewritten notes apparently from my 20 phone conversation with this lady. 21 Q. Here on the paragraph d) or it's labeled 22 paragraph d) of your notes, it says, "She has 23 questions concerning so-called bachelor weekends, 24 skin rooms, and bedcovers costing $40 each." Do you 25 recall her concerns? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1179 1 A. I don't know what that referred to. She 2 did simply express a concern about so-called 3 "bachelor weekends," and I'm not certain what 4 "bachelor weekends" refers to, since the boys' home 5 was for boys -- "skin rooms," and "bed covers costing 6 $40 each." 7 Q. Do you have any recollection of talking to 8 her about those subjects? 9 A. No, I don't recall. These are my notes, 10 but I don't recall speaking about them. 11 Q. Do you recall receiving any correspondence 12 from other than the letter we already 13 identified? 14 A. I just remember the name That's 15 what came to my mind. 16 Q. Do you recall describing 17 for you the skin room? 18 A. Now I'm trying to remember -- no, sir, I 19 don't recall any description from him. 20 Q. Do you recall informing you 21 about the incident where he walked in on Father Ed in 22 the skin room at the Boys' Ranch, and that Father Ed 23 was naked on the furs, lying on his side, embracing 24 one of the boys? 25 A. A very serious statement. I don't recall CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1180 1 it from the conversation or whatever it was with 2 3 Q. Do you recall that type of conversation 4 with anybody? 5 A. Not that particular thing that you're 6 talking about. 7 Q. If, in fact, that type of conduct was 8 going on there at the Boys' Ranch, and you knew about 9 it, would it have been the type of conduct that you 10 would have wanted to discipline Father Ed in some way 11 or remove faculties or something like that? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 13 Speculation, without more details. 14 THE WITNESS: What do I do? 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You can answer if you 16 can. 17 A. I'm not certain what I would have done. 18 That was 1976. I just don't know what for certain my 19 action would have been in 1976. 20 Q. In 1976, would you have felt that it was 21 appropriate for a priest to roll around on the floor 22 naked with boys who were naked -- young boys? 23 A. No, I would not have felt that was 24 appropriate. 25 Q. Do you remember after you received Exhibit CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1181 1 48 following up with Father Ed Donelan about 2 concerns? 3 A. I just -- I don't recall following that up 4 specifically. We weren't on the best of terms 5 following my decision. I don't know what I said to 6 him, if anything, or when I may have said something 7 to him. I just don't recall that but -- I'm trying 8 to recall whether something, if I had brought 9 anything to his attention about information from his 10 sister, and I just can't recall that. 11 (Exhibit 49 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 Q. I'm handing you what's marked as Exhibit 14 49 and ask if you -- first, look at the document. 15 MS. KENNEDY: Could you identify it? 16 MR. TINKLER: It's a letter from 17 to the Archbishop, dated July 27, 1976. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think -- 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Wait for the question. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) First, I want you just 21 to review the letter. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you remember receiving the letter? 24 A. I remember contact with the and I 25 guess this was perhaps in addition to the telephone CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1182 1 call -- this came in addition to the telephone call. 2 So I recall having contact with 3 Ed. 4 Q. Do you recall ever contacting her after 5 this letter, because she suggested you could contact 6 her. It gives you the address and phone number. 7 A. I don't recall any phone call back to her 8 at all, nor do I recall at this time the 9 acknowledgment of the letter. I normally acknowledge 10 letters, but I don't recall it. 11 Q. Do you recall talking to Father Ed after 12 you received Exhibit 49 about the subject matter that 13 his sister had raised with you? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The subject matter of 15 the question about the subject matter of the letter 16 that she raised pursuant to the July 27, '76, 17 letter? 18 MR. TINKLER: I believe the letter refers 19 to the July 12th phone conversation. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Maybe you could 21 rephrase your question to determine what it is that 22 you want to know. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In Exhibit 49, 24 gives you her address and her brother's 25 address and first asks you not to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1183 1 tell Father Ed that she had contacted you, and then 2 later she says, well, if you think it would help to 3 contact Father Ed, then do so. And I'm asking if you 4 did that? 5 A. I don't think that I -- I certainly did 6 not contact Father Donelan after the first because 7 she asked me not to; so I would obey that. I cannot 8 recall whether I then confronted Father Donelan on 9 behalf of following her letter. I don't 10 recall that. 11 (Exhibit 50 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 Q. I'm handing you what is marked as Exhibit 14 50 and ask you to review that. That's a letter from 15 you to Father Ed. I can't read the date June -- 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: 28th. 17 MR. TINKLER: -- 28, 1976. 