Volume 1 – Volume 1 of Part 1
Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez

January 12, 1994

Volume 1 – January 12, 1994
Volume 2 – January 13, 1994
Volume 3 – January 14, 1994
Volume 4 – January 15, 1994

Volume 5 – October 3, 1994
Volume 6 – October 4, 1994
Volume 7 – October 5, 1994
Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994

Page 1



5 Plaintiffs,

6 vs. CV-91-11688

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
10 _________________________________________________________

11 JOHN DOES IV and V,

12 Plaintiffs,

13 vs. CV-91-11989

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
17 _________________________________________________________


19 Plaintiffs,

20 vs. CV-91-12302

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
Page 2

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-92-00128

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
7 ________________________________________________________


9 Plaintiffs,

10 vs. CV-92-00312

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
14 _________________________________________________________

15 JOHN DOE XI through XVII,

16 Plaintiffs,

17 vs. CV-92-09746

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
Page 3

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-93-02879

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

7 Defendants.
vs. CV-93-02881
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
15 _________________________________________________________


17 Plaintiff,

18 vs. CV-93-02883

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

22 Defendants.

Page 4

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-93-06343

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

7 Defendants.
vs. CV-93-07186
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profiT corporation,
15 ________________________________________________________


17 Plaintiff,

18 vs. CV-93-07188

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

22 Defendants.

Page 5
vs. CV-92-06892
5 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE SERVANTS
7 non-profit corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,

8 Defendants.

10 Plaintiff,

11 vs. CV-92-08011

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
14 OF THE PARACLETE, INC, a New Mexico non-profit
corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,
16 ________________________________________________________


18 Plaintiffs,

19 vs. CV-92-08933

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,

22 Defendants.

Page 6
vs. CV-92-10319
6 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,


January 12, 1994
13 11:28 AM
5625 Isleta Boulevard, SW
14 Albuquerque, NM



18 REPORTED BY: Jenifer L. Russin, RPR-CM, NM CCR #182
Russin Reporting
19 317 Commercial, NE, Suite 200-G
Albuquerque, NM 87102
Page 7
1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 For the Plaintiffs:

Two Woodward Center
4 700 Lomas, NE, Suite 100
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
425 Sandoval
8 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504

160 E. Flaming Gorge
10 Green River, Wyoming 82935

12 For the Witness:

Attorneys at Law
14 718 Central, SW
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

For the Defendant Archdiocese of Santa Fe:
18 6400 Uptown Blvd, NE, Suite 630E
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110

414 Silver Avenue, SW
21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
23 6400 Uptown Blvd., NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110

Page 8
1 For the Archdiocese of Santa Fe (cont.):

