Volume 2 – Volume 2 of Part 1
Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez

January 13, 1994

Volume 1 – January 12, 1994
Volume 2 – January 13, 1994
Volume 3 – January 14, 1994
Volume 4 – January 15, 1994

Volume 5 – October 3, 1994
Volume 6 – October 4, 1994
Volume 7 – October 5, 1994
Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994

Page 150



5 Plaintiffs,

6 vs. CV-91-11688

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
10 _________________________________________________________

11 JOHN DOES IV and V,

12 Plaintiffs,

13 vs. CV-91-11989

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
17 _________________________________________________________


19 Plaintiffs,

20 vs. CV-91-12302

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
Page 151

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-92-00128

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
7 ________________________________________________________


9 Plaintiffs,

10 vs. CV-92-00312

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
14 _________________________________________________________

15 JOHN DOE XI through XVII,

16 Plaintiffs,

17 vs. CV-92-09746

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
Page 152

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-93-02879

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

7 Defendants.
vs. CV-93-02881
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
15 _________________________________________________________


17 Plaintiff,

18 vs. CV-93-02883

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

22 Defendants.
Page 153

2 Plaintiff,

3 vs. CV-93-06343

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

7 Defendants.
vs. CV-93-07186
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
15 ________________________________________________________


17 Plaintiff,

18 vs. CV-93-07188

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,

22 Defendants.
Page 154
vs. CV-92-06892
5 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
6 MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE SERVANTS
7 non-profit corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,

8 Defendants.

10 Plaintiff,

11 vs. CV-92-08011

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
14 OF THE PARACLETE, INC, a New Mexico non-profit
corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,
16 ________________________________________________________


18 Plaintiffs,

19 vs. CV-92-08933

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,

22 Defendants.
Page 155

3 Plaintiffs,

4 vs. CV-92-10319

OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,

7 Defendants.

8 ___________________________________________________________


January 13, 1994
12 9:22 AM
5625 Isleta Boulevard, SW
13 Albuquerque, NM



17 REPORTED BY: Jenifer L. Russin, RPR-CM, NM CCR #182
Russin Reporting
18 317 Commercial, NE, Suite 200-G
Albuquerque, NM 87102
Page 156
1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 For the Plaintiffs:

Two Woodward Center
4 700 Lomas, NE, Suite 100
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
425 Sandoval
8 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501

160 E. Flaming Gorge
10 Green River, Wyoming 82935

12 For the Witness:

Attorneys at Law
14 718 Central, SW
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

For the Defendant Archdiocese of Santa Fe:
18 6400 Uptown Blvd, NE, Suite 630E
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110

414 Silver Avenue, SW
21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
23 6400 Uptown Blvd., NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110

Page 157
1 For the Archdiocese of Santa Fe (cont.):