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall sending 20 that letter? 21 A. I don't recall sending this particular 22 letter, but I do recall my concern about their 23 attorney and members of their board, concerns that 24 they had expressed, and I think that was the reason 25 why this letter was written and this meeting was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1184 1 called. 2 Q. Did the meeting referred to in Exhibit 50, 3 did it occur? 4 A. I have no recollection of it, but I assume 5 it did, yes. 6 Q. But that's an assumption? 7 A. That's an assumption, but it was called, 8 date is given, time is given, place is given. 9 Q. Do you recall ever meeting the board of 10 directors of the Hacienda de los Muchachos? 11 A. I do not recall meeting with an entire 12 board. I have a vague recollection of meeting both 13 an attorney for Father and representatives of the 14 board at some meeting, perhaps this was it, to listen 15 to their complaints or their position in reference to 16 the Hacienda de los Muchachos. 17 Q. Do you recall what their complaints were? 18 I'm referring to the board and Mr. Donelan's 19 attorney. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Compound. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall in detail 22 their complaints, but one thing in the back of my 23 mind was that they were informing me that I did not 24 have authority over them or their actions because 25 they were an independent board; that they in fact, I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1185 1 guess, own the materials of the Hacienda and not the 2 Archdiocese. And I think the attorney was clarifying 3 for me even the ownership of the land and what position 4 the Archdiocese had in the operation of the ranch. 5 And we met to clarify those issues. I 6 can't ever recall presuming that we owned the ranch 7 or that we owned any of the materials. That was not 8 our position. My position was that a priest of the 9 Archdiocese had been given permission to assume the 10 directorship. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall what 12 happened with respect to the final closing of the 13 school? Were items sold? What -- I don't know, I 14 can't find a record anywhere of what happened. 15 A. The disposal of the materials belonged to 16 the board, and I'm sure that was made clear at that 17 meeting; so that I did not concern myself about 18 materials that were there. I'm not even certain 19 right at this point as to the buildings; so I cannot 20 speculate. The state had been properly notified and 21 agreed, and things ended. 22 Q. And do you recall confronting Father Ed at 23 that meeting about the fact that boys were still at 24 the ranch? 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are we talking about CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1186 1 the July 16th? 2 MR. TINKLER: Yes, the July 16th meeting. 3 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall 4 confronting him about that point at that time. 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall 6 confronting him about boys being at the ranch after 7 you closed the ranch at any time? 8 A. I just don't have a recollection of that. 9 As I said, our meetings together were not always of a 10 pleasant nature. 11 Q. Did you, after you received the complaint 12 from about the skin game or the skin room, 13 did you ever ask Father Donelan what the skin room 14 was? 15 A. I don't recall asking that question. I 16 just don't recall what questions I posed to him in 17 our confrontations. 18 Q. Did you remove any of Father Ed's 19 faculties at the time of the closing of the Hacienda 20 de los Muchachos? 21 A. No, sir, I did not take any specific 22 action regarding faculties. I simply withheld an 23 assignment for several months. 24 Q. And do you remember what the next 25 assignment was? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1187 1 A. I think he was given an assignment as an 2 associate pastor, not as the pastor, but as an 3 assistant to a pastor, but you would have to help me 4 if you have any documents on that. 5 Q. Do you recall if the assignment was in the 6 same year, '76? 7 A. I'm not certain if it was in '76. I 8 think, since we had been at odds, I don't believe 9 that Father Ed was too anxious to take an assignment 10 from me. And I am not certain, but I believe that he 11 may have requested time off from an assignment, 12 leave, and just try to get ready for whatever future 13 he was going to have. I wasn't certain whether he 14 was going to continue to work in our Archdiocese. He 15 may very well have sought another Archdiocese for 16 himself because I know he felt very strongly against 17 me because of the action that I had taken, and those 18 feelings continued for many years. 19 (Exhibit 51 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. Let me hand you what's marked as Exhibit 22 51, which is a letter from you to Father Donelan, 23 February of 1977, and let you review that. 