707 Broadway, NE
3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

5 For the Servants of the Paraclete:

500 Marquette, NW, Suite 1100
7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

Also Present:
Jerry Goffe





16 I N D E X


19 By Mr. Pasternack 9
23 1. Order on Motion for Protective Order 9
Page 9
1 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
2 screen, is 11:32 AM. Today is January 12th, 1994. We are
3 on the record. Could the court reporter please swear the
4 deponent in.
6 After having been first duly sworn under oath, was
7 questioned and testified as follows:
10 Q. Please state your name.
11 A. Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez.
12 Q. And will it be acceptable to you, sir, if I
13 refer to you during the deposition as Archbishop?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Thank you. Archbishop, as you know, we have
16 sought to take your deposition today, and Judge Ashby has
17 entered his own order, which I'll attach as Exhibit 1 to
18 the deposition, and that will guide the course and scope
19 of the deposition. I'm sure you've been made familiar
20 with it by now.
21 [Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.]
22 MS. KENNEDY: Do you wish him to read that?
23 MR. PASTERNACK: I assume he's aware of it.
24 Do you have any --
25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No, we can continue. If
Page 10
1 we need to look at it over the lunch hour, we can, unless
2 we come to an issue that requires reference to the order.
3 MR. PASTERNACK: Okay, fine.
4 Q. Sir, are you currently under any medication?
5 A. No, sir, I'm not.
6 Q. Have you been under any medication within the
7 last 30 days?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Where do you currently consider your residence
10 to be?
11 A. For the sake of this deposition, it would be the
12 same address as my attorney here.
13 Q. When you're not here in Albuquerque, where do
14 you physically reside?
15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We'll object to that,
16 Mr. Pasternack. That matter was broached during the
17 course of our hearing on Wednesday. The Court has not
18 made a specific order with regard to Exhibit 1, but it was
19 clear during the course of that hearing that the
20 Archbishop was not revealing his current location.
21 If you'd like to go to the judge over the lunch
22 hour with regard to that question, we don't have any
23 problem with that.
24 Q. Are you declining to answer, Archbishop?
25 A. Yes.
Page 11
1 Q. What is your current status with the Archidocese
2 of Santa Fe?
3 A. I'm retired, retired archbishop.
4 Q. Do you have priestly faculties still?
5 A. An archbishop has, in his capacity, has
6 faculties to function anywhere in the world, unless they
7 are limited by the local ordinary. My function at this
8 time is simply the celebration of Mass.
9 Q. Do you continue to celebrate Mass on occasion?
10 A. Oh, yes, daily.
11 Q. And do you celebrate only privately or publicly,
12 as well?
13 A. Privately, actually.
14 Q. Are you permitted to celebrate Mass publicly?
15 A. I have not sought that permission, but I would
16 be permitted, yes.
17 Q. Are there any restrictions on your priestly
18 functions which have been imposed by any diocese or
19 archidocese?
20 A. None.
21 Q. And none by Rome?
22 A. None.
23 Q. Have you met with the Pope in the past 12
24 months?
25 A. No, I have not.
Page 12
1 Q. Have you communicated with him by telephone in
2 the past year?
3 A. No, I have not.
4 Q. You will recall, sir, that when your deposition
5 was taken before, there was discussion about a softball
6 backstop falling on your head and a car wreck in 1983?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Within the past year, have you received any sort
9 of medical, psychological or neuropsychological treatment
10 or counseling for any injuries resulting -- any deficits
11 resulting from those injuries?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you feel that your memory is functioning at
14 its normal level today?
15 A. I would have to assume that it is, yes.
16 Q. Have you had any sort of psychometric testing
17 within the past year?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you received within the past year any
20 psychological or psychiatric care or counseling?
21 A. Counseling.
22 Q. Was it a psychiatrist or a psychologist?
23 A. It is a psychiatrist.
24 Q. Can you tell me that person's name?
25 A. No, I would prefer not to, simply because it is
Page 13
1 also concerned with the location of where I'm at, and I've
2 been assured that we do not have to reveal that.
3 Q. So you're declining to answer?
4 A. I'm declining to answer, yes, sir.
5 Q. Did this psychiatrist ever place you on any
6 medication?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did the psychiatrist refer you for any sort of
9 testing whatsoever, MMPI, Beck, any of them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How frequently do you see the psychiatrist?
12 A. Oh, probably on an average of twice a week. The
13 type of information that we share with is also spiritual.
14 It is not what you'd call typical therapeutic care.
15 It's --
16 Q. I know there are some psychiatrists and
17 psychologists who are priests.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would this happen to be a priest?
20 A. The psychiatrist is a religious.
21 Q. So that would be a member of some order?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you feel you can tell me what order he is a
24 member of?
25 A. No, I cannot.
Page 14
1 Q. Would you be willing, Archbishop, to allow us to
2 examine the medical records pertaining to your injury in
3 1961 and your injury in 1983?
4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, I think
5 we've stated, as Archbishop's attorneys, that we are not
6 willing to offer you those records.
7 Q. Because we are taking this deposition in some
8 cases where I believe your deposition has not been taken
9 before, perhaps we could run through your, briefly,
10 through your background. Would you just give us a
11 narrative of when and where trained, ordained, etc.
12 A. I was born in Socorro, New Mexico. The date was
13 March 20th, 1934. My parents were Julius and Priscilla
14 Sanchez. I have two brothers, both live in this
15 community: Rozier, who is a retired district judge, and
16 Julius, who is a pharmacist, works for the Veterans
17 Hospital.
18 My education was received at Mount Carmel School
19 elementary school for eight years. I attended the public
20 high school in Socorro for one year. I attended St.
21 Mary's High School in Phoenix, Arizona, for one year, and
22 then entered the seminary, Immaculate Heart of Mary
23 Seminary in Santa Fe, to begin my training and formation
24 hopefully for priesthood.
25 I spent four years at the minor seminary in Santa Fe,
Page 15
1 and then was asked to complete my studies and preparation
2 for the priesthood at the North American College in Rome,
3 Italy. That is a college where seminarians from
4 throughout America stay, at the North American College,
5 but classes were actually studied or taken at the
6 Gregorian University in Rome.
7 I completed my studies in 1960, but I was ordained on
8 December 20th, 1959 at the North American College in Rome.
9 Upon completion of my studies in July 1960, then I
10 returned to the Archidocese of Santa Fe for assignment.
11 Q. And would you describe what those assignments
12 were?
13 A. My first assignment was to be an associate
14 pastor or an assistant pastor, as some people call them,
15 at Anunciation Parish here in Albuquerque. And I was
16 asked at the same time to be one of the staff members, a
17 teacher, at St. Pius X High School in Albuquerque.
18 I taught and remained in that position for one year;
19 and then at the conclusion of that year, I was asked by
20 the archbishop at that time, Archbishop Edwin V. Byrne, to
21 plan to attend studies in canon law at Catholic University
22 in Washington, D.C.
23 I entered the Catholic University, then, in the fall,
24 and was there for one year. At the conclusion of that
25 year of study, the Archbishop asked me again if I would
Page 16
1 then return to St. Pius as a staff member and assist in
2 their programs, which I did.
3 I remained at St. Pius, then, until 1968, at which
4 time the next archbishop, who was James Peter Davis, asked
5 me to accept the position of pastor in a northeastern area
6 of New Mexico. It was a pastorship of two communities of
7 Roy and Mosquero, and they were combined into one parish
8 for my purposes.
9 I remained there for three years, after which time I
10 was asked by the archbishop to then assume another
11 position, back here in Albuquerque, and I moved back to
12 Albuquerque, then, in September of 1971, and I assumed a
13 position of pastor of San Felipe Parish in Old Town,
14 Albuquerque. I remained there for three years until my --
15 I was named as the archbishop. I was named archbishop.
16 The announcement took place June 4th of that year, 1974,
17 and I was formally ordained and installed in that position
18 on July 25th, 1974.
19 Q. And you served in that position continuously
20 until what date?
21 A. Until my resignation was accepted. And I was
22 notified of that acceptance in early April of 1993. I
23 cannot recall the date, but it was on Monday of Holy Week.
24 I would have to go to a calendar to see what the actual
25 date was. It was early April of 1993.
Page 17
1 Q. Are the things that you have just recited about
2 your personal history, education and work experience
3 contained on a written resume, or did you just recall all
4 those things?
5 A. I recalled all of those things, but they are
6 written down in resume form, surely.
7 Q. Have you reviewed your resume in the past few
8 months?
9 A. No, I have not. I haven't had a chance to.
10 Q. And you didn't review it today?
11 A. No, I did not review it today.
12 Q. When you indicate that you are retired from the
13 Santa Fe Archidocese, are you receiving a pension from the
14 archidocese?
15 A. The Archidocese of Santa Fe has a retirement
16 fund which had been worked on to help it become adequate
17 for priests for many years, and it is a separately
18 incorporated body with its own constitution that governs
19 its activities. And when I submitted my resignation or my
20 resignation was accepted, then petition was made to the
21 governing board of the retirement board of the archidocese
22 to consider myself for retirement. And I understand that
23 that was granted and made effective in early July 1993.
24 Q. Does the current archbishop, Archbishop Sheehan,
25 communicate in any fashion with your psychiatrist?
Page 18
1 A. Not that I know of.
2 Q. Have you authorized your psychiatrist to release
3 or reveal information to the current archbishop?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is there any person to whom you have authorized
6 your psychiatrist to reveal information about your mental
7 status?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is the Archidocese of Santa Fe paying for the
10 bills that are incurred in the therapy with the
11 psychiatrist?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you at liberty to tell me how that's being
14 paid?
15 A. The insurance under which I was covered was able
16 to cover 50 percent of the bills, up to when they reach a
17 limit, and they no longer contribute to it.
18 I tried to contribute to that payment myself, when I
19 was able, but I was informed by that community that
20 whatever was available was fine. If I could not pay
21 anything, there would be no obligation. So in a sense, it
22 is a service that is offered to me.
23 Q. Have you been given any projections on how long
24 you will need to remain in this therapy?
25 A. No, no projections at all. It's -- we simply go
Page 19
1 from, I guess, meeting to meeting, and it's helped me look
2 at my own life and my own spiritual life, and I'm grateful
3 for that opportunity.
4 Q. You do not have any plans to terminate this
5 therapy in the near future; is that right?
6 A. I would have to discuss that with the therapist,
7 actually. But from my point of view, I don't see it
8 terminating in a very near future, no.
9 Q. Has the therapist, to your knowledge, discussed
10 your psychiatric condition with any other members of the
11 religious community from which he works?
12 A. No, not to my knowledge.
13 Q. And have you discussed your spiritual and
14 psychiatric needs with any other members of that
15 community?
16 A. Not really, no. "How are you feeling," "Feeling
17 fine," this type of thing. But no in-depth discussion.
18 Q. Have you been hospitalized at any time since
19 April of '93?
20 A. No, I have not been.
21 Q. Other than with your attorney, Mr. Winterbottom,
22 did you have any conversations with any other attorneys
23 before coming here today for this deposition?
24 A. Most of my conversation was with Mr.
25 Winterbottom. I had opportunity to speak with Karen
Page 20
1 Kennedy for about an hour two nights ago.
2 Q. Was that in Albuquerque or by phone?
3 A. That was here in Albuquerque.
4 Q. Have you spoken with Father Wolf about the
5 deposition?
6 A. Other than for him to tell me that he's taking
7 care of the arrangements.
8 Q. Have you spoken to Archbishop Sheehan about the
9 deposition?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Anyone else?
12 A. No, no one.
13 Q. At the time of your conversation with Ms.
14 Kennedy, did you consider her to be your lawyer?
15 MS. KENNEDY: Mr. Pasternack, you are well
16 aware that I'm counsel of record for the Archidocese. In
17 my meetings with the Archbishop, it has been
18 attorney-client privilege, and I will not allow him to
19 answer any questions about those meetings.
20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join in that Mr.
21 Pasternack. During all the conversations that the
22 Archbishop has described of two nights ago, I was present
23 with Ms. Kennedy.
24 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Just to make sure the
25 record is clear, Archbishop, I didn't ask the content of
Page 21
1 the conversation. I asked if you considered her to be
2 your lawyer.
3 A. Mr. Winterbottom is my lawyer. Karen Kennedy
4 has been the lawyer associated with the Archidocese of
5 Santa Fe. She is not considered my personal lawyer.
6 Q. And would it be correct to say, you are no
7 longer an official of the Archidocese of Santa Fe?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. And now the question is, are you declining to
10 discuss what you discussed with Ms. Kennedy during that
11 meeting?
12 MS. KENNEDY: I'm instructing him not to
13 answer, Mr. Pasternack, because, as you know, it is
14 attorney/client privilege.
15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join in that.
16 Q. While those of us here may know what
17 precipitated your resignation as archbishop, those who may
18 be viewing this videotape as jurors in the future may not
19 know what precipitated your resignation. Could you
20 describe in your own words what motivated you to tender
21 your resignation?
22 A. Yes, sir. I reached the decision to tender my
23 resignation due to the fact that three women had come to
24 yourself and had offered information to you and
25 subsequently went to "60 Minutes," a national television
Page 22
1 program, where they stated that we had had a relationship
2 in the 1970s, and they felt that this should be published.
3 Once that became public knowledge, I felt that it
4 would become an issue with the people of the archidocese,
5 that there would be those who would feel that they could
6 still accept me as their archbishop, but there would be
7 others who would probably feel they couldn't. And I have
8 always felt that unity within any church group is
9 essential, just as unity within a country is essential.
10 And if I could no longer effectively lead the church as
11 their archbishop, uniting them together, then it would be
12 best for me to submit my resignation and allow another
13 person to be appointed in my place.
14 So I felt that that would be the proper action to
15 take, which I did take.
16 Q. I understand that you've fairly recently had an
17 opportunity to review or watch the "60 Minutes" program;
18 is that right?
19 A. I have not watched the "60 Minutes" program at
20 all.
21 Q. The reason I ask the question was I believe that
22 Father Wolf indicated to the newspapers that you had
23 watched it, but I'm glad we're clarified that.
24 A. No, I have not watched it.
25 Q. Has anyone told you what the allegations of the
Page 23
1 women were?
2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: At this time, I'll
3 object to the extent that that inquires into the
4 attorney/client relationship. Aside from conversations
5 with attorneys, I'll allow him to answer the question.
6 A. No one could really tell me specifically or, you
7 know, in detail what was contained. They mentioned
8 general allegations that the young women had made. And
9 that was about the extent of it.
Page 32
4 Q. In the general philosophy of the Catholic
5 Church -- I'd like to ask you a few questions about
6 that -- is lying a sin?
7 A. Lying is considered a sin, yes. And if it's in
8 a serious case, it's considered more serious.
9 Q. Is there ever a justification for lying in the
10 philosophy of the Church, as you understand it?
11 A. No. Lying is considered a falsification of the
12 truth, and it is considered sinful. A person might lie to
13 save their life. For instance, during the Second World
14 War when, say, the Nazis were trying to round up many of
15 our brothers of the Jewish faith, they may have lied so as
16 to save their own children or their lives. That might be
17 considered -- the circumstances might be prevailing for
18 them to be able to do that, because the evil that they
19 were avoiding would be greater than the act of lying. So
20 there are occasions when lying of that nature would be
21 permissible.
22 Q. Is that type of lying referred to with any
23 special appellation in canon law or Church doctrine?
24 A. I don't recall it myself. It probably has a
25 technical reference, a technical expression, but I don't
Page 33
1 recall that expression.
2 Q. Is it a mental reservation?
3 A. Possibly. It could be possibly called that.
4 The example I used would be obviously more than a mental
5 reservation. It would simply be saying that they were not
6 in order to save their life.
7 Maybe the mental reservation would be that if they
8 told the truth, their life would be taken, and that's a
9 greater good that they have an obligation to preserve. So
10 possibly a mental reservation.
11 Q. Can you give us any guidance on where the line
12 is. I think it's clear when you say that one can lie to
13 save their life, that's acceptable in Church doctrine.
14 Can one lie to save their reputation?
15 A. No, that would not be acceptable.
16 Q. Can one lie to save the reputation of the Church
17 or of the diocese or archidocese?
18 A. That would not be acceptable either.
19 Q. Can one lie to save the reputation of a brother
20 priest?
21 A. No, that would not be acceptable either. I'm
22 not a moralist, an expert in moral theology, but these
23 examples that you have cited seem to me to fall under the
24 concept that lying itself is wrong.
25 Q. In your extensive education for the priesthood,
Page 34
1 were you required to receive instruction in the promises
2 of chastity and celibacy?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you generally explain what chastity and
5 celibacy are in the views of the Church?
6 A. Yes. Celibacy is a state, a single state, or a
7 promise to live a life as a single person without the
8 privilege of marriage; and it includes, then, a promise to