707 Broadway, NE
3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

5 For the Servants of the Paraclete:

500 Marquette, NW, Suite 1100
7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

Also Present:
Jerry Goffe


13 I N D E X


By Mr. Pasternack (Continued) 158
Page 158
1 MR. GOFFE: This is the continuance of the
2 testimony of Archbishop Sanchez in case numbers that will
3 be listed at the conclusion of this deposition from
4 January 12th, 1994. Today is January 13th, 1994. The
5 time, as indicated on the screen, is 9:22 AM. We are on
6 the record.
8 After having been previously duly sworn under oath,
9 was questioned and testified further as follows:
10 EXAMINATION (Continued)
12 Q. Good morning, Archbishop.
13 A. Good morning, Mr. Pasternack.
14 Q. Archbishop, I want to ask you a few questions to
15 begin with about the relationship, if any, between
16 Servants of the Paraclete and the Archdiocese as you
17 understood that relationship to exist.
18 Do you know whether there was any time under -- or
19 wherein Servants of the Paraclete or Via Coeli was under
20 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe?
21 A. As far as I know, Via Coeli was an independent
22 religious community that was established -- at least my
23 recollection is that it was established sometime in the
24 early 1950s as a center of retreat for priests. I'm not
25 certain when they assumed their incorporation papers. I'm
Page 159
1 sure the documentation would indicate that.
2 Q. I'm going to show you a letter which I'll mark
3 as Exhibit 2, which predated your installation as
4 Archbishop, but it purports to be on Servants of the
5 Paraclete letterhead to Dr. John Salazar, and says at the
6 bottom, on the preprinted letterhead, "Via Coeli is under
7 authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe."
8 And I simply want to ask you if that refreshes your
9 recollection about any period of time when such a
10 relationship existed.
11 [Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.]
12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, where
13 are you referring to?
14 MR. PASTERNACK: Look at the bottom,
15 please, on the preprinted letterhead, on the bottom.
16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Oh. This is a document
17 on Via Coeli letterhead. Okay.
18 A. Via Coeli is under the Archbishop of Santa Fe --
19 what's the date of that, '67?
20 Q. '67, yes.
21 A. The only thing that I can imagine that's
22 referring to, if in fact it is, would be a canonical
23 requirement for religious communities to become what they
24 call pontifical in nature. We don't have any particulars,
25 any information about the particulars of this community
Page 160
1 when they became pontifical in nature. But until they
2 become pontifical in nature, they then have reference to
3 the local diocesan bishop, not as their immediate
4 superior, but as a supervisor, much like he would be a
5 supervisor over any Catholic group of men or Catholic
6 group of women who might be organized in the Archdiocese.
7 Until that -- until they're recognized as a
8 pontifical community, they are considered to be a group of
9 pious men or a group of pious women who have organized
10 together for some specific purpose, and they have to have
11 like a spiritual director, a spiritual guide, and canon
12 law names the local ordinary, the local bishop, as that
13 person.
14 When the time comes that that group, both in numbers
15 and in their mission, are able to receive the permission
16 or the approval of the Holy Sea to be named a pontifical
17 religious community. Until that time, they're considered
18 to be under the direction of the code of canon law, which
19 calls, then, for the local bishop to have that spiritual
20 reflection with them as to their activity, whether it be
21 an organization like the Servants of the Paraclete or
22 whether it be an organization like local Knights of
23 Columbus or some other organization that is organized for
24 the purpose of good works within the diocese.
25 Q. Would a shorthand way of describing it be that
Page 161
1 until they get officially recognized by the Pope as their
2 own community that reports directly to the Pope, they
3 report to the local archbishop?
4 A. Not so much reporting, because they're
5 independent, but he has sort of like the -- I guess
6 responsibility for their spiritual activity. If they
7 begin to deal in things which are contrary to Church
8 teaching, it would be his responsibility to say, "Hey,
9 that's contrary to Church teaching."
10 Q. Do you know if and when Paraclete became
11 directly recognized by the Pope and was no longer under
12 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe?
13 A. I'm sure they were approved, but I don't have
14 any recollection when that date was, Mr. Pasternack.
15 Q. Are you aware of any time during which the
16 insurance that covered Servants of the Paraclete was
17 primarily designated under the name of the Archdiocese of
18 Santa Fe with Paraclete being a co-insured?
19 A. I have no idea about insurance. That was
20 never -- I'm a cleric, and insurance was just another
21 areA. I have no ideA.
22 Q. When you were Archbishop, how did you view the
23 relationship between the Servant General of Servants of
24 the Paraclete and you, as Archbishop?
25 A. I viewed him as being totally independent of
Page 162
1 myself, because they had their Servant General. The very