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Does that letter appear to reference the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1188 1 next assignment for Father Donelan? 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. And that's sometime in early February '77? 4 A. The date of the letter is February 22nd, 5 and I refer to an assignment effective March 1. The 6 assignment, as listed in the letter, would be a pro 7 tem assignment with Father Leo Lucero at the church 8 of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Santa Fe, and his service 9 would be on a limited basis because of a phlebitic 10 condition that he was experiencing in his legs. 11 Q. Did you restrict his faculties at all? 12 A. No, given the assignment as an associate 13 or assistant to Father, even on a pro tem basis, he 14 had the faculties to work there in that parish. 15 Q. Do you remember having any conversations 16 with Father Donelan regarding that assignment? 17 A. I don't recall it, but, again, I have to 18 assume that I did. I don't like to make assumptions, 19 but we did go through the Personnel Board, and I 20 spoke with the pastor, who was more than happy to 21 work with him. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, I've got 23 4:30. 24 MR. TINKLER: Okay. This is a good time. 25 (The deposition concluded at 4:30 p.m.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1189 1 John/Jane Does vs. Roman Catholic Church of the 2 Archdiocese of Santa Fe, Inc., et al. 3 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 4 If there are any typographical errors to your deposition, indicate them below. 5 PAGE LINE 6 Change to 7 Change to 8 Change to 9 Change to 10 Any other changes to your deposition are to be listed 11 below with a statement as to the reason for such change. 12 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I, ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, do hereby certify 20 that I have read the foregoing pages of my testimony taken on October 4, 1994, as transcribed, and that 21 the same is a true and correct transcript of the testimony given by me in this deposition except for 22 the changes made. 23 24 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 25 Date CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1190 1 IN THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., 22 a New Mexico Corporation, et al. 23 Defendants. 24 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1191 1 I, DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR No. 63, DO HEREBY 2 CERTIFY that on October 4, 1994, the deposition of 3 Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez was taken before me at 4 the request of, and sealed original thereof retained 5 by: 6 Stephen E. Tinkler Merit Bennett 7 Robert J. Reese Attorneys for Plaintiffs 8 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that copies of this 10 certificate have been mailed or delivered to the 11 following counsel and parties not represented by 12 counsel appearing at the taking of the deposition: 13 Karen C. Kennedy 14 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 11648 15 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 16 Arthur O. Beach Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese 17 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 18 Peter S. Kierst 19 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 35670 20 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5670 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1192 1 Richard A. Winterbottom Attorney for Defendant Archbishop 2 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 3 Alan K. Konrad 4 Attorney for Defendant Servants of the Paraclete 5 P.O. Box 25687 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 6 Travis R. Collier 7 Attorney for Defendant Lovelace Institutes P.O. Box 1888 8 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 9 Kenneth L. Harrigan Attorney for Defendant Pecos Benedictine 10 Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family P.O. Box 2168 11 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 12 Richard D. Yeomans Attorney for Greek Orthodox Archdiocese 13 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 14 I FURTHER CERTIFY that examination of this 15 transcript and signature of the witness was 16 required by the witness and all parties present. 17 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the recoverable cost of 18 the original and one copy of the deposition to 19 Stephen E. Tinkler is $793.10. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I did administer the 21 oath to the witness herein prior to the taking of 22 this deposition, that I did thereafter report in 23 stenographic shorthand the questions and answers set 24 forth herein, and the foregoing is a true and 25 accurate transcript of the proceeding had upon the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1193 1 taking of this deposition, to the best of my ability. 2 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither employed by 3 nor related to any of the parties or attorneys in 4 this case, and that I have no interest whatsoever in 5 the final disposition of this case in any court. 6 7 DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR, RPR 8 Certified Court Reporter No. 63 License Expires: 12/31/94 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092

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