9 refrain from those circumstances that might tend to break
10 that promise or that state of celibacy.
11 Chastity is a moral virtue, as looked at by the Roman
12 Catholic Church, and it includes the avoidance of all
13 actions or circumstances that might lead to sins against
14 the virtue of chastity which surround the Sixth
15 Commandment, that of sexuality.
16 The virtue of chastity, as the Roman Catholic Church
17 observes it, looks at it, is incumbent upon all people
18 within the Church. Married couples are obliged to live a
19 chaste life within their own vows of marriage. Single
20 individuals, whether they are religious or simply single
21 without vows, are also obliged to live a chaste life to
22 the best of their ability.
23 So chastity is a virtue. Celibacy is a state of
24 life.
25 Q. When you say chastity is a virtue, does that
Page 35
1 mean that when a priest takes a promise or a vow of
2 chastity, it's a goal rather than a necessity to comply
3 with that vow or promise?
4 A. It's not a vow of chastity that the diocesan
5 priests take, but let's use the word "promise." I think
6 that would be easy to understand. Whenever a promise is
7 taken, it is taken, looking at chastity, as the goal, as
8 the ideal. And we strive to live a chaste life as
9 perfectly as possible, and that living out of a chaste
10 life is encouraged by surrounding yourself with what we
11 call a spiritual life, a spiritual structure, which
12 involves regular prayer, which involves frequent
13 confession, which involves a support group of other
14 individuals who can talk with you and share encouragement
15 to be faithful to your life of chastity or religious.
16 Q. There may be people seeing this tape at some
17 point in a trial, for example, who are not Catholic. And
18 when you use words like "encourage" and "goal," that
19 suggests to me -- and I'd like to ask you if my
20 interpretation is wrong -- that a breach of the promise of
21 chastity is sort of optional if you find it too difficult
22 to comply with?
23 A. No, I am not trying to indicate that. I'm
24 saying that given human nature, the vow of chastity or
25 just the life -- a chaste life for any individual will be
Page 36
1 fraught with difficulties throughout their life because of
2 human nature, just as the promise or the virtue of honesty
3 is difficult throughout a person's life. But we're
4 obliged to live those virtues as perfectly as we can.
5 Q. Is it considered by the Church, as you interpret
6 Church law and doctrine, to be a sin for a priest to
7 breach the promise of chastity?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. Is there a degree of sin that you could classify
10 it as?
11 A. Yes. There is what we call venial sin or mortal
12 sin. That is a less serious offense against that virtue,
13 or a more serious offense against that virtue.
14 Generally speaking, in dealing with actions in
15 reference to the Sixth Commandment, or the vow of
16 chastity, they would be considered serious, unless there
17 are circumstances which might affect the full willful
18 action by that individual.
19 Just to give you an example -- would an example be in
20 order?
21 Q. I was getting ready to ask for one, so yes, I'd
22 appreciate it.
23 A. I've anticipated your request.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. I think the easiest example that I could use for
Page 37
1 a general understanding would be a person who's
2 intoxicated. A person who is intoxicated, I think even
3 civilly, is considered not to be in full control of their
4 own faculties or their full will. And therefore, actions
5 committed under those circumstances would have to be
6 looked at individually and perhaps differently than from
7 similar actions committed by someone else.
8 Objectively, they're the same actions, but
9 subjectively, there's been a change for the individual
10 because he was not in total possession of his faculties of
11 mind or of will.
12 The same thing pertains to a contract. We know that
13 if two people are to get married, they're entering into a
14 contract. If one feels forced, then the free will of that
15 individual has been impeded, and he's not entering or
16 she's not entering into the will totally free. And so
17 subjectively, it's not the same.
18 So I'm saying that there are circumstances for any
19 situation, any moral situation, which can mitigate the
20 culpability of an individual regarding whatever action it
21 may be that he has taken.
22 Q. Would you refer to that as situation ethics?
23 A. To a degree, but it's not really what situation
24 ethics is. This is a technical expression that the Church
25 has actually not approved of, because it was a movement by
Page 38
1 some theologians saying that every ethical question really
2 does not have objective guilt to it, that it all depends
3 upon the situation, and the situation can mitigate things.
4 And it was a denial of objective truth or objective
5 morality, and so that was never approved by the Roman
6 Catholic Church, even though some theologians held that.
7 But I'd say it's akin to that inasmuch as there are
8 some circumstances which do affect the subjective guilt or
9 less guilt of an individual because of the presence of
10 that circumstance, mitigating circumstance.
11 Q. Does the Church take the position, as you
12 interpret its rules, that there is objective evil?
13 A. Oh, yes, yes. The Church, in fact, just
14 recently, within the last year, the Holy Father has come
15 out with a document on ethics, on morality, in which he
16 stresses that objective evil and objective truth, once
17 again, because of a tendency within the world community,
18 not just within one area or one country, to deny objective
19 truth or objective right or wrong.
Page 45
21 Q. Once you became archbishop, did you feel a
22 greater responsibility to comply with all priestly
23 promises to set an example thereby for the priests who
24 served under you?
25 A. I don't know whether I could characterize it as
Page 46
1 a feeling of having a greater responsibility. And I say
2 that because I believe that every priest feels a sense of
3 responsibility within themselves to live out their own
4 promises before God as perfectly as they are able. And I
5 don't recall -- I did sense a greater responsibility
6 because the number of people who I would have to minister
7 to was much greater. And I think that that was the
8 overwhelming feeling that I felt at that time.
9 Q. Did the fact that you had succumbed on occasion
10 to the temptations of the flesh give you a greater
11 sensitivity to similar failings by your brother priests?
12 A. What do you mean by "sensitivity"?
13 Q. When you found out that other priests had
14 violated their promises of chastity, did it occur to you,
15 "I too have known the temptations of the flesh. I too
16 have been weak," and did you thereby tend to be more
17 forgiving of them than you otherwise would have been?
18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, could
19 you, for a matter of clarification, describe exactly what
20 temptations of the flesh you're discussing with regard to
21 others priests, so the archbishop can phrase his response
22 in terms of ones that were, for instance, heterosexual,
23 homosexual or pedophilia?
24 Q. Do you understand the question, Archbishop?
25 A. Yes, I think I do.
Page 47
1 Q. Go ahead.
2 A. What are you talking specifically to?
3 Q. What I'm asking you is that because you had
4 known the temptations of the flesh and apparently, on
5 occasion, given in to them, when you were advised -- which
6 we will discuss later we're going to contend was on
7 numerous occasions.
8 A. Surely.
9 Q. -- that other priests had similarly fallen to
10 the temptations of the flesh, did your own failings make
11 you more sensitive and more understanding?
12 MR. KONRAD: I have an objection to the
13 form of the question, the "numerous times" reference not
14 necessarily being in evidence.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. I would say offhand that I have always been a
17 compassionate person, and that aside from any personal
18 failures. And I think I've learned my compassion both
19 from the example of my family, friends, as well as
20 seminary training, because part of the Church's training,
21 our theology, is to follow the compassion of the Christ.
22 Christ did not come into the world to save those who
23 were saints but, in his own words, to save those who are
24 in need of the physician, those who have sinned. And he
25 even spoke to the woman caught in adultery to those who
Page 48
1 surrounded her, "Let those who are without sin cast the
2 first stone." And he said this not to justify evil or to
3 justify sin, but rather to emphasize the need for
4 compassion, because, "There for but the grace of God go
5 I."
6 I had always been steeped in that concept of
7 compassion. I cannot say honestly whether I was more
8 compassionate to any man who admitted guilt to me because
9 of my own sin. I would like to believe that I would have
10 been as compassionate if I had never sinned, because that
11 is how I was trained, and that is part of my character.
12 I would say this, that knowing my own failure, I
13 would have been able to speak directly to them perhaps
14 with more serious admonition about the care for their own
15 spirituality and their spiritual life, how to improve
16 their own life and to be honest before God.
17 I suppose it would be like -- well, maybe like a
18 parent, a parent who was imperfect and recognizes their
19 own failure as a parent, and then they catch their son or
20 their daughter in whatever, and they have to correct them.
21 And they are sensitive to the failure of the son or
22 daughter, but I think that they would probably correct
23 them just as sternly to encourage them not to repeat that
24 in the future. I think they would show sensitivity -- or
25 compassion is the word that I would use. At the same
Page 49
1 time, I don't think they would be approving of the sin, in
2 other words, of the son or the daughter, and that's why I
3 use the example of Christ.
4 Q. Would it be correct to say, Archbishop, that
5 substance abuse by priests is not permitted in your
6 understanding of Catholic moral teachings?
7 A. I think substance abuse by any human being is
8 really against the law of God, because it's the
9 destruction of the human person, our life. Life is God's
10 gift to us, and when we abuse it in any form, then we are
11 going against the Commandment that says, "Thou shalt not
12 kill," which is yourself, and so substance abuse would be
13 violating that.
14 Q. And would your view be the same -- I'm sure it
15 would -- as to matters of child pornography? Is it
16 impermissible for a priest, or indeed any Catholic, to
17 engage in the production of child pornography?
18 A. Absolutely not. That would be, again, very
19 sinful and very wrong against society, as well, certainly.
20 Q. Do you know other bishops or archbishops from
21 throughout the country and the world who have been
22 sexually active?
23 A. There was one bishop who resigned years ago, and
24 I can't even recall his name. He was from Minnesota, but
25 he resigned as a bishop in order to marry a woman, and so
Page 50
1 I would have to presume that he was active. In fact, he
2 lived in Santa Fe for a while. I don't recall his name.
3 It was a little bit before my time.
4 There was another archbishop from Atlanta who
5 resigned his position because of allegations.
6 There was another that I heard about -- and I don't
7 know the particulars on it -- that was from Ireland,
8 perhaps three or four years ago, five years ago, I don't
9 know the particulars, that he also resigned because of
10 allegations.
11 Q. Those were the stories that were rather public.
12 Do you know of any bishops or archbishops who have been
13 sexually active where it has not been publicly revealed?
14 A. No, sir, I do not.
15 Q. I apologize for asking this question. Have you
16 ever had any children?
17 A. No, sir, I have never had any children. Now, I
18 want to repeat that, so that it's very clear. I have
19 never had any children. And I understand it's difficult
20 to ask a question like that.
21 Q. During your service as a priest of the
22 archidocese and then as archbishop of the Archidocese of
23 Santa Fe, were there priests whom you knew to be sexually
24 active?
25 A. As an archbishop, I had occasion to meet with a
Page 51
1 priest, actually with two, over my tenure of nearly 19
2 years, that had in fact fathered children. And it was
3 brought to my attention, and so we had to take those steps
4 that were necessary for those occasions.
5 Q. One of those was Roger Martinez, I'm sure?
6 A. Yes, it was Father Roger Martinez, exactly.
7 Q. Who is the other one?
8 A. Father John Esquivel.
9 Q. Now, you say that certain steps were taken?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Both men remained as parish priests. What steps
12 were taken?
13 A. They were sent to therapy. They were obliged to
14 provide for the child. So that their human obligations
15 were cared for, as well. And they were removed from their
16 positions until therapy had been completed and
17 recommendations for any future assignment would be given.
18 Q. Now, my question had been intended to be a
19 little more broad, not just the priests who had fathered
20 children, but the priests who had in fact been sexually
21 active. Were there priests of the Archidocese of Santa Fe
22 during your tenure as archbishop whom you learned to be
23 sexually active with boys, men, women, sexually active in
24 any way?
25 A. Cases were brought to my attention or
Page 52
1 allegations regarding priests during my 19 years; and in
2 some instances, admissions took place of their sexual
3 activity. In other cases, there was no admission. And so
4 I did have occasion to meet with priests about whom sexual
5 activity was alleged.
6 Q. Please give us the names of some of those
7 priests whose names you recall as being presented to you
8 under such circumstances.
9 A. The name of was one name.
10 was another name. was another name.
11 was another name. Then I would add to that
12 was another name. I've just referred to
13 him. was another name. was
14 another name. was another name. I'm going flat
15 on my trying to recall others.
16 Q. ?
17 A. Yes, oh, yes, .
18 Q. ?
19 A. Those were allegations -- right,
20 , I recall that name.
25 A. Yes, that came --
Page 53
1 MR. BARDACKE: Excuse me, I didn't hear
2 that name.
3 Q. ?
4 A. It requires a special spelling. Have you a list
5 that maybe I could --
6 Q. I'll just go down them one by one.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Is he one that you had heard of as being
9 involved in sexual activity?
10 A. Yes, this occurred just about the time I was
11 leaving, I believe.
16 Q. Anthony Gallegos, whom I believe was raised with
17 you in Socorro?
18 A. No, he was not.
19 Q. Wasn't he?
20 A. No. Anthony Gallegos left very shortly after he
21 was ordained a priest for this archidocese, and he left to
22 CaliforniA. We never saw him again. I am unaware of any
23 allegations that were raised against him. I was not the
24 archbishop when he was ordained.
Page 54
6 Q. Barney Bissanette?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you aware of such allegations when you were
9 archbishop?
10 A. Not allegations. There was talk, but not
11 allegations. I think allegations came about, again -- I'm
12 not certain when, actually, but not while I was the
13 archbishop.
24 Q. ?
25 A. That case became a public case. It was never
Page 55
1 taken to trial or completed, but the allegations were made
2 during my tenure.
9 Q. ?
10 A. Yes. Some statement was made -- I don't know
11 the person. I did not handle that at all. Father Wolf
12 informed me that some allegation had been made after his
13 retirement.
14 Q. Robert Kirsch?
15 A. The case was handled by yourself.
16 Q. Had you heard any such allegations of sexual
17 impropriety against Father Vincent Lipinski before he was
18 arrested?
19 A. Before he was arrested, there was one notice
20 brought to me thirdhand, but no allegation.
Page 56
5 Q. ?
6 A. One allegation, yes.
7 Q. Charlie Martinez?
8 A. No, nothing.
23 Q. Father Luis Martinez?
24 A. No, sir.
Page 57
2 Q. Father ?
3 A. One allegation was made, yes.
4 Q. Was that before or after you became archbishop?
5 A. After I became archbishop, yes. I can't really
6 recall much about it, but the name rings a bell.
7 Q. Did you relieve him from his duties at
8 for sexually molesting young girls there?
9 A. Your statement is a very accusing one. He was
10 not accused of molesting young girls at . That
11 was not the allegation.
12 Q. What was the allegation?
13 A. I could be mistaken, and so I don't want to be
14 held to it, because my memory is not accurate. I did not
15 handle that individual case. He belongs to a religious
16 community, and so it was placed in their hands, the entire
17 thing. So I didn't do the investigation, but the
18 community did.
19 Q. What do you recall the allegations to have been?
20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you remember,
21 Archbishop.
22 A. I think it was solicitation, but there was no
23 actual contact with people.
24 Q. Solicitation of girls or boys?
25 A. Of a lady.
Page 58
13 Q. Were there any allegations of sexual impropriety
14 brought up during your tenure as archbishop against Father
15 ?
16 A. One.
Page 59
23 Q. Father Ron Roth?
24 A. I don't know who Father Ron Roth was.
Page 60
2 Q. Father Edward Rutowski?
3 A. Once, one occasion.
14 Q. Okay. Father Ignacio Tafoya?
15 A. Nothing was brought to my attention directly,
16 sir.
17 Q. How about indirectly?
18 A. Indirectly this way: Father Tafoya himself
19 said, "Archbishop, someone has made a statement to Sister
20 about me," and, he said, "it's a lie. I just wanted you
21 to know that a statement has been made."
22 So no statement was made directly to me. It was from
23 the priest himself.
24 Q. Father ?
25 A. No, no allegations were made to me against him
Page 61
1 either.
2 Q. Did you know whether or not Father was
3 gay?
4 A. I was never certain. I was never certain. He
5 never gave me any indications that he was gay, never did
6 anything overtly that you might associate with a gay
7 individual.
8 On one occasion, you indicated to me that he had been
9 seen at a gay bar, and that concerned me. That put the
10 question mark in my mind.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to him about that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did he say?
14 A. He said he had been there, but he had not gone
15 there for pick-ups or anything of this nature. He had
16 gone there for a drink.
17 Q. Did you believe him?
18 A. I had no other choice but to accept his reply.
19 But I also had a few things to say.
20 Q. What?
21 A. My own personal feelings about anyone visiting a
22 gay bar.
23 Q. Were you opposed to that?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 62
1 A. That's what I mean.
2 Q. Were you responsible for his departure as the
3 for the Santa Fe Archidocese?
4 A. No, I was not. He was the when I
5 left the archidocese.
6 Q. ?
7 A. . No, no allegations were ever
8 brought against .
9 Q. Did you know whether or not he was gay?
10 A. I did not know that he was gay, and I don't know
11 that for a fact even at this moment. I'm trying to recall
12 whether he was one of those on that list that you had. I
13 think his name was there, and I think he was one that we
14 contacted and confronted with that.
15 Q. Do you recall what me said?
16 A. Denial. The same thing as Father had
17 said, pretty much the same thing.
18 Q. Did Father admit that he frequented the
19 Ranch but just say that he'd gone there for a drink?
20 A. He said he had been to -- I don't know the name