2 fact that they had a Servant General who was their number
3 one superior, they operated totally independent of the
4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. I was never consulted about
5 their meetings or their elections. They held everything
6 totally independent.
7 Q. What is Bethany House on the Rio Grande?
8 A. Bethany House on the Rio Grande is a home that
9 was established, I believe, sometime in the 1970s as a
10 retreat house for priests. One of the priests of the
11 Archdiocese, who is now deceased, Father Carl Hammer, had
12 spent several years working with priests around the
13 country in prayer groups trying to form centers of
14 spiritual enrichment for the clergy. They felt that this
15 was crucial.
16 And so when he returned to the Archdiocese, he
17 proposed that we would try to find a place that we could
18 designate as a center for spiritual enrichment where
19 priests could come and spend one, two, three days, if they
20 could afford it, or longer, and simply spend it in prayer,
21 have the spiritual guidance and direction of Father Carl
22 Hammer who would be there and be able to enrich their own
23 spirituality that way. And he envisioned it as serving
24 not only priests from the Archdiocese who might want to
25 avail themselves of that opportunity, but any other priest
Page 163
1 who might want to come in for that purpose.
2 Q. Was Bethany House on the Rio Grande, during your
3 tenure as Archbishop, under your authority?
4 A. It belonged to the Archdiocese -- well, it
5 didn't belong to us. We didn't own it, as such, for a
6 long time, but it was under my authority.
7 Q. What type of problems were you familiar with
8 that led priests to go to Bethany House?
9 A. It didn't require problems to use Bethany House.
10 It was a center of prayer. They had regular prayer
11 meetings for priests who wanted to attend every Thursday
12 evening. I recall their own ordination date as Thursday,
13 the day the Lord instituted the Last Supper and the
14 Eucharist and the priesthood. They had special gatherings
15 for days of recollection, where we would spend the day
16 together in meditation and reflection on one or another of
17 the mysteries of the Lord. It wasn't necessarily a center
18 for problem priests at all. Anyone could go there for
19 enrichment.
20 Q. Were you aware of any occasions on which a
21 priest with an alcohol problem or a sexual disorder went
22 to Bethany House on the Rio Grande?
23 A. It's possible that a priest who may have had a
24 problem with alcohol or sexuality was asked to go there
25 for a period of time, not for healing purposes so much as
Page 164
1 waiting to be transferred or waiting for some other
2 appointment, whatever it may be. I can't recall any
3 person, you know, individual name, but it's a possibility.
4 Q. Is it correct to say, then, that you don't
5 recall ever directing anyone to Bethany House for problems
6 relating to alcoholism or sexual misconduct?
7 A. I never asked anyone to go there because of
8 their alcoholism or sexual misconduct. I did ask priests
9 to go there as an interim between where they were serving
10 and until their next appointment, but not as a center for
11 cure or spiritual help that way.
12 Q. Let me try to rephrase it. Did you ever ask any
13 priest who you knew or suspected of having an alcohol or
14 sexual abuse problem to go to Bethany House?
15 A. You say, "to go to Bethany House." Do you have
16 in mind, Mr. Pasternack, a temporary visit, or did you
17 have in mind something permanent? I'm not quite certain
18 what you're --
19 Q. For whatever duration.
20 A. My memory doesn't recall individuals at all
21 right now, Mr. Pasternack. But I don't want to say that I
22 didn't, because that's a possibility. I could very well
23 have. There were various priests, as I say, who spent
24 time in Bethany House for various reasons, most of them
25 waiting for an assignment.
Page 165
1 Q. Were some of them also waiting for transport to
2 Servants of the Paraclete or Southdown?
3 A. I'm trying to recall any individual instances.
4 I do not have a memory that says I sent individuals there
5 for that purpose. It's possible. I could say that.
6 Q. What is the Dominican Retreat House?
7 A. The Dominican Retreat House is a center for
8 spiritual enrichment principally for the laity of the
9 Archdiocese. And in recent years, it's also taken on an
10 ecumenical tone inasmuch as the facility is open to other
11 ecumenical groups of other denominations.
12 The New Mexico Conference of Churches has used it
13 extensively. Various churches, non-Catholic churches in
14 Albuquerque, have asked to use the facility, as well, for
15 their retreats. But most of the time, it is a center for
16 spiritual enrichment for the Catholic people of the
17 Archdiocese of Santa Fe operated by Dominican Sisters.
18 Q. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the -- is the
19 Bethany House on Pajarito Road?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And is it close to the facility that Servants of
22 the Paraclete operates on Pajarito Road?
23 A. It happens to be close to that facility, but
24 there is no relationship between the two. I would like to
25 clarify here that the reason why that property on Pajarito
Page 166
1 Road, which is now known as Bethany House, why that was
2 obtained was through the generosity of a family here in
3 Albuquerque who heard that Father Hammer was looking for a
4 place. They owned that property and offered it, then, to
5 the Archdiocese for use on a rental basis and ultimately
6 with the option to purchase, if we so chose. But the only
7 reason that was selected was because of the generosity of
8 a donor.
9 Q. So was the Servants of the Paraclete facility on
10 Pajarito already there at the time that Bethany House was
11 opened?
12 A. Oh, it had been there for many years, yes.
13 Q. What was your understanding of the function of
14 the Servants of the Paraclete facility on Pajarito Road
15 during the time that you were Archbishop?
16 A. The facility on Pajarito Road operated by the
17 Servants of the Paraclete -- I believe it's commonly
18 referred to as simply "the VillA." I had the
19 understanding that it was a center perhaps with two
20 purposes: One, to accommodate several senior priests from
21 throughout the country who needed at least minimal care to
22 see that they were not eating foods that would be harmful
23 to them -- many were diabetic in their advanced age -- and
24 to see that they would take the proper medicines and
25 prescriptions at the proper times. They had several men
Page 167
1 there who were, in a sense, dependent upon others for
2 that, so they could go there. That was one aspect of it,
3 as I recall.
4 The second aspect was that it would also serve as a
5 house to accommodate those priests who had attended their
6 program in Jemez Springs, and having completed the
7 program, the center at the Villa would be like a halfway
8 house or a station where they would be allowed to remain
9 for whatever period of time that they had designated
10 before returning them to their own diocese, or whatever
11 ultimate decision was made for them.
12 Q. Now, when you say halfway house for those who
13 had attended the Paraclete program in Jemez, would that
14 include those who attended for substance abuse problems
15 like alcoholism?
16 A. I believe it did, because to the best of my
17 recollection -- and I was not -- I did not have intimate
18 knowledge of the Servants of the Paraclete in those years,
19 but it was my understanding, especially in the early '70s
20 and I suppose in the '60s, as well, that they did have a
21 facility -- they were trying to treat alcoholic problems,
22 and that was a center in Jemez Springs where they would
23 treat priests who had suffered from alcoholism. And I
24 would imagine, then, that if the Villa was opened by that
25 time -- I have no idea when it was started. But if it was
Page 168
1 opened, it would have served as a halfway house between
2 the treatment center and the return to their own diocese.
3 Q. And to your knowledge, did it also serve as a
4 halfway house between Servants of the Paraclete's
5 treatment program for those who had been accused of sexual
6 misconduct and a return to society?
7 A. I would imagine it served as a halfway house for
8 any program that they had at Jemez Springs. I think that
9 was its purpose. I'm not certain how extensive their work
10 was with sexual misconduct cases in the '60s or early
11 '70s. As I say, I'm simply not aware of their programs.
12 They existed quite independent of myself, and my
13 relationship was more of a cordial one to their superior.
14 Q. By the time you became Archbishop, or within a
15 short period thereafter, you knew, did you not, that
16 Paraclete was providing rehabilitative services to priests
17 who had been accused of sexual offenses?
18 A. I would say that I was aware that that was part
19 of their program. But I can honestly say, my recollection
20 is that their services seemed to me to be principally
21 directed toward alcoholism and towards a geriatric program
22 for priests who seemed to have a dependency and had no
23 other place to stay in this country, and they would come,
24 and many stayed there, and many have died there.
25 Q. But part of what you knew was that they provided
Page 169
1 services for sexual offenders?
2 A. Yes, I said that, yes.
3 Q. Now, during the time that you were Archbishop,
4 did you on occasion receive requests from Servants of the
5 Paraclete to have people in their treatment programs serve
6 in supply ministry throughout the Archdiocese?
7 A. Request was made from time to time whether I
8 would be able to accommodate a priest for a period of
9 three weeks or three months, whatever period, and I
10 believe the majority of the time -- and I'm trying to
11 remember any individual. My reply was that we simply did
12 not have the facilities to be able to accommodate priests
13 who were in a halfway situation. I felt that that was a
14 responsibility that I could not accept. But requests were
15 made.
16 Q. I just want to make sure that I understand you,
17 and it's clear to those who may someday see this tape.
18 A. Sure.
19 Q. Are you saying that you don't recall any
20 situation during your tenure as Archbishop where Paraclete
21 asked you if one of their guests could serve in a supply
22 ministry, and you gave permission for that?
23 A. No, sir, I'm saying that I do recall the
24 requests being made. I'm trying to recall whether
25 permission was given to any individual. I believe that
Page 170
1 the majority of the time, I replied apologetically that we
2 were unable to accommodate the request.
3 Q. If the Archdiocese had a situation where a