21 of the place, but he'd been to this so-called gay bar, and
22 he had gone there for a drink and wondered why that was so
23 wrong, if people go to other bars.
24 I said, "It's not the same, and you will not visit
25 that again, because it's not the place for any Roman
Page 63
1 Catholic priest, period."
2 Q. Did you ever, Archbishop, issue a memo or letter
3 to the priests of the archidocese telling them not to
4 frequent gay bars?
5 A. To the best of my recollection, I never issued
6 any memo. I can't recall that. I was very strong in
7 voicing my opinion after confronting these men. And I
8 took occasion to mention it to a meeting of one -- I think
9 it was a personnel board meeting, and I was quite upset
10 over it. But I don't recall issuing a memo.
11 Q. Were there any other priests beyond and
12 whom you personally confronted and said, "Don't go
13 to gay bars anymore"?
14 A. I confronted about four or five that you had on
15 that list, and Father Richard Olona was confronting others
16 at the same time.
17 I think Father , I think, was one that I
18 had confronted, and Father , I think, was another.
19 Those four, I remember.
20 Q. And do you know who Father Olona extended the
21 same message to?
22 A. I don't recall the rest of the list right
23 offhand. I just don't recall. If you have a list or
24 something that would help to remind me, but I just don't
25 recall it.
Page 64
1 Q. Father Olona at that time was your chancellor, I
2 take it?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. Did the allegation that there were or may have
5 been gay priests in this archidocese come as a surprise to
6 you?
7 A. It came as surprise in reference to the number
8 that you have indicated. I had heard references by
9 priests, just chit-chat, but no allegations or no definite
10 statements. But I had heard a reference to priests that
11 way in the past.
12 Q. There is a book that has been out for a while
13 called, Gay Priests. Have you ever read that?
14 A. No, I have not.
15 Q. What was your policy when you found out that a
16 priest of your archidocese was gay? Was it just to simply
17 tell them to stay out of gay bars or was it more strong
18 than that?
19 A. Well, I think to understand any reaction on my
20 part towards any person accused of being a homosexual, the
21 Church looks at homosexuality from a double point of view.
22 The first point is that people who are homosexual in their
23 orientation, you cannot blame them. In some instances,
24 this is part of their own nature. It's not an acquired
25 orientation. But if that individual is acting on his
Page 65
1 orientation, acting out his homosexuality, those actions
2 are forbidden as contrary to the virtue of the chastity
3 And considered immoral. So my reaction to these men
4 was to bring this to their attention. I did not ask them
5 directly if they were a homosexual or not, but I used the
6 occasion to make it clear to them what their
7 responsibility is before God.
8 Q. Have you reviewed your prior depositions
9 recently?
10 A. I tried to. We were very verbose in those
11 depositions, Mr. Pasternack, and they went on for hours.
12 Q. Was it both of us that were?
13 A. Well, I guess I talk too much.
14 Q. The reason I ask, sir, is that in your prior
15 deposition -- and that's what I'm thumbing for now. If
16 you don't recall it, I'll find it for you. I believe you
17 indicated that the number of priest sex offenders who had
18 been brought to your attention was more than one, but you
19 could easily count them on one hand?
20 A. Sex offenders?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Are you talking about homosexuals or --
23 MR. PASTERNACK: Let's take a break, and
24 I'll find it. Why don't we take a break.
Page 66
1 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:07, and we will
2 go off the record.
3 [A recess was taken.]
4 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
5 screen, is 2:27, and we are back on the record.
13 Q. When your previous deposition was taken in the
14 case, on April 1, 1992, you were asked beginning --
15 on Page 150, beginning at line 10, "On how many occasions
16 have you received reports or complaints of sexual abuse by
17 a diocesan priest of the archidocese since you've been
18 archbishop?"
19 And your answer, beginning at line 13 was, "I'm
20 trying to go back. It's been almost 18 years and -- let's
21 see if I can -- allegations, I suppose that would be the
22 proper word, were probably made, I would say, four or five
23 times that I can recall offhand."
24 The list that you've given us today, depending on how
25 one counts, was more like around 20. Can you offer any
Page 67
1 explanation for this apparent discrepancy in the
2 testimony?
3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I might add, for the
4 completeness of the record, the Archbishop's testimony
5 ended, "I would say, four or five times that I can recall
6 right offhand, and that's just trying to make a quick scan
7 of my memory."
8 A. I remember the deposition, on that occasion, and
9 your question -- it caught me right offhand as in a sense.
10 I don't recall either yourself or myself having any list,
11 such as we went through today. I was asked to recall from
12 my memory, and I think what I was zeroing in on, Mr.
13 Pasternack, were any cases that we had dealt with
14 formally, not just allegations or accusations, but, you
15 know, things that had resulted in some type of action.
16 The list that we dealt with today is actually quite
17 extensive. I don't know how many names you had. Many I
18 said yes to; many I said no to. But it seems to me that
19 many of these people whose names that were included on
20 there actually were not brought to my attention as the
21 archbishop but have since surfaced during all of these
22 investigations that have been taking place in the last
23 couple of years.
24 My estimate of approximately four or six was probably
25 close to accurate as to the number of cases that we have
Page 68
1 been involved in, but certainly not close to the total
2 number that we know now or that had been brought to light
3 since that time that we're dealing with at this time.
4 Q. So do you mean to say that some of the people to
5 whom you indicated affirmatively a little while ago were
6 people that you've only learned about since the lawsuits
7 started to be filed?
8 A. Right, yes.
9 Q. A little later on, we'll go into each of those
10 people in some detail and see.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now that we've taken a little break, have you
13 had an opportunity to reflect and see if there are any
14 other names that perhaps I didn't mention, but that you
15 now recall?
16 A. No, I didn't reflect in that direction, Mr.
17 Pasternack. But none came to my mind as you went through
18 an alphabetical list.
19 Q. Okay. Well, perhaps it would be appropriate to
20 spend a little time trying to break down how many occurred
21 before the lawsuits started being filed and after.
22 As you have previously testified, I'm sure that Jason
23 Sigler, as an offender, had come to your attention
24 A. Yes, surely.
25 Q. From the personnel file, I'm sure I can conclude
Page 69
1 that Arthur Perrault had come to your attention as a sex
2 offender before the lawsuits?
3 A. No. The memory that I had of Art Perrault was
4 that no formal allegation had been made against him until
5 it came to my attention a year ago in December, I believe
6 it was, by a instance. And I was brought into
7 that situation, and that is what formally brought to my
8 mind, to my memory, Art Perrault.
9 I was unaware of any former or previous allegation,
10 although I know that in an interview with one of the TV
11 commentators, he had a woman on who said that she had come
12 to me, and I'm not denying that she may have come to me,
13 but I simply could not recall, and actually right now, I
14 do not recall that. But that's not to say that she did
15 not come to me.
16 Q. Archbishop, yesterday, counsel for the
17 Archidocese faxed to us letters that had been written from
18 Dr. Joseph VanDenHeuvel to you about Arthur Perrault's
19 sexual disorder in 1981, in 1985. Does that help you
20 recall that you did, in fact, know of his sexual disorder
21 in those times?
22 A. It does. It helps to this degree: That I had
23 asked Arthur Perrault to see Dr. VanDenHeuvel and to
24 continue maintenance therapy with him. And I honestly
25 cannot recall why I had asked him to begin at that time or
Page 70
1 what incident had happened either in his life or in a
2 surrounding areA. But I had not -- at the time that we
3 had this interview, I could not recall anyone coming in
4 and alleging Art Perrault having violated that.
5 Q. Archbishop, do you recall even students at
6 St. Pius when you were a teacher there approaching you and
7 telling you that Arthur Perrault had molested them?
8 A. Students did not approach me at St. Pius, Mr.
9 Pasternack. I was at St. Pius simultaneously with Arthur
10 Perrault for about a year to a year and a half at most,
11 and then I left the school. He remained. But students
12 did not come to me personally to complain about him.
13 Q. Is that something you recall and adamantly deny
14 or you simply don't remember?
15 A. Both. I have no recall of anything of that
16 nature. I don't know why they would have come to me to
17 begin with. I was not the principal or anyone in
18 authority to have been able to act in that direction. So
19 I just don't think that would have happened. Unless you
20 have some information from people who said they came. But
21 I do not recall anything.
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, in the
23 interest of completeness in this deposition, if you do
24 have such information, we'd urge you at this time to share
25 it with the archbishop, so that he can use that
Page 71
1 information to perhaps refresh his recollection of events
2 that occurred years and years ago, and maybe we can be
3 more complete and more accurate and assist you in finding
4 the complete and accurate truth here. And he's willing to
5 do that, if you have any documents you care to share with
6 us at this time as to this issue or any other issue in the
7 deposition. The archbishop is happy to read those
8 carefully and review them.
9 Q. Archbishop, the Clive Lynn matter had been
10 brought to your attention before the lawsuits, hadn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the Ed Donnollan matter had been brought to
13 your attention before the lawsuits?
14 A. Except -- the Ed Donnollan matter was not an
15 allegation or an accusation. There was -- the biggest
16 dispute that took place, at least that I can recall
17 regarding that issue was a ranch for boys that he was
18 operating at that time. And if I recall correctly, it was
19 the --
20 Q. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in Farley, New Mexico?
21 A. You've got it. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in
22 Farley, New Mexico, and I believe it was the -- or at
23 least a branch of the New Mexico Health and Social
24 Services, whatever it was called at that time, that had
25 contacted me about what they felt were serious
Page 72
1 administrative shortcomings in the Ranch. I had received
2 some communication from people I believe who worked with
3 him at that time. I can't recall all of the contents.
4 But I know they were disturbed over the Ranch, and I had
5 to take serious steps, and I closed the Ranch, in fact,
6 and moved him out of that situation, so that whatever
7 shortcomings were occurring would not continue.
8 Q. And did part of those shortcomings include
9 allegations of sexual contact between Ed Donnollan and the
10 inmate boys at Hacienda De Los Muchachos?
11 A. There was no specific allegation regarding any
12 individual boys that I can recall. I don't recall there
13 was ever any names given to me regarding that. There may
14 have been, and I would have to see the documents.
15 Q. Do you remember generally allegations having
16 been made about sexual contact between Father Ed and the
17 boys?
18 A. There may have been general allegations made. I
19 would have to say that, yes.
20 Q. And that was before lawsuits started being
21 filed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because you closed down Father Ed's by about
24 1970 -- excuse me 1976, didn't you?
25 A. '76, I think that's about the time it was. I
Page 73
1 don't recall exactly when, but I think it was around '76.
2 But Father Ed Donnollan would not have been one I
3 would have put in that category when I was trying to think
4 back as to the number of people. He just did not occur to
5 me.
6 Q. The events with Roger Martinez, fathering the
7 child, that would have been before the lawsuits started
8 being filed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I presume that you made sure that he
11 acknowledged paternity and paid child support?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The events with John Esquivel would have
14 occurred before the lawsuits and these cases started being
15 filed, wouldn't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did John Esquivel, also at your direction,
18 acknowledge paternity and pay child support?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You know he's under indictment now, don't you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Yes. All right. And Sabine Griego, you knew
23 about those allegations long before lawsuits started being
24 filed, didn't you?
25 A. Not before this took place, no.
Page 74
1 Q. Well, didn't you, in fact, visit him at
2 Southdown in 1991?
3 A. Those allegations were brought to my attention
4 in about September of '91, I guess it was, September of
5 '91. And he was removed from his pastorship immediately,
6 and he went to Southdown, then, for his therapy, and I
7 visited there for the exit interview, which they always
8 ask the superior to come for an exit interview of their
9 candidates, and I went there for that, it must have been
10 in March of '92.
11 Q. The first of these lawsuits was filed in August
12 of '91. So you're saying that after the first of the
13 lawsuits was filed, but before the majority of them, was
14 when you learned about these allegations with regard to
15 Sabine Griego?
16 A. The information came to our attention in -- I'm
17 almost certain it was September of 91.
18 Q. Okay. In fact, hadn't you removed Sabine Griego
19 from Our Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas and put him down at
20 Queen of Heaven in Albuquerque because of similar
21 allegations?
22 A. No. Oh, no. No, that was a personnel board
23 action. It is customary to transfer our priests every six
24 to 10 years. They have that right. If they're assigned
25 as pastors, they may continue in that pastorship for a
Page 75
1 minimum of six years, or longer if it's judged that they
2 should remain. But it's not that they're going to remain
3 in anyone parish forever. So his transfer that took place
4 in our personnel board was like all the other pastors'
5 transfers. "You've been in that one area long enough. We
6 need you and your administrative abilities in another
7 parish that's larger now, and we're going to move to you
8 this parish." And that is what took place when he was
9 transferred from Our Lady of Sorrows.
10 Q. Did you learn about Bob Smith before or after
11 these lawsuits started to be filed in August of '91?
12 A. In effect, I had learned of Father Bob Smith --
13 an allegation had been made in the -- I think mid '80s,
14 around 1986 or so. And I did remove him from his parish
15 and asked him to go for treatment. He never returned to
16 parish work after that. In fact, it led to him being
17 placed in a nursing home, and eventually he died. He had
18 been suffering from severe sugar diabetes and other
19 chronic illnesses, and so he died that way.
20 He had been dead for a number of years, I think, when
21 you asked this question, and his -- I wasn't able to
22 recall him to mind at that time.
23 Q. Did you learn about before or
24 after August of '91?
25 A. The allegations that led to my removing him from
Page 76
1 his parish took place in the fall of '91.
2 Q. And you had heard no allegations about sexual
3 impropriety involving Father before fall of '91;
4 is that right?
5 A. There had been one general statement made by a
6 lady, and I had that investigated by a team, I guess I
7 would call it, or a committee of three of our priests.
8 They met with the family, and then they met with the
9 priest and confronted him. And the final result was that
10 there had been, I guess, indiscretions. He had acted
11 foolishly, but they did not feel that there was enough
12 evidence to say that any violation of the individual had
13 occurred. And so he was not removed from his pastorship
14 lacking that information.
15 Q. Were these findings of foolishness made before
16 August of '91?
17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I believe it was
18 indiscretion.
19 A. Oh, yes, those that occurred, like I said, in
20 19 -- in the mid '80s. I don't exactly recall.
21 Q. And who was the three-man team who investigated
22 these allegations?
23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you remember,
24 Archbishop.
25 A. You may have documents on that. I'm sure that
Page 77
1 it was probably in documents. I don't remember the team
2 right offhand.
3 Q. All right. Did you first learn of any
4 allegations of sexual impropriety by
5 before or after August of '91?
6 A. Before August of '91.
7 Q. ?
8 A. Not until -- in fact, the allegations came
9 against him after I had left in '93.
10 Q. Barney Bissonette?
11 A. No formal allegations had been brought to me
12 prior to that time.
13 Q. Any informal allegations?
14 A. Just general statements. He was no longer a
15 priest of the archidocese, had not been a priest of our
16 archidocese since 1983, and so I simply did not include
17 him in my own reflection either. He belonged to the
18 Diocese of Las Cruces.
19 Q. But had you been advised in any fashion prior to
20 August of '91 that he may have been a sex offender?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the
23 tape, Mr. Goffe?
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:45. This will be
25 the end of tape 1 in the deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
Page 78
1 [A recess was taken.]
2 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:50 PM. This is
3 the beginning of tape number 2 in the deposition of
4 Archbishop Sanchez. We are on the record.
5 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, did you learn
6 about allegations involving before August
7 of 1991?
8 A. Yes. It was public knowledge.
9 Q. Did you learn about Father and his
10 departure from the priesthood to marry prior to August of
11 1991?
12 A. Oh, yes. But I wouldn't include him in this
13 kind of a list, because it wasn't an allegation against
14 him.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. This was a decision a man made to change his
17 life, and so he left the priesthood and was no longer part
18 of the archidocese for that number of years. So I really
19 don't believe he belongs on that list.
20 Q. Now, he was raised with you in Socorro, wasn't
21 he?
22 A. Yes, he was. Just like you had your childhood
23 friends, he was one. He was ahead of me about three
24 years.
25 Q. Did you learn about before
Page 79
1 August of '91?
2 A. I believe so. I think it may be borderline, but
3 it may have come earlier than August. It may have been
4 right just before that time.
5 Q. Did you learn about the allegations involving
6 Father before August of '91?
7 A. I believe they came in before, but it wasn't
8 allegations to me. Like I said, this went to his
9 religious community to handle. So I did not consider that