4 priest was in an outpost like you were in early in your
5 priesthood, Mosquero, and that priest would need to take a
6 vacation or attend to personal business, were residents of
7 Servants of the Paraclete ever used under your tenure as
8 Archbishop to fill in for the priest?
9 A. Not that I can recall.
10 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge of whether such
11 events occurred under the tenure of former Archbishop
12 Davis?
13 A. One event comes to mind. I learned about it
14 through the newspapers. I was unaware of the priest. I
15 had never heard his name before. I believe the name was
16 Father Porter. And a newspaper reported that he had
17 spent, I guess, one or two weekends at Truth or
18 Consequences as a supply priest. And that's the only case
19 that I can recall reading about.
20 Q. What was your understanding, while Archbishop,
21 of the Pecos monastery?
22 A. The monastery in Pecos is a -- it's an abbey --
23 you might want to use that term -- operated by the
24 Benedictine Fathers. It was originally operated by them
25 as a retreat center for general retreats, and then later
Page 171
1 became more specified in the type of retreats they
2 offered. They began to be associated with the Catholic
3 Charismatic Renewal Movement. I'm not going to take time
4 to describe that, because we'll be here the rest of the
5 day. But they became known throughout the nation as a
6 center of retreats with that special aspect and
7 spirituality of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. It is
8 totally independent of the Archdiocese, and they operate
9 their own retreat house according to their own guidelines.
10 They make no reports to me about the retreats they hold or
11 the number of people who are there. I'm always welcome or
12 was always welcome to visit them from time to time.
13 [Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.]
14 Q. Archbishop, I am attaching as Exhibit 3 to the
15 deposition a letter dated October 4, 1978, from Joseph
16 McNamera, Servant General of Servants of the Paraclete, to
17 you. I wonder if you'd take a look at this and see if you
18 recall having seen it before.
19 A. Yes, sir, I have seen that, yes.
20 Q. And does that suggest to you, Archbishop, that
21 at least on that occasion Servants of the Paraclete did
22 ask you if one of their priests, in particular, Father
23 Jason Sigler, could be used by the Archdiocese of Santa Fe
24 to do supply ministry?
25 A. Yes.
Page 172
1 MR. KONRAD: I object to the form of the
2 question as it mischaracterizes Jason Sigler as a priest
3 of Servants of the Paraclete when he was a priest of the
4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe.
5 [The witness conferred with his attorney.]
6 A. I'd like to clarify that, if I could. Jason
7 Sigler had served in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. He was
8 not an incardinated priest of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe.
9 But his position had been working with the Archdiocese;
10 and therefore, he was known to us. He was not a total
11 stranger, as might another person be, that the Servants of
12 the Paraclete might ask us to accommodate. So in that
13 sense, he had been with us; although, technically
14 speaking, he was not incardinated.
15 Q. Was he a resident of Servants of the Paraclete
16 at the time this request for him to serve in supply
17 ministry was made?
18 A. Yes. The letter so indicates.
19 Q. And in fact, had he not been directed to go to
20 Servants of the Paraclete by you prior to October of '78?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, in fact, hadn't he been directed to go to
23 Servants of the Paraclete by you because of accusations
24 made regarding sexual misconduct in Las Vegas, New Mexico,
25 at Immaculate Conception Church?
Page 173
1 A. No, sir, I would have to clarify that. In 1978,
2 to the best of my recollection, the allegations that were
3 made against Father Jason Sigler were allegations about
4 his temper, his abusive manner, the language that he was
5 using both from the pulpit, as well as in personal
6 relationships, all of which were very insulting and
7 offensive to the people.
8 That type of temperament had been brought to my
9 attention more than once, and this seriously concerned me.
10 My decision to send him to the Servants of the Paraclete
11 for some therapy was based on the anger which he seemed to
12 display which was totally opposed to the character that a
13 priest must present to people when ministering to them.
14 Q. When this tape is seen and considered by a jury,
15 they are going to, I believe, be confronted with certain
16 factual issues which they have to resolve.
17 A. Yes.
Page 175
18 A. Mr. Pasternack, in another deposition prior to
19 this one, you questioned me about Jason Sigler. I told
20 you that to the best of my recollection, he was sent to
21 Jemez Springs for the purposes of corrective -- for his
22 character of anger, and I have repeated that here at this
23 time. I would disagree, then, as to the reason why he was
24 sent.
25 Q. And I just -- I simply want to make sure of
Page 176
1 that. Are you saying that you do not recall or that you
2 absolutely deny having confronted him prior to October 4,
3 '78?
4 A. As I remember, any denial is based on one's
5 recollection. I mean, that's where truth comes from. And
6 my recollection tells me that -- and I swear to God --
7 that all of the allegations -- not allegations but
8 accusations that people are making to me were that they
9 were being offended by his language, that he was insulting
10 to them, and they felt that he needed help because of
11 this, and how could he serve as a priest when he was
12 turning people off this way.
13 Q. What people made those accusations to you?
14 A. I don't recall names of the people, sir.
15 Complaints about priests or what they say from the pulpit
16 come in from time to time, and I don't make a log of those
17 complaints. They were made oftentimes by the pastor, and
18 would say that, "This man seems to need help because of
19 his own anger and his temperament which was offensive."
Page 202
10 Q. When did you first make the acquaintance of
11 Father , if you recall?
12 A. I think I may have met him even in the 1960s. I
13 think I may have -- there are priest gatherings. He
14 wasn't a friend and never was close as a friend. But I
15 would have known him as early as the '60s.
16 Q. Did you know him at all in Rome?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Did you ever know whether or not he came to New
19 Mexico originally via Servants of the Paraclete?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall him serving at ?
22 A. Yes, I can recall that he was, I believe, an
23 associate pastor, assistant to whoever the pastor was
24 there at the time.
25 Q. That was before your installation as Archbishop.
Page 203
1 Do you recall him serving at when you
2 were Archbishop?
3 A. Yes, I recall he was the associate there, as
4 well.
5 Q. Were any complaints ever brought to you about
6 sexual misconduct by Father while he was at
7 ?
8 A. None.
9 Q. Our understanding is he then went to
10 ; do you recall that?
11 A. I recall he served at , right.
12 Q. Do you recall any complaints about sexual
13 misconduct on his part at ?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Do you recall, up until, let's say, August of
16 1991, when lawsuits started to be filed, do you recall any
17 complaints against ?
18 A. Not of a sexual nature.
Page 209
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Briefly yesterday we discussed Father Arthur
18 Anstiss?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he ever come to you and report any
21 complaints about sexual misconduct by priests?
22 A. No, sir, none that I can remember at all.
23 Q. Yesterday you talked a little bit about Father
24 Ed Donnollan and Hacienda de los Muchachos; and, as I
25 recall, you indicated part of your concern in shutting
Page 210
1 down that facility were allegations about possible sexual
2 misconduct; is that a fair summary?
3 A. No, I think I mentioned yesterday that the
4 shutting down of the facility was due to very poor
5 administrative directives that he had and practices with
6 the youngsters. There had been complaints about his
7 methods of trying to rehabilitate these children; and
8 ultimately in dealing with the Health and Social Services,
9 they felt that his methods were poor, and that they
10 recommended that it would be shut down. And so I did it.
11 Q. Did you yesterday refer to general allegations
12 of a sexual nature with regard to Ed Donnollan?
13 A. I don't believe I did. Maybe I did. It's
14 possible.
15 Q. At Page 70 of yesterday's transcript, I asked
16 you, "Do you remember generally allegations having been
17 made about sexual contact between Father Ed and the boys?"
18 And your answer -- and I'll show this to you -- is, "There
19 may have been general allegations made. I would have to
20 say that, yes." If you'll --
21 A. Yes. Okay, thank you.
22 Q. And now that you've had an opportunity to
23 refresh your recollection --
24 A. Right.
25 Q. -- what, if anything, do you recall about these
Page 211
1 general allegations?
2 A. As I recall, the allegations -- or concerns
3 rather than allegations. They were concerns that were
4 being expressed by either -- if I recall, either staff
5 members or people who, I gather, must have lived in the
6 vicinity or somehow were related to the Ranch. They
7 expressed concern that his methods of dealing with the
8 children at times were severe. I'm trying to remember
9 some details. He seemed to have a sense of punishment of
10 these -- these were juveniles, as I understand it, who
11 were provided by the State of New Mexico for -- I don't
12 know what you'd call it -- guidance or keeping. Rather
13 than in a juvenile detention center, they would be able to
14 kept in a home. And so the Ranch provided that type of a
15 setting.
16 But his method of dealing with those boys apparently
17 was different than people would have felt it should have
18 been. I think they had to earn good-time for themselves.
19 He made certain that they were either excluded from
20 certain activities or included. They had to prove
21 themselves.
22 But in general, the people did express concern about
23 Father's relationship to the boys. But I don't recall any
24 specific allegation, Mr. Pasternack.
25 Q. Well, yesterday when you were asked if there
Page 212
1 were allegations of sexual contact between Father Ed and
2 the boys, you said, "There may have been general
3 allegations made. I would have to say, yes." And I'd
4 like to focus in on these sexual contact allegations.
5 A. Fine, okay.
6 Q. What did you hear about sexual contact between
7 Father Ed and the boys?