10 as something that I was handling directly.
11 Q. Did you learn about the allegations of involving
12 Father prior to August of '91?
13 A. I just don't recall when that came in, to be
14 honest with you. It may very well have come before August
15 of '91. But I can't recall the year that it did come in.
16 Q. Did the allegations come in before his death?
17 A. Yes, it came in before his death. He died, I
18 guess it was last winter, winter of '92, yes.
19 Q. Do you recall the name of the complainant or the
20 circumstances of the complaint?
21 A. I don't recall the name at all. And I really --
22 I would be just conjecturing of what a complaint would be,
23 so it wouldn't be right to say it.
24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you'd like to refresh
25 his recollection in that regard, Mr. Pasternack, we'd be
Page 80
1 happy to preview some documents, if you're interested in
2 the thoroughness of this deposition.
3 Q. Did you learn about allegations against Father
4 Rutowski prior to August of '91?
5 A. Yes, I believe it had come in a few months
6 before that time.
7 Q. Did Father Ignacio Tafoya tell you that the
8 allegations against him had been before '91?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you have your conversation with Father
11 about his drink at the Ranch, or whatever gay bar it was,
12 before August of '91?
13 A. I don't believe so.
14 Q. Or Father ?
15 A. I don't believe so.
16 Q. All right. Archbishop, that's approximately 15
17 priests about whom you had heard allegations before August
18 of 1991. To put that into context, when you were
19 archbishop, was there a typical number of diocesan priests
20 serving in the Archidocese of Santa Fe at a given time?
21 A. A typical number?
22 Q. Well, for example, were there usually 100 to
23 150, 90 to 100, something like that?
24 MS. KENNEDY: Before you answer,
25 Archbishop, I have an objection to your last question, Mr.
Page 81
1 Pasternack. The list that you have given us has been
2 under the aegis of it differing from deposition testimony.
3 The question in the deposition testimony was, "Archbishop,
4 on how many different occasions have you received reports
5 or complaints of sexual abuse by a diocesan priest of this
6 archidocese since you've been archbishop?"
7 Now, the archbishop has demonstrated in his last
8 answer that at least one of the people on this list was
9 not a diocesan priest. Also, you have included in this
10 list individuals who have fathered children, and there has
11 been no indication, at least in the record to date, that
12 those were occasions of how the term "sexual abuse" is
13 normally used.
14 So I object to your question as it
15 mischaracterizing a similarity between your list and the
16 question you asked in the deposition previously taken in
17 another matter.
18 Q. Yes, Archbishop, the question was about how many
19 priests of the archidocese, as opposed to priests who were
20 members of the religious orders, would serve here at any
21 given time during your tenure as archbishop.
22 A. We would have approximately, oh, 100 and, I'd
23 say around 105 five, 110 active and then those who were
24 retired, and I include them because they also help out,
25 even though they are in a retired status. Probably an
Page 82
1 additional 20. So maybe we had about 130 diocesan
2 priests, yes. And that's been pretty constant, I would
3 say, in my years.
4 Q. Did the fact that anywhere between maybe eight
5 and 12 percent of the active priests had at one time or
6 another been presented to you as being sexually active in
7 one way or another cause you any concern?
8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That percentage,
9 mischaracterizes the evidence, Mr. Pasternack. These
10 priests, there are 105 active at any time, 105 to 110
11 active at any time. You have over the course of perhaps
12 the 19-year tenure of the archbishop selected maybe 10 to
13 15 priests. Over the 19-year tenure of the archbishop,
14 more than 105 to 110 priests passed through the
15 archidocese.
16 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: So that percentage would
18 be much lower.
19 A. Yes. Over a period of those years in which I
20 served, by '91, was 17 years that I had served as the
21 archbishop, many priests had retired and were no longer
22 active. Others had died obviously. Some had left this
23 areA. Religious communities had come and gone. The total
24 number of priests serving here would rise and fall with
25 any given year. I don't know what the total number would
Page 83
1 be if we added up all of those who had either died or
2 retired in those 17 years.
3 But what -- I think the point that you're making is
4 well taken, that it was even one priest who is breaking
5 his promise of living out a chaste life, that would be one
6 too many. Having 12 would be significant. But they all
7 did not happen at one time either. I think that a person
8 tries to deal with the illness of an individual as it
9 surfaces, and we try to deal with any allegation or
10 illness, if you want to call it, of the priest, his
11 spiritual illness, as it surfaced over those 17 years.
12 It wasn't like a plague had suddenly descended upon
13 the Archidocese of Santa Fe at one time. It was people at
14 differing times being alleged to have broken their promise
15 of celibacy or the promise of chastity.
16 Q. And forgive me again, but there would be one
17 more that we really should add to that list that you knew
18 of before August of '91?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Namely yourself?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you did receive these allegations at --
23 well, let me ask you this first. I apologize. Would we
24 be able to find out through any archdiocesan records how
25 many priests had, in fact, died or retired during that
Page 84
1 17-year period, so we can actually ascribe a percentage to
2 the number of sexually active priests known by you to be
3 sexually active as a percentage of the overall number
4 serving during that era?
5 A. I am sure that that information could be
6 obtained. It would require finding the books that would
7 have a list of those priests going back. It may not be
8 real easy to do, but perhaps some research could come up
9 with something of that nature for you.
10 Q. What type of documents would we need to look at
11 in order to make that calculation?
12 A. I suppose a listing of priests for a given year
13 and those who had died, a list of those who had died.
14 Q. In effect, that would be in the directory that's
15 put out every year?
16 A. The national directory should have -- it should
17 have all of the deceased, and it should have all of the
18 active ones. I don't know if it has any listings for
19 those who may have left. That would have to be looked at
20 closely.
21 Q. As these events were unfolding from 1974 to
22 1991, and you were learning that there were allegations
23 against Fhis father or that Father, did you ever have
24 occasion to call any bishops or archbishops around the
25 country and ask them, you know, "Is this happening to you
Page 85
1 guys? And what do you do when you find out about this?"
2 A. I didn't call anyone directly regarding that
3 specific concern. I had occasion to speak with bishops,
4 as you might well imagine, at different meetings and
5 gatherings. But it wasn't that sexual activity among the
6 clergy was a principal focus of any discussion. I believe
7 that that focus did not really come around until probably
8 the late '80s, when pedophile cases began to surface in
9 the country, and then I think that the focus began to be
10 on that.
11 Q. What was the nature of your discussions with
12 bishops and archbishops? Was it an acknowledgement that,
13 "Yes, priests do tend to yield to the temptations of the
14 flesh, and there's nothing we can do about it," or was
15 their direction to be more punitive? Can you characterize
16 any of those conversations?
17 A. Like I just said, we didn't really discuss those
18 issues. That was not an object of discussion among the
19 bishops. When the issue surfaced in the late '80s, it was
20 strictly on pedophilia, not on simple, "How our priests
21 behaving? What's happening among priests today?"
22 There had been concern among the clergy and among the
23 Church in the 1960s and early 1970s when a large number of
24 the clergy were leaving the active ministry. And at that
25 time, the focus was on what is happening, why are so many
Page 86
1 leaving to -- opting to get married and leaving their
2 priesthood. That became a major concern. But I don't
3 recall it surfacing as a concern in our discussions after
4 that time.
5 Q. Then let me ask what you knew. Before you
6 became archbishop and after you became archbishop, did you
7 have an opinion about whether, in fact, priests all over
8 the country were failing at one time or another in
9 honoring their promise of chastity?
10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's a compound
11 question, Mr. Pasternack. It's before or after he became
12 archbishop that you're asking for his opinion?
13 MR. PASTERNACK: I'll ask before and after.
14 If it's different, he can say.
15 A. I was of the opinion, as a priest in the 1960s,
16 that there were many priests who were not honoring their
17 promise of celibacy or chastity, due to the fact that many
18 were leaving the priesthood. Some articles were surfacing
19 that it was all right to date provided it was just a date.
20 And there was a lot of discussion in that area principally
21 in articles that would surface, and I have to say that
22 that disturbed me. It disturbed me, because I hated to
23 see priest friends of myself leave the priesthood. I had
24 classmates who were ordained with me who had left the
25 priesthood and that concerned me. I always felt it a very
Page 87
1 sad moment when I would receive a letter or phone call
2 from a classmate indicating that he had decided to leave
3 the priesthood so that he might marry. I would wish him
4 well and hope he would be happy, but it always hurt.
5 So I knew that some activity was going on among the
6 priests prior to my being named as an archbishop.
7 Q. And how about after?
8 A. After I was named as an archbishop, since it was
9 in nearly the mid '70s, there seemed to have been a halt
10 on the -- I'd call the exodus of priests leaving the
11 priesthood, and it seemed to have entered into some type
12 of a -- things seemed to settle for a while, although
13 there was a period when several priests left, and we did
14 have a number of priests from our own archidocese who
15 asked -- who informed me, they didn't ask, but simply
16 informed me that they were choosing to leave the
17 priesthood, and they left. It hurt me personally because
18 two of them I had ordained as priests. And it just hurt
19 me to see them leave as young priests this way.
20 But I felt that there was less of a concern about
21 marriage as a possibility in their life as it had been in
22 the '60s and earlier '70s.
23 Q. Did you know before you became archbishop
24 whether there was an issue of concern, at least in your
25 mind, about priests around the country allegedly having
Page 88
1 sex with children?
2 A. No, I wasn't aware of that issue, priests having
3 sex with children. That wasn't really discussed. It
4 wasn't a common issue. The big issue was priests leaving
5 the priesthood for marriage.
6 Q. How about after you became archbishop; did it
7 become an issue? Did you begin to realize that there were
8 allegations of priests having sex with children?
9 A. Not as a major issue, not until really the late
10 '80s. That is when it began to sort of mushroom as an
11 issue and a concern. But prior to that time, very little
12 was said of that issue, either in priest publications,
13 Catholic newspapers or the secular newspaper. It simply
14 wasn't a topic of major concern.
15 Q. In the media -- I want to make sure we
16 understand each other. I'm asking about what you knew
17 apart from what you saw in the papers --
18 A. Yes, right.
19 Q. -- whether you knew back to 1974 and thereafter,
20 that priests of the Santa Fe Archidocese were, in fact,
21 having sex with children?
22 A. No. Any type of allegation had been so rare
23 that it was not a major concern in my mind. I did not see
24 it as something major. I didn't know much about it. And
25 so I simply would not have been concerned. That was not a
Page 89
1 major concern.
2 I think that when the issue regarding Jason Sigler
3 was brought to my attention, it was shocking to me. And
4 our action against the man had to be taken, but I don't
5 recall it as being a major concern in the 1970s, no.
6 Q. When you appointed the investigation committee,
7 like the one that looked into the initial allegations in
8 the '80s against Father , I'm wondering if
9 it didn't contain the same type of membership we saw in
10 the investigation committee about Bob Kirsch in 1989. In
11 other words, that one of the investigators would have been
12 the , namely ?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Do you believe that was one of
15 the investigators on the situation?
16 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to instruct the
17 witness not to speculate. Archbishop, if you know who it
18 was, fine. But the Court and the lawyers and all the
19 parties involved do not want you to have to guess or
20 speculate.
21 MR. PASTERNACK: Mr. Winterbottom, do you
22 represent the archbishop?
23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I do, and I join in
24 that, that the archbishop shouldn't speculate. And if you
25 have some documents to help him refresh his recollection
Page 90
1 in terms of who was on the committee, we've made a
2 standing offer for you to share those with the archbishop.
3 MR. PASTERNACK: The reason that I ask is
4 that Ms. Kennedy is giving him instructions. Do you
5 represent him, or does she represent him?
6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I represent the
7 archbishop. Ms. Kennedy is free to represent the
8 archidocese and make the same objections to your questions
9 if they call for speculation.
10 Her interest, as I understand it, is a thorough
11 and accurate recitation of the facts, as is mine.
12 MR. PASTERNACK: Are you allowing her to
13 instruct your client?
14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If I disagree with her
15 instructions, I will inform my client.
16 MR. PASTERNACK: But I want to make that
17 clear, you are allowing her to instruct your client?
18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm allowing her to make
19 her objections on the record.
20 MR. PASTERNACK: My question is, are you
21 allowing her to instruct your client?
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If I join them, he is so
23 instructed. If I do not join them, he is not so
24 instructed. In this case I join her.
25 MS. KENNEDY: In case you are confused at
Page 91
1 all, Mr. Pasternack, it's my understanding that this
2 deposition is being taken in all of the pending cases that
3 either you or Mr. Bennett and Mr. Tinkler have filed. As
4 you are aware, I am counsel of record in any number of
5 those cases; and as counsel of record for the Archidocese
6 of Santa Fe, it is my understanding I would have full
7 opportunity to make whatever objections I would deem
8 appropriate in that role.
9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In many of those cases,
10 Mr. Pasternack, the archbishop is here merely as a
11 deponent and not a party.
12 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, the question
13 was, do you recall whether was on the
14 investigating committee involving Father ?
15 A. I do not recall whether he was on that
16 committee.
17 I would like to clarify something, for the sake of
18 the question. Whenever I would establish a committee to
19 do an investigation, it is normally required or at least
20 recommended by the Church that you assign to that
21 committee someone who is familiar with the law of the
22 Church, the canon law of the Church. So they would ask us
23 to have a canonist on that type of investigation, because
24 the priest has certain canonical rights, also, that have
25 to be respected, and so the steps taken in any
Page 92
1 investigative commission should be guided by a canonist.
2 Since Father is a canonist and was a canonist at
3 that time, I had assigned him certainly to one committee,
4 as you've mentioned, possibly to the second committee. I
5 don't recall. But it would have been under the auspices
6 as a canonist for the archidocese that he would have been
7 placed on that commission. And I knew nothing at that
8 time of what you have alleged about his own personal life.
9 Q. At the time that the committee was formed with
10 regard to Father , did the archidocese and the
11 chancery have any other canonists who would have been
12 available to serve, if you recall?
13 A. I don't recall the year that that occurred.
14 There were, on one occasion, two canonists; and then
15 shortly after that period, the second one was assigned to
16 a parish in Santa Fe. And Father Viera did serve as the
17 only canonist for a number of months, I don't recall,
18 perhaps six or eight months, before another priest
19 finished his schooling and was able then to come and join
20 in the archidocese.
21 Q. And who was that?
22 A. Father Wolf is one that when he completed his
23 studies in Catholic University he was able to come to the
24 archidocese. Prior to him, Father Steve Rosary completed
25 his studies and came to the archidocese. And then there
Page 93
1 was Father Viera, completed his studies. Prior to Father
2 Viera, there was Father Jerome Martinez. And those are
3 the four that had served at differing times in that
4 position. In that position. They then surfaced the name
Page 94
11 Q. Did Father ever tell you that he was
12 sexually active and intended to remain so?
13 A. Never.
14 Q. While you were archbishop in an active sense,
15 sir, can you categorize how you viewed your responsibility
16 to the Catholic faithful of your archidocese?
17 A. When I was named the Archbishop of Santa Fe, I
18 was coming out of an experience of pastoral ministry
19 myself. I had been pastor for several years. So I was
20 familiar with what we call the pastoral ministry, dealing
21 with our laiety, with their organizations, the involvement
22 of the laiety and the ministry of the Church, and I felt
23 that my greatest contribution would be dealing with the
24 organization of lay groups, getting them involved in their
25 parishes, being very sensitive to the different cultural
Page 95
1 groups that were present in the archidocese. I made a
2 specific effort to involve the Native American and get
3 their leadership trained for those purposes, as well as
4 with the Hispanic American.
5 I also felt that my own talent and interest was in
6 reference to social needs within the state of New Mexico
7 and how the Church might contribute to the welfare of the
8 common good. And so it was in that pastoral concept that
9 I saw my greatest talents. I did not necessarily see
10 myself as a hot-shot administrator, because I had not had
11 that type of experience. But I was a very experienced in
12 pastoral needs, and I felt that's where I could give my
13 greatest contribution.
14 Q. In terms of your obligations to the Catholic
15 faithful of the Archidocese of Santa Fe, did you have a
16 concern for protecting them from harm?
17 A. Yes. I think that in service to people, you
18 want to be of service in every way possible. My primary
19 responsibility is the preservation of their faith so that
20 they have the foundation of faith within their lives,
21 personally, as well as within families and communities; to
22 strengthen that faith with their interaction with one
23 another and concern and care for one another.
24 I did not necessarily see myself as a personal
25 guardian for everyone. That's an impossibility. But I
Page 96
1 would be there to help counsel or offer support when
2 people needed this. For this very reason, we established
3 such centers as our Catholic Social Services and expanded
4 it. Even this very center here, which deals with children
5 who have been severely retarded either from birth or from
6 some accident in their life -- you may not be aware, but
7 we're close to a beautiful ministry right here that has
8 been operated by our Sisters.
9 This is the type of concern and care that always
10 motivated me to reach out to people. I think that
11 Governor King recognized that when the riot, that terrible
12 riot occurred in Santa Fe. It was myself that he called
13 to come in on that Sunday to go into the prison to meet
14 with the inmates, because they feared that they would have
15 to have a major entrance with weapons, and there would be
16 many, many deaths, and he asked if I would be willing to
17 try to negotiate and get the prisoners to cooperate for a
18 peaceful settlement, and I did that, and we were able to
19 enter then without any further taking of life.
20 So I think that the view that I had of myself was the
21 concern of people as far as I could do it and to the best
22 of my ability. I was not perfect, but I tried.
23 Q. On the occasions when allegations were brought
24 to your attention of priests having sex with parishioners
25 or with children, did you feel that you had an obligation
Page 97
1 to help those parishioners or children?
2 A. Yes. I certainly felt within my own heart a
3 concern for them. I wasn't aware totally of what damage
4 could be suffered from a person who has been abused. I
5 wasn't aware of that in the '70s. I'm only becoming more
6 and more aware of it today as all our sciences increase.
7 But our concern was there for the people to see that
8 whatever need that they may have expressed would be met.
9 The first thing, of course, was to remove the priest
10 who would have been alleged to have done something wrong,
11 to remove him from the situation so that there would not
12 be that fear any longer.
13 Q. I realize that you do not have children, and I
14 accept that proposition. But you do have, I know, many
15 nieces and nephews.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I'm sure that you were present at their
18 various stages of growth and that you loved them as any
19 uncle loves nieces and nephews.
20 A. Very much.
21 Q. In view of that experience, are you saying that
22 it comes as a surprise to you that children who are
23 sexually molested by adults are damaged?
24 A. The extent of the damage, Mr. Pasternack, is
25 known to very few people. It's more known today than was
Page 98
1 known in the '70s. I believe anyone present here today
2 would be able to give testimony to that same fact. School
3 teachers may be instructed, and there, very little
4 perhaps. But I think the common person, the ordinary
5 person, would not be aware of the severe damage or lasting
6 damage that could occur depending on what transpired with
7 the child.
8 Q. Are you saying then, sir, that in the 1970s, you
9 didn't have an intuitive knowledge that for a child to be
10 sexually molested by an adult was a terribly damaging
11 event?
12 A. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is
13 that I was unaware of any lasting type of damage that a
14 child might suffer, how long that might be with them. I
15 believe that any child who had been offended was severely
16 offended, and that child needed to be cared for; and the
17 best care that was necessary, especially as expressed by
18 the parents, should be provided for.
19 Q. Let me ask ask it a different way. Did you
20 then, in fact, know even in the '70s that a child who was
21 sexually molested by an adult would likely be severely
22 emotionally injured by that event?
23 A. The word "severely" is a relative term, and I
24 could not accept that word. I was aware that they were
25 hurt, but how severe that would be was not known to me.
Page 99
1 Q. Are you able to put yourself in this situation:
2 Hypothetically, if some grown man had sexually molested
3 one of your nieces when they were 10 years old, what would
4 your reaction to that have been? Are you able to form an
5 opinion about that?
6 A. I would have been very angry, very upset,
7 concerned for her, and making certain that she would be
8 able to adjust after the event had occurred, that she
9 could recapture her -- the natural life that she had been
10 living prior to the event that we're referring to.
11 Q. Even as a Godly man and a Holy man, which we all
12 know you are, wouldn't you have just wanted to kill the
13 guy?
14 A. I don't know. I would have been very angry. I
15 cannot say that I would want to kill that person. That's
16 a very severe feeling that a person has inside themselves.
17 That would include hate, and I've always tried to avoid
18 hate of any kind. I would have been very angry, very
19 upset. I don't think I would have taken it to that point.
20 Q. And would it be accurate to say that your degree
21 of anger and upsetness would be a manifestation of your
22 intuitive knowledge that for an adult to forcibly have sex
23 with a child would cause injury to that child?
24 A. You lost me a little bit. If you could repeat
25 that.
Page 100
1 Q. Doesn't your intuition tell that you if an adult
2 authority figure forces himself sexually on a child,
3 that's going to injure the child?
4 A. I think if any child is injured by anyone, it's
5 going to be -- the child is injured and could very well be
6 severely injured.
7 Q. The question was, doesn't your in tuition tell
8 you -- and didn't it always tell you -- that for an adult
9 to force themselves sexually on a child is going to injure
10 that child?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you feel, as archbishop, any particular and
13 distinct obligation to the Catholic children of New
14 Mexico?
15 A. I felt an obligation to everyone, Mr.
16 Pasternack. Children are a very essential part of our
17 community, and I've always reached out to children, have
18 been concerned about children. But I don't think my
19 concern was limited only to Catholic children in New
20 Mexico. I think it was to all children and to all people.
21 I wouldn't limit it to that one category.
22 Q. I suspect you are one of our leading experts on
23 the way in which the Hispanic community feels toward their
24 church in New Mexico. And it has been my thesis -- and I
25 want you to correct me if I'm wrong -- that there is a
Page 101
1 level of devotion that the Hispanic people in New Mexico
2 bring to their Catholic faith that is almost unsurpassed
3 anywhere. Would you agree or disagree with that?
4 A. It's a very deep faith. It's a faith that is
5 rooted in their own family traditions that -- and it's
6 part of the culture that they live daily. And so that's
7 why it does have very deep roots, yes. It's a strong
8 faith.
9 Q. My suspicion is that there are many people
10 living in New Mexico who can trace their lineage back to
11 the Conquistadors.
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. And that, therefore, they believe in Catholicism
14 to the point of believing in proselytizing Catholicism,
15 because their very tradition is founded on bringing the
16 word of God, as the Catholic Church knows it, to the
17 people of this part of the world?
18 A. Today, most of our Catholic people in our
19 Hispanic families are not really people who try to bring
20 that faith to others. They share it by example, by how
21 they live their lives, and I think they live their lives
22 very beautifully and in a very humble way, especially in
23 our northern villages, which we've all had the joy of
24 visiting and sharing with the people. And there's
25 something mystical about their own faith and about the way
Page 102
1 they live. It's not something that they're trying to
2 impose or make it, you know, a distinct effort to share
3 that way, except through their own example, the way they
4 live.
5 Q. But my thesis -- and you correct me if I'm
6 wrong, because I yield to you as the expert -- is because
7 these people can trace their lineage to the Conquistadors,
8 who are more proselytizing type of folks, that the
9 Catholic Church is a very strong foundational, fundamental
10 part of their lives that they believe in with all their
11 hearts.
12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, is the
13 question that the Hispanic people in New Mexico believe in
14 the Catholic faith with all their hearts, or is that it
15 they believe in the Catholic faith with all their hearts
16 because they trace their lineage to the Conquistadors?
17 Q. Are you able to respond to the question?
18 A. I would say this in response to the question --
19 and I'm not an expert, because you're making a
20 generalization perhaps unaware that the majority of people
21 in New Mexico are not of direct Hispanic lineage. They
22 are more of Mexican lineage than they are Hispanic
23 lineage. We have many families here who can direct their
24 lineage back to the early Spanish colonial times. But we
25 cannot really throw into that category the rest of the
Page 103
1 Hispanic family in New Mexico, because the majority would
2 not belong to that. It's a smaller number.
3 But I would say this: That the faith of people is
4 not always dependent upon their lineage and who they have
5 descended from. Their faith is dependent upon their
6 immediate ancestor, their parents, their grandparents, the
7 extended family, uncles and aunts, how they live out that
8 faith together, how they celebrate those important moments
9 in their life, moments of baptism or weddings, even
10 celebration of death, because death is an important moment
11 in their lives of their families, and it's a beautiful
12 thing to see celebrated with hope in their heart, with a
13 great devotion and love for God in their heart. It's a
14 not a hopeless event. It's filled with hope.
15 So I would say that it's really more dependent upon
16 their immediate ancestors, their parents and grandparents,
17 than upon those that went too far back. There's a pride
18 there, but it's not really faith.
19 Q. In any event, New Mexico, for example -- and for
20 reasons that I don't know, but maybe you do -- has spawned
21 such groups as the Penitentes who are so devout, is my
22 understanding, in their belief that God suffered for their
23 sins that they actually flagellate themselves to try to
24 emulate that suffering?
25 A. The Penitentes are people of great faith and of
Page 104
1 great devotion. Their origin really is in relationship to
2 the Franciscan community. They were originally a lay
3 group of Franciscans, not an ordained group but lay group,
4 and they became important to the Catholic Church in New
5 Mexico at a time when there were no priests, or very few
6 priests in the state. And they became the spiritual
7 leaders of their little villages. They became the prayer
8 leaders. They would baptize the children. They would
9 bury those who needed to be buried. They would even
10 witness marriages, because no one else was there to be
11 witnessed, and they kept the faith alive. And even to
12 today, the men who belonged to this are wonderful men,
13 very humble men, who believe that their faith is one of
14 tradition and of penance. They see and recognize the need
15 for penance in their life, not necessarily
16 self-flagellation, but self-denial, something that our
17 general American society doesn't know too much about,
18 because we like instant satisfaction and instant
19 gratification. But they believe in self-denial.
20 Q. My understanding of the process of becoming a
21 priest is that there is a process whereby the priest's
22 hands are blessed and through that blessing those hands
23 actually transform, then, the communion into the body and
24 the blood of Christ; is that an accurate understanding?
25 A. The hands are not really the instrument of
Page 105
1 transformation of the host and the wine at the Mass. It
2 is the intention and the spoken word of the priest calling
3 upon the power of God to transform the bread and the wine
4 into the body and blood of Christ.
5 The hands are consecrated inasmuch as the hands are
6 going to be used throughout the life of the priest for
7 blessings, for annointings, for baptisms, for impositions
8 of hands for blessings. They're used continually for
9 administration of the Holy Eucharist at Mass, absolution
10 and confession. So they become a very living symbol of
11 the power of the Lord God in that ordained person.
12 Q. Some of the people that we represent,
13 particularly those from northern New Mexico, have referred
14 to the priest in the tradition of their family as being an
15 angel of God. Have you heard that?
16 A. No, not as an angel of God. As a certainly a
17 representative of the Lord. An instrument of the Lord,
18 they use that word a lot, that expression.
19 I think when they recognize an individual who is
20 outstanding in his life, his holiness and his self-denial,
21 they may call him "un angelito," a little angel of God, or
22 even better than that, "un santo," a saint of God, because
23 he reflects that in his life, his holiness of living, but
24 it's not an expression that is given to every priest.
25 They're pretty discerning. They have respect, but they
Page 106
1 would withhold that for those very special individuals.
2 Q. Are you able to say whether or not in general
3 the priest is a very respected person in his community?
4 A. I would say yes. The priests like, I would say,
5 most ministers in our country, hold a place of respect in
6 the communities. Especially in the small community, they
7 would have that respect.
8 Q. Is the relationship between priest and penitent,
9 as you viewed it when you were an active priest and then
10 an archbishop, one of trust?
11 A. You used the word "penitent," and that has a
12 very.
13 Q. Excuse me, parishioner.
14 A. Parishioner, all right. That's more general.
15 Yes, the relationship between what I would call an active
16 parishioner, one who is actively attending Church and
17 close to their Church and their faith, they would have a
18 place of trust in the priest. He is their leader.
19 Q. And did you, as archbishop, or does the Church,
20 as a larger entity, encourage parishioners to have that
21 level of trust and respect for the priest?
22 A. We encourage them to work together with their
23 priest, not to idolize them, but to cooperate with him in
24 the leadership position. Many parishes -- most of our
25 parishes today have parish councils, and they are in a
Page 107
1 sense the representatives of the parish community who work
2 together with the priest for the various pastoral needs in
3 their community. So they represent -- and the people are
4 happy to have their parish representatives on those
5 councils to work together with the priest. Cooperation is
6 something I've always encouraged between priest and his
7 people.
8 Q. In the event of a disagreement between the
9 parish counsel and the priest, who wins?
10 A. Well, depends on what kind of disagreement. In
11 some instances, the parish council actually has to agree,
12 or no action can be taken. In other instances, they are
13 advisory in nature rather than -- they don't have the
14 authority to legislate.
15 Q. Would it be correct to conclude that the
16 difference between those two is one of ministerial versus
17 the liturgy? The parish council might have to agree on
18 whether we buy a new roof, but they're not going to have
19 to agree on how we say the Mass?
20 A. You're a good liturgist, Mr. Pasternack.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Right. No, the priest is the official person
23 designated by the bishop to represent him to the parish.
24 He is the one who has been trained and ordained for things
25 sacred; therefore, the liturgy is really in his hands.
Page 108
1 However, in order to make the liturgy relevant to the
2 people, he would normally involve the people in planning
3 the liturgical celebrations so that the choir groups that
4 are singing would have music that would be in keeping with
5 the theme of that particular celebration. Ushers and
6 others who are necessary for the celebration are properly
7 trained, also.
8 Q. I don't know if you can describe this or if I'm
9 even asking the question too naively. So forgive me. But
10 in the way that the Catholic parishioners of New Mexico
11 view the road from here to God, is the priest a necessary
12 intermediary in the relationship with God?
13 A. Not essential, no. The people offer their
14 prayer directly to the Lord. The priest becomes an
15 instrument for the administration of the sacraments, and
16 the sacraments become channels of God's grace for people,
17 but not the only channels, as are their own prayer, the
18 reading of the sacred scriptures, their own good works to
19 one another are all certainly channels, because there are
20 many areas where a priest is not present for the people.
21 But the priest becomes certainly a very important part of
22 the official Church in rendering the celebration of the
23 sacraments for the people.
24 Q. Then other than situations like Eucharistic
25 ministers who are specially appointed for that purpose,
Page 109
1 would it be correct to say that the Holy Sacraments of the
2 Church -- marriage, baptism, confession, communion -- that
3 these are things which the priest serves as the channel to
4 God for?
5 A. Yes. He is the instrument of the Lord in the
6 celebration of the sacrament to unite this person in the
7 sacrament of marriage with their Lord, in the sacrament of
8 baptism with their Lord, whatever that sacrament may be.
9 Q. It's been described to me certainly by some
10 people in northern New Mexico, and I'd like you to tell me
11 if this is your observation or off base, but it's been
12 described to me that these communities view the community
13 at one level, the priest at another level, and God at the
14 ultimate level. Is that not right, or is that essentially
15 the way you have understood it, as well?
16 A. I don't know if they would think of it in terms
17 of levels. It's possible. Some individuals may very well
18 say that, "Our Father must be" -- "Our priest must be
19 closer to God, because he has the power to celebrate the
20 Mass daily and to administer the sacraments."
21 But I think especially in northern New Mexico, you
22 have to prove yourself to the people before they give you
23 that real total trust and love. People of southern New
24 Mexico, a little more lenient to offer trust, but the
25 north, they're more demanding.
Page 110
1 Q. And in that process of giving the host and
2 adminstering communion, it's my understanding that there's
3 something called transubstantiation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that is actually the process whereby the
6 host becomes the body of Christ?
7 A. Yes, you are right.
8 Q. And the wine becomes of blood of Christ?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And without the priest's intersession, that
11 transubstantiation does not occur; isn't that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. It would seem, then, that the priest almost has
14 mystical powers to transform the inanimate into the
15 animate?
16 A. He has the power, we believe, as Roman
17 Catholics, a power given to us by Christ, designated at
18 the Last Supper and which is transferred in the sacrament
19 of ordination, exactly.
20 Q. At some point in the trials in these cases,
21 we're going to be talking about issues like confession,
22 forgiveness, redemption. Could you explain, based on your
23 extensive background both as priest and archbishop, what
24 those things mean within the Catholic Church?
25 A. Confession, forgiveness and redemption.
Page 111
1 Confession is a sacrament of the Church. It's one of our
2 seven sacraments. It's also known today as a sacrament of
3 reconciliation whereby one who recognizes his sin wants to
4 be reconciled both with his God, whom he believes he has
5 offended because he's broken God's law, as well as being
6 reconciled with the body, the rest of the Church, against
7 whom he feels he's also offended because he has failed in
8 God's commandment.
9 This sacrament is normally done privately, so that
10 the person may freely confess his sin. The priest listens
11 to that person's confession. If the person is sincere and
12 will make an effort to try to live an upright life in the
13 future, then the priest asks him to perform a penance,
14 normally a simple penance of prayer, as a symbol or a sign
15 of that desire to live in God's grace. And then the
16 priest invokes God's forgiveness upon him and offers the
17 at the same time the forgiveness of the Church so that
18 reconciliation occurs. And the person feels that that
19 guilt that they have carried into the confessional has, in
20 fact, been lifted, has been forgiven by God, and they can
21 go forth and sin no more, as the Lord would say to them.
22 Q. Would it be accurate to say, then, that the
23 priest actually is the conduit through which God extends
24 his forgiveness to the people?
25 A. Yes. The sacrament of confession, the
Page 112
1 absolution itself, through confession, is dependent upon
2 the priest's forgiveness, but it's not the only way that
3 forgiveness can be received. The Church also teaches that
4 another way of forgiveness of sins is that the penitent
5 themselves make a perfect act of love of God, an act of
6 forgiveness, not having an opportunity to make their
7 confession to a priest, because priests are not always
8 available, and that perfect act of love does, in fact,
9 reconcile them once again to their God. So it depends
10 upon the internal sincerity and motivation of the
11 penitent.
12 Q. Could you give me an example of a perfect act of
13 forgiveness? What does that mean?
14 A. A perfect act of love is if a person simply says
15 to his God, in his own words, that he recognizes his own
16 sin, his failures as a Christian trying to live out God's
17 law, and he is sincerely sorry for having failed as a
18 Christian, and he asks the Lord's forgiveness for his sin.
19 He promises to live a good life. He certainly has no
20 intention of falling back into sin, and he will try to
21 avoid any occasions that might lead to it, and he asks
22 God's forgiveness. And he shows this love of God inasmuch
23 as he then becomes more of a God-fearing person in his
24 presence at Church, in his participation in whatever form
25 of prayer or in his own prayer life at home.
Page 113
1 Q. Why would anybody go to confession if you can
2 take care of this in your living room?
3 A. Because in confession, you hear the words that
4 you are absolved. In your living room, you don't hear the
5 words. You have to have a deep faith. People like to
6 hear the words. And I think that it's very important that
7 people -- it's not only important for them to hear the
8 words, but it's important for them to make that admission
9 of guilt to another person. There's something therapeutic
10 about it. When you admit your own guilt to another
11 person, that is a step forward in healing for yourself,
12 and I believe that that has always been an essential
13 component of the Church's absolution.
14 There has been allowed in the Church what we know as
15 general absolution, where the priest can invoke God's
16 forgiveness upon a large group at one time, rather than an
17 individual. But that would be allowed only under certain
18 circumstances, such as emergencies, in wartime. They're
19 expecting to be in battle momentarily. I'm sure it
20 happened in the Gulf War recently, where the priest would
21 gather the troops together for an absolution.
22 Q. Would it be correct to conclude that priests
23 themselves also go to confession on occasion?
24 A. Priests themselves are encouraged to go to
25 confession regularly for the grace of the sacrament,
Page 114
1 because we believe that God's grace does strengthen you,
2 and also, as a part of your spiritual structure, to keep
3 yourself close to the Lord. It serves as a
4 self-examination on a regular basis.
5 Q. And I'm not asking about any particular priest
6 or confessional situation, but would it be the norm that
7 when a priest goes to confession, one of the motivations
8 for so doing would be to confess that priests own sins?
9 A. When the priest goes to confession, yes, he's
10 confessing his own sin, or if he feels he's not guilty of
11 any serious sin, it becomes a confession in which he asks
12 forgiveness for any past sins that he has forgiven so that
13 he might gain the grace of the sacrament. In other words,
14 it becomes what we call a confession of devotion.
15 Q. When a priest generally goes to confession
16 speaking to the confessor of a specific sin, does it also
17 work the same way, that the confessor will pronounce an
18 act of penance, the priest will do it and then be absolved
19 of the sin?
20 A. The confession is held the same way for a priest
21 as for any lay person. It's a marvelous sacrament, one
22 that has brought a great, tremendous healing and peace to
23 many, many people. I just can't tell you how that
24 beautiful sacrament works for many people in their lives.
25 Many people who return to the sacrament after having been
Page 115
1 away from the sacrament of penance for, say, 20 or 30
2 years in their life, and they have felt a great urge to
3 return their life to God and to live righteously once
4 again, and they come, and they begin with that confession
5 before the priest and before God.
6 Q. Now, once the person or priest who has sinned
7 and confessed and receives the penance, once they perform
8 the penance, in the eyes of the Church are they now
9 absolved of the sin?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are there any sins for which absolution is not
12 available?
13 A. There are what they call reserved sins. One
14 reserved sin has been the sin of abortion, because it is
15 significantly a serious sin. However, because of the
16 prevalence of abortion in our society in America today,
17 priests in I would say probably every diocese of our
18 country have been granted that permission to absolve from
19 that sin, but they do it with counseling for the penitent.
20 Another grave reserved sin would be that of striking
21 the priest or attempting to kill or harm the man
22 physically. They would want to know what took place, so
23 that it doesn't just -- it's not just a confession, but
24 what has precipitated this.
25 Another reserved sin, very serious, would be if the
Page 116
1 priest breaks the sacrament of the seal of confession,
2 that he has made public somebody's confession. Then he is
3 not granted absolution from that action, if, in fact, that
4 had happened, until permission from the Holy Father is
5 granted. So that's considered very serious.
6 Q. If a priest has forced sex with a child, is that
7 a sin for which absolution is available?
8 A. That is a sin for which absolution is available
9 provided the priest is properly disposed and recognizes
10 his own sin.
11 Q. And who makes the determination as to whether
12 the priest is properly disposed and recognizes his own
13 sin?
14 A. It has to be the priest confessor, whoever he
15 has gone to confession with.
16 Q. Would it be correct to say, then, that striking
17 a priest or having an abortion are greater sins than for a
18 priest to have sex with a child?
19 A. It's not judging which one is greater, but a
20 potential harm that continues after that. Abortion is the
21 destruction -- we believe it's the destruction of a human
22 being, of an innocent human being who has no defense. And
23 that that act, unless properly counseled, can become
24 repetitive.
25 The sacrament of confession is a very sacred
Page 117
1 sacrament and demands absolute trust; and therefore,
2 anyone who violates the secrecy of that confession does
3 great harm to the sacrament itself, because it injures the
4 trust that people may have in the sacrament.
5 So these are actions that have been taken by the
6 Church in establishing the reserved sins for reasons that
7 have occurred over the years, perhaps for centuries, that
8 have lead to the determination of reserved sins.
9 It's not to -- it is not to judge one action as more
10 offensive or less offensive than another. All sin is
11 ugly. All sin is dirty.
12 Q. Forgive me, but let's talk about in your own
13 mind. Isn't it -- or is it a worse sin to have an
14 abortion than for a priest to put his penis into the mouth
15 of a child and hold that child and forcibly ejaculate into
16 the mouth of that child?
17 A. You've created an awful, awful scene. I would
18 say both sins are grievous sins, extremely offensive, both
19 to the human being and to God. One takes the life of a
20 child; the other takes the innocence of the child. Both
21 are offensive or an offending against the child.
22 Q. But the abortion, if I understand you correctly,
23 is less forgivable than the forcible rape?
24 A. It is forgivable. It was -- it's listed as a
25 reserved sin unless the bishop grants permission to his
Page 118
1 priest to grant absolution for the sin of abortion.
2 Q. Well, I'll just ask the final question this way:
3 Is it listed as a reserved sin for a priest to put his
4 penis into the mouth of a child and ejaculate?
5 A. No, it is not.
6 Q. No?
7 A. It is not.
8 Q. Do you have an opinion on whether it ought to
9 be?
10 A. I don't believe that any list is ever firm, and
11 I can't speculate what should or should not be. Sin
12 itself -- I think we have to come back to a realization
13 that sin is ugly, and it's destructive of people. And
14 there's been a loss of consciousness of sin in our modern
15 societies, all kinds of sin.
16 Q. Is masturbation a reserved sin?
17 A. No, it is not.
18 Q. Is the use of birth control a reserved sin?
19 A. No, it is not.
20 Q. Is redemption and absolution personal to the
21 individual? And by that, I mean between God and the
22 individual.
23 A. I think you may be thinking in terms of
24 salvation of the individual. Redemption is an act that we
25 believe was accomplished by our Lord Jesus through his own
Page 119
1 death on the cross in which he redeemed the human race
2 from slavery to sin and gave the human race an opportunity
3 to live apart from sin if they claimed the grace of God.
4 And so the act of redemption is something that the Lord
5 Jesus performs for us. It's not something that we perform
6 for ourselves. That is God's gift to us. We need to
7 claim it. We need to say yes, "I want God's grace of
8 redemption and forgiveness, and I want God's grace of
9 redemption for myself that I may be saved in my own life."
10 So it becomes an act of faith on the part of that
11 individual.
12 Q. If a person confesses and receives and performs
13 the penance, who is it who knows whether they've been
14 absolved, the confessor?
15 A. If the person confesses and --
16 Q. Receives their penance and performs it, who is
17 the person, then, who knows that they've been absolved of
18 sin? Just the confessor and the person confessing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And God?
21 A. And the Lord, yes, exactly.
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we take a
23 break, Mr. Pasternack. We've been at it three hours, now.
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:55. We will go
25 off the record.
Page 120
1 [A recess was taken.]
2 MR. GOFFE: The time is 4:16. We are back
3 on the record.
4 Q. Archbishop, when we broke, we were talking about
5 the -- you were talking about the reserved sins, which, if
6 I could summarize, seems to me to be the sins that are
7 less pardonable and require greater barriers to be
8 surmounted in order to be forgiven; is that a fair
9 summary?
10 A. Special permission. They have to be looked
11 into.
12 Q. And it seems that one of the most serious of the
13 reserved sins, because it's the one that only the Pope can
14 absolve one of, is revealing confidences that are
15 expressed in the confessional; is that fair?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But that, for example, that child sexual abuse
18 is not a reserved sin? Is that a fair summary?
19 A. It is not a reserved sin.
20 Q. Tell me, then, sir, if this scenario is one that
21 would be capable of happening with that analysis of the
22 beliefs of the Church: A priest forcibly rapes a child,
23 confesses that sin to another priest, who pronounces the
24 penance and grants absolution upon making a determination
25 that the perpetrator is truly repentant. The confessor,
Page 121
1 however, can't tell you, as archbishop, what he learned;
2 is that right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And if he does tell you, as archbiship, what he
5 learned about the priest, then he has committed a reserved
6 sin that only the Pope can forgive; is that right?
7 A. True. But that confessor can and perhaps should
8 mention to the penitent that he has done something that is
9 very serious, inquire if this has happened before and
10 advise him that since this has been a crime against a
11 child, that he see his bishop or an authority so that this
12 would move forward. And he can make it dependent that his
13 absolution will not be granted unless this take place.
14 And in fact, he could offer himself to accompany the man
15 to see his bishop.
16 Q. But you would not know about whether the
17 confessor conditioned the absolution on approaching the
18 bishop, because the confessor couldn't tell you unless the
19 guy did approach the bishop; is that right?
20 A. Anything that transpires within the confessional
21 has to be maintained that way.
22 Q. Therefore, whether or not the rape of a child by
23 a priest gets reported to you, as archbishop, could depend
24 upon the personal opinions of the confessor?
25 A. And in the same way whether or not a confession
Page 122
1 of a homicide would get reported depends upon that
2 confessor. But knowing our confessors, they would require
3 that person to make it known to authorities because, in
4 fact, a crime has been committed.
5 I think we've been so focused here on what I call the
6 spiritual relationship between a penitent and his God that
7 we have not talked about the civil consequences of an
8 action which should have civil consequences, and these
9 examples that we have used certainly do have civil
10 consequences; and therefore, action should be taken in
11 that direction, as well.
12 Q. Well, sir, how do you know that your confessors
13 here, while you were archbishop, conditioned absolution of
14 a priest who raped a child upon going to you?
15 A. I have no knowledge of that, and I have no
16 knowledge whether or not any priest has gone to
17 confession, for the first thing. I cannot force
18 confession on anyone, and I certainly cannot force
19 knowledge of a confession from a confessor. No, that is
20 up to the individual.
21 Q. All right. So whether or not the confessors in
22 the Santa Fe Archidocese actually did hear confessions
23 from priests who raped children and absolved those priests
24 is something that to this day you don't even know; isn't
25 that right?
Page 123
1 A. I would have no knowledge of that. That is the
2 spiritual reality, because we're dealing about a spiritual
3 reality between that person and his God. That doesn't
4 exclude the possibility that parents would make this known
5 to anyone else, or friends or whomever. But we're dealing
6 here with a spiritual reality in which the individual
7 apparently, as you have drawn the scenario, the individual
8 is seeking forgiveness from God, and we haven't dealt with
9 these other consequences.
10 Q. Let's talk about the other consequences. The
11 confessor would be violating the seal of the confessional
12 if the confessor called up the DA and said, "I've got a
13 priest over here who is raping kids"?
14 A. We have mentioned that, right, but the confessor
15 can also tell the individual that, "You have done
16 something of such a nature that is a crime. You have an
17 obligation to report this to a proper authority."
18 Q. He can. But did you ever direct your priests in
19 this archidocese at any point, "If you learn, if you
20 receive confession from a priest who has raped a child,
21 you are not to grant absolution unless that priest
22 presents himself to the DA"?
23 A. I did not grant -- I did not direct that to the
24 priests because I cannot direct that. A priest confessor
25 has to be his own judge within that tribunal. That's why
Page 124
1 it's called an internal forum. He has to be able to make
2 those judgments there.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. Awareness of what's taking place, that's another
5 thing. But I could not give that directive.
6 Q. So the confessor, absent the agreement of the
7 penitent, can't tell you that the penitent admitted raping
8 a child, can't tell the DA that the penitent admitted
9 raping a child, I presume can't even tell the parents of
10 the child that their child has been raped by the penitent;
11 is that true?
12 A. That's true.
13 Q. Are you comfortable with that as a structure of
14 the Church?
15 A. As we speak about a spiritual reality, I have to
16 be -- I have to accept that. That's a spiritual reality.
17 The sacrament of confession is not meant to be a place of
18 simple counseling where an individual would come to share
19 their concern about an event that's happened. If they
20 come to confession, it is presumed that they are coming
21 because of remorse within their conscience and their
22 desire, then, to make themselves right with God. And that
23 remorse should be of such a degree that they would want to
24 make things right, also, with the community, with those
25 civil obligations.
Page 125
1 Q. Are you, sir, aware of one case where a priest
2 who raped a child ever presented himself to you as a
3 condition of obtaining absolution?
4 A. First of all, I cannot respond regarding
5 absolution, because that is something I hold high. I
6 cannot recall anything of this nature.
7 Q. Just to make sure the question is clear, do you
8 recall any situation where the confessor -- where you
9 learned that the confessor said to the priest who had
10 raped a child, "I will not extend absolution to you unless
11 you go talk to the archbishop"?
12 A. No, I have not learned that nor will I learn
13 that.
14 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance where the
15 confessor said to the priest who had raped a child, "I
16 will not extend absolution to you unless you present
17 yourself to the District Attorney"?
18 A. Again, I repeat, everything within the
19 confessional has to be kept within themselves. If, in
20 fact, a person presents himself to an official, he does
21 that on his own. No one will know that that came from a
22 confessor or not. Again, I'm repeating that the sacrament
23 of confession has to be kept in the internal forum. And
24 that's just the way it is, because it's dealing with the
25 spiritual reality.
Page 126
1 Again, I think we're combining the civil reality, the
2 civil consequences of an action, with the spiritual
3 consequences of an action. And we've been talking about
4 confession which deals really with the spiritual
5 consequences of the man's desire for forgiveness. If, in
6 fact, that person has not made a report, then it's the
7 obligation of that priest to so advise him that, in fact,
8 if he is truly repentant, he has to do something about it.
9 Q. And are you aware, sir, of any situation where
10 the confessor conditioned absolution on the priest who
11 raped a child going to the parents of that child and
12 apologizing to them?
13 A. No. I repeat what I said before. The sacrament
14 of confession must be kept intact.
15 Q. But you would see the objective manifestations
16 outside the confessional of such behavior, if it had
17 occurred, i.e., the priest would come to you and tell you
18 what he had done, or the priest would go to the DA, and
19 you would become quickly aware that your priest was under
20 criminal investigation, or the parents would be advised by
21 the priest who would have the opportunity to communicate
22 with you and say, "Did you know what he did?"
23 And did you see any such objective manifestations of
24 that type of behavior during the time that you were
25 archbishop?
Page 127
1 A. I don't have District Attorneys calling me
2 saying that, "Father X came here from a confessional and
3 reported this to me." That's not the thing that would
4 normally occur. So I would have to answer negative to
5 your question.
6 Q. Do you know, Archbishop Sanchez, if any priest
7 of the Archidocese of Santa Fe was absolved in the
8 confession for sexually abusing children?
9 A. I have no knowledge of absolution of any person
10 in the confessional, priest or laiety. That is why the
11 confessional is a closed quarter, and it's confidential to
12 the person making the confession and to the confessor.
13 Q. In the beliefs of the Church and in your own
14 beliefs, why doesn't the child have a right to know that
15 what the priest did was a sin, but the priest has the
16 right to be absolved for having done it?
17 A. I think that's an assumption on your part. The
18 child has every right to know that that is wrong. The
19 priest has a right to confess, as anyone else has a right
20 to confess. I don't think that you can make a distinction
21 that one does not have a right and the other has a right.
22 Q. How is the right of the child to know that what
23 was done to him was wrong, how is that being facilitated
24 by the secrecy that's attendant to the confessional?
25 A. I don't see how you can relate what -- the child
Page 128
1 to the confessional.
2 Q. How is the right of the child to know that he or
3 she has been wronged facilitated in any fashion in the
4 doctrine of the Church?
5 A. The Church has moral teachings to parents, to
6 those who are of age to be able to understand them. The
7 moral teaching has always been consistent regarding
8 morality, as well as doctrine of the Church. The people
9 of any parish, parents and youngsters, as well, would
10 understand that which is contrary to Church doctrine or
11 contrary to the law of God. And that's how they would
12 express it.
13 Q. Archbishop, are you saying that someone who has
14 been taught to believe that the hands of the priest are
15 instrumental in extending the Holy Sacraments of God to
16 that child that they would understand and know instantly
17 that when the priest said, "Okay. Now, I'm going to put
18 my penis in your mouth," they would understand that was
19 wrong, if he said it was God's will?
20 A. I would say -- I don't know what an individual
21 would understand, because I think we're making a
22 generalization without any particular individual in mind.
23 But I would say that children, although I've never been a
24 parent, children have been taught by their own parents as
25 to that which can be done and cannot be done in regards to
Page 129
1 their own body. Any violation of their body would be
2 considered wrong.
3 Q. Based on your knowledge of the Hispanic Catholic
4 community of northern New Mexico of 20 years ago, if
5 little Johnny had come home and said, "Mommy, the priest
6 put his penis in my mouth and made me suck on it," isn't
7 the most likely scenario that mommy would have slapped the
8 kid and said, "Don't lie about the priest"?
9 A. No, I could not accept that. I think that's
10 such a serious allegation. I think the mother would have
11 been shocked to hear this and would have been ready to
12 confront the priest or to question the child and say,
13 "Where did you get that idea?" And, "Tell me about it."
14 But I don't think that they would have simply punished the
15 child and said, "Forget about it."
16 Q. Let me ask this, Archbishop: Isn't it a fact
17 that you have seen, over the last two years, people coming
18 forward to whom this rape had happened in the '60s, in the
19 '70s, who in fact did not report it to their parents then?
20 A. This is their statement, that they had not
21 reported it to their parents. I cannot answer for them.
22 But I can say that in families, in our northern New Mexico
23 families that you've been using as examples, those
24 families are so closely knit and so close to one another
25 that there is not only parents, but there's grandparents
Page 130
1 and uncles and aunts or brothers or sisters to whom they
2 could very well relate this incident. I don't -- unless
3 it's their own feeling of shame that would prohibit them
4 from that. But it's not as though they are denied that
5 because their parents might get mad at them or something
6 of that nature.
7 Q. Can you appreciate that a child who was raped by
8 a priest might feel shamed by that, might wonder why God
9 had done that to them?
10 A. Yes, absolutely, yes. Yes, a child would
11 certainly feel shamed.
12 Q. And then not report that because of those
13 feelings of shame?
14 A. I don't know what their action or inaction would
15 be, but the shame certainly would be there.
16 Q. Are you saying, Archbishop, then, that it is not
17 the responsibility of the confessor to report the priest
18 rapist, but it is the responsibility of the child who was
19 raped to report the priest rapist?
20 A. I'm saying that the priest confessor cannot, in
21 his conscience, report anything that he hears in
22 confession because that is the teaching of the Church and
23 the promise that he has taken when he is granted the
24 faculties to hear confessions, that he keeps absolutely
25 secret all and everything that comes to him in the
Page 131
1 confession.
2 Q. Then do you see that if the child is too shamed
3 or too afraid, then you have no mechanism in the Church to
4 report the misconduct at all?
5 A. The child is not denied an opportunity to report
6 it to the child's family or to anyone else.
7 Q. But if the child is too ashamed or too afraid to
8 do it, isn't it true that there's no mechanism in the
9 Church for revealing priests who rape children?
10 A. What mechanism would you suggest? You seem to
11 have something in mind, and I'm wondering what you're
12 thinking about at this point.
13 Q. Let me ask you this, Archbishop: Are you
14 comfortable with the situation of confessors knowing that
15 their brother priests have raped children and not being
16 able to report it themselves to civil authorities?
17 A. I'm not comfortable with any type of sin or
18 abuse of other individuals, and I am not comfortable in
19 knowing that priests have to hear the confessions of
20 people and not been able to report anything. But I know
21 that the people coming to that confessional are coming
22 precisely because they know that Father is going to keep
23 to his heart all that they confess. Because their
24 confession pertains to themself and their God.
25 The consequences of any action that people have
Page 132
1 committed has to be done outside of that confessional.
2 Q. Are you familiar with the gospel of Mark 9:42?
3 A. I would appreciate it if you'd quote it.
4 Q. Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones
5 that believe in me, it were better that a millstone be
6 tied to his neck, and he be cast into the seA." Are you
7 familiar with that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you believe that?
10 A. I believe that, and I believe that the Lord
11 Jesus was emphasizing the importance to protect children,
12 not to scandalize them, to allow them to maintain their
13 integrity and their life.
14 Q. And what you have described -- forgive me --
15 this afternoon is an example of a shroud of secrecy that
16 has been imposed on child abuse by the Church, isn't it?
17 A. No, it's not a shroud of child abuse.
18 Q. Shroud of secrecy.
19 A. Or a shroud of secrecy. It is an opportunity
20 for people to make a confession without fear that that --
21 whatever they say in that confession is going to be
22 revealed. That has been going on in the Roman Catholic
23 Church for nearly 2,000 years and regardless of the kinds
24 of sins that have been confessed. -- many have been
25 confessed which involved murders and all kinds of awful
Page 133
1 offenses against people. But at the same time, the
2 integrity of confession must be maintained.
3 Q. In your heart of hearts, Archbishop, do you
4 believe that a priest who is so compelled to violate the
5 social contract that he would force his penis into the
6 mouth of a child and ejaculate into the mouth of that
7 child would nonetheless present himself voluntarily to
8 civil authorities to atone for that behavior? Can you
9 really believe that?
10 A. Probably not. I would not believe that. But at
11 the same time, a person who has done that, I cannot
12 visualize going to a priest for confession in order to set
13 himself right with his God. He realizes that he has done
14 something awful. I'm not certain whether that person has
15 the sincerity of his own heart to ask God's forgiveness
16 that he wants his life to be changed and that he's going
17 to do what is necessary to restore what he has offended.
22 A. No. You will not know, because that's between
23 myself and any confessor.
24 Q. And similarly, the rape of a child by a priest
25 therefore is between the priest and the confessor, with
Page 134
1 the child being out in the cold, unless that child has the
2 strength of will to report instantly; isn't that right?
3 A. You are making it sound, Mr. Pasternack, that
4 the only option for a child to report himself or a person
5 to report himself is the confessional. And you've
6 insisted upon the confession as being the only avenue.
7 And I don't agree with that.
8 Q. Well, do you think the priest is going to trot
9 down to the DA's office and say, "Sorry, I raped a kid"?
10 A. Maybe not down to the DA's office, but perhaps
11 to another person who could advise the priest that this
12 has to be done.
13 Q. And are you aware of that ever having happened
14 in the non-confessional setting of the "other person"?
15 A. Not to my knowledge.
16 Q. No. People who rape children tend not to
17 advertise that, don't they, Archbishop?
18 A. I would say they do not, yes.
19 Q. And under the structure of the Church, there is
20 no way for it to become reasonably known, is there?
21 A. Not through the sacrament of confession.
22 Q. And you haven't seen it become known in any
23 other way, have you?
24 MR. KONRAD: Objection to the extent that
25 the question implies that he has seen it happen in the
Page 135
1 sacrament of confession, and I'd like to object to the
2 whole line of questioning in that this is not just a Roman
3 Catholic Church doctrine. There is also a New Mexico rule
4 of evidence promulgated by the New Mexico Supreme Court
5 which prohibits a priest from revealing anything he learns
6 in a confession. So it's state law, as well as Roman
7 Catholic doctrine.
8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I might add that is not
9 much different than the attorney/client privilege.
10 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) You can go ahead and
11 answer, Archbishop. You have not seen it occur in any
12 non-confessional context, have you?
13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's asked and answered.
14 A. I don't believe I have.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you do believe, do you not, that the
16 rape of a child by a priest should have civil
17 consequences?
18 A. That's the law of the state.
19 Q. And were you to learn about the rape of a child
20 in a setting that did not involve the confessional, do you
21 feel that you would have a duty to report that rape?
22 A. The law of the state of New Mexico so states
23 that. In a former deposition, you asked me that question.
24 In fact, you asked when did you become aware of the
25 statute. And I believe I mentioned to you that my
Page 136
1 awareness came when we were preparing the policy on sexual
2 misconduct for the Archidocese of Santa Fe, which was
3 promulgated on July 1, 1990.
4 You indicated that the statute had become effective
5 sometime in the 1970s. I was unaware of such a statute or
6 even the date when it became effective. I'm not too
7 certain how many people were aware of it in the '70s. It
8 had not become a major issue among the legal profession or
9 even among the teaching profession, people dealing with
10 children, etc.
11 MR. KONRAD: I want to object to the
12 question on the ground that it's form calls for a legal
13 conclusion, and state for the record that the New Mexico
14 statute applies to abuse by a parent, guardian or
15 custodian. It does not say by a priest.
16 Q. Let me ask you this, Archbishop: If you had
17 received a letter from a parent where the child had, in
18 fact, reported, and the parents said, "My child was raped
19 by Father," would you have done anything about that in
20 terms of revealing the incident to civil authorities?
21 A. I think the first thing I would have done would
22 have been to meet with the family. The consequence for
23 civil authorities would probably be made known to me by an
24 attorney, because I would feel that that's something that
25 I would need to have advice upon; and if that advice is
Page 137
1 given, I would ask the attorney to make it known or
2 perhaps the parents.
3 Q. Do you recall ever getting any letters from
4 anyone who said to you, "Father has raped my child"?
5 A. No letters stating rape.
6 Q. How about, "Father has sexually molested my
7 child"?
8 A. Allegations of molestation, yes.
9 Q. And did you ever report any of those to civil
10 authorities?
11 A. I spoke to civil authorities in one case.
12 Q. What case was that?
13 A. The Clive Lynn case.
14 Q. Now, did you receive such reports from parents
15 in more than just the Clive Lynn case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you did not speak to civil authorities in
18 those other cases?
19 A. Did not. I spoke to the civil authority in the
20 Lynn case, Clive Lynn case, because the civil authority
21 had called about it, and we chatted regarding it. I was
22 even unaware at that time that there was an obligation to
23 report.
24 Q. So even in the one conversation you had, it was
25 not one initiated by you?
Page 138
1 A. Yes. If a person is unaware of an obligation,
2 that's not something, then, that you're going to fulfill.
3 Q. Well, putting aside the statutory obligation of
4 reporting that the State of New Mexico may or may not have
5 imposed on you, did you not feel a moral obligation to
6 report a priest in your charge who had raped a child?
7 A. In some instances, Mr. Pasternack, in dealing
8 with families, the family themselves would indicate that
9 they wanted this kept very quiet. The child, as well,
10 wanted it kept quiet and wanted us to deal with it as best
11 we could that way. They did not want publicity. I did
12 not speak about the legal authorities. But their own
13 insistence seem to have been that they simply did not want
14 a lot of talk or publicity or to-do about which they were
15 speaking.
16 Q. Forgive me, sir, but wasn't it your policy to,
17 in fact, communicate to the families that this was a
18 matter that should be kept within the Church and not
19 discussed with civil authorities?
20 A. No, it was not our policy that we had to keep
21 this within the Church. We never insisted that way. If
22 any parent felt that they wanted to go to civil
23 authorities, they had a right to go to civil authorities.
24 Q. You mentioned that you had received such -- a
25 letter, you know, complaining that the child had been
Page 139
1 sexually molested with regard to Clive Lynn, and I think
2 you said in some others. Do you recall the names of the
3 priests who were the subject of other written complaints
4 to you by parents or family members?
5 A. One that would come to mind right offhand was an
6 allegation about which we had a commission do an
7 investigation written by a mother or a grandmother of the
8 child, and that pertained to . The
9 investigation revealed that there had been no raping or no
10 real sexual encounter. And therefore, there was no
11 reporting of any kind that took place because of that.
12 Q. Any others?
13 A. I recall more the concept of people speaking to
14 their pastors and the pastor being able to bring that to
15 my attention, rather than in a letter form, but I'm trying
16 to think of a letter right offhand.
17 Q. Do you recall whether you ever got any letters
18 complaining that either Arthur Perrault or Sabine Griego
19 had sexually molested children?
20 A. I met with parents regarding Sabine Griego, and
21 I met with the family, the man and his wife and their
22 attorneys and therapists regarding Art Perrault.
23 Q. Sabine Griego was a friend of yours, wasn't he?
24 A. Almost all the priests of the archidocese were
25 my friends.
Page 140
1 Q. Was he, though, a more special friend, indeed
2 your best friend?
3 A. Oh, no, he was not my best friend. Special
4 inasmuch as he was one of the deans, because we had to
5 meet with deans more frequently. I would meet with him,
6 as well as the other deans. We did not spend time
7 together going to movies or recreation together. This was
8 not the type of friend that he was. I had other priest
9 friends who were closer to me for that.
10 Q. You lived with Sabine?
11 A. No, Sabine lived with me. And he lived with me
12 as a result of a consultation with his therapist and the
13 program of therapy that he had concluded at Southdown.
14 You recall I testified earlier that I was invited to
15 Southdown by the therapist for the exit interview; and
16 during that interview, they wanted to talk about where his
17 residence would be, and it was recommended to me that he
18 could -- if I would accept, that he would live with me, so
19 that I might have monitoring supervision over any people
20 who would come to see him.
21 And my stipulation to him was that no one was welcome
22 to visit him, outside of his family, immediate family,
23 because his mother is alive and his brothers. And he
24 agreed to that. That is why he lived with me.
25 And even in the living situation, there was no mutual
Page 141
1 going out to eat together, because his schedule was simply
2 different from mine.
3 Q. Who would you describe as your best friends in
4 the priesthood?
5 A. In the archidocese?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Father Leo Lucero. He's been my friend since we
8 were in high school together.
9 Q. If I understand correctly, Archbishop, the
10 Church's position on birth control was, is and remains one
11 of opposition to it; is that right?
12 A. Artificial birth control.
13 Q. Yes, the use of devices or pills to prevent
14 conception?
15 A. Yes.
Page 150
2 MR. PASTERNACK: Why don't we knock it off
3 for today.
4 MR. GOFFE: The time is 5:04, as indicated
5 on the screen. This is the end of tape 2 of the
6 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez. We are going off the
7 record and will resume on the 13th of January.
8 [The deposition was recessed at 5:04 PM]
10 * * * * * * * *
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