8 A. The sexual contact that would have been in my
9 mind with that would have been any physical contact
10 between Father and the boys at the Ranch either in the
11 form of discipline, in the form of recreation, being
12 close -- I just don't recall if anyone mentioned anything
13 specifically. But they seemed to give indication that
14 there was inappropriate relationship, inappropriate
15 behavior between Father and the boys, but I don't know
16 what that behavior might have been.
17 Q. Well -- and please understand, I'm not asking
18 about discipline.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm asking, what were the allegations of sexual
21 contact that led you to answer the way you did yesterday?
22 A. I answered in response to your question about
23 general allegations, and that's what I'm trying to recall.
24 I don't recall anything specific.
25 But the general allegations, the type of concern that
Page 213
1 was expressed by the people, may have included -- probably
2 did include, in their mind -- a concern for the proper
3 relationship between Father Ed and those boys.
4 Q. Whatever the concerns expressed to you were, did
5 it cause you to have concern that Father Ed was having
6 sexual contact with the boys?
7 A. It raised a concern in my mind. You know, the
8 people who had contacted me -- I'm just trying to remember --
9 seemed to be very good people who must have lived in the
10 areA. I think they had respect for Father Ed and were
11 concerned about the whole operation of the Ranch and
12 whether it should even continue. I don't recall them
13 zeroing in on any specific allegation of sexual
14 misconduct, but their general concern was his relationship
15 to those boys.
16 Q. You have indicated that you had a concern about
17 sexual contact. Did you discuss your concern with Father
18 Ed?
19 A. I know I met with Father Ed -- could I just
20 reflect a second?
21 Q. Certainly.
22 A. And try to remember. I know I met with Father
23 Ed more than once regarding the whole situation of the
24 Ranch, and I asked him specific questions regarding the
25 conduct of the Ranch and his relationship to the boys, how
Page 214
1 he governed them, concerns about discipline. There was
2 also in the concerns of the people one issue that they
3 brought to my attention. It was apparently a room set
4 apart for TV, some type of recreation for themselves, and
5 they were concerned about what all was occurring within
6 that one room. And I know I asked him specifically about
7 any type of recreation center that he had for the boys and
8 what took place in that room.
9 I can't recall any type of reply on his part that
10 would have indicated that something wrong or anything was
11 taking place there. This goes back 20 years. I don't
12 know. The best of my recollection, he gave me the
13 impression that his relationship to the boys was proper,
14 that it was severe at times and perhaps would be
15 criticized by others because they didn't understand his
16 procedures.
17 Q. Did you ask Father Ed specifically about whether
18 he had engaged in any sexual contact with the boys?
19 A. I don't recall asking him specifically, Mr.
20 Pasternack. I do recall asking him about the recreation
21 room, because that seemed to have been the center of the
22 concern of people, and I asked him for an explanation of
23 that recreation center.
24 Q. Did you ask him if he was having sexual contact
25 with the boys in the recreation room?
Page 215
1 A. I don't recall asking him that question.
2 Q. Is it your testimony, then, sir, that although
3 you had some concerns about whether there may have been
4 sexual contact, you didn't ask him directly, as far as you
5 recall, about whether there was; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Did you or any of your representatives ever talk
8 to the boys at Father Ed's boys' ranch, Hacienda de los
9 Muchachos, and ask them if Father Ed had engaged them in
10 sexual contact?
11 A. I did not speak to any of the boys personally.
12 I did ask a priest to visit the Hacienda for me and speak
13 to the people who were there to give me an idea of how it
14 was being operated and so forth. I did not receive any
15 allegations from that priest in reference to his visit.
16 The Health and Social Services apparently would visit the
17 home, or the Ranch, regularly for their own reports, since
18 they had an outreach in that area of the state. It was
19 their responsibility, since it was a State operation, to
20 be able to inquire from the boys, inquire from the staff,
21 as well as from the director, as to the appropriateness of
22 the facility and its operation. If anything was to be
23 revealed, it would have been revealed to those officials,
24 because that was their principal responsibility.
25 I think the reason why people were writing to me was
Page 216
1 because the director of that home, or that Ranch, was a
2 priest, and they wanted to bring that to my attention. It
3 seems to me that the ones they could well have spoken to
4 regarding anything else would have been the
5 representatives from Health and Social Services whenever
6 they came to them.
7 Q. Do you recall the name of the priest that you
8 sent to investigate the Ranch?
9 A. Yes. It was the dean of the northeastern
10 deanery of our priests at that time, Father Sabine Griego.
11 Q. At the time you sent Father Sabine to
12 investigate Father Ed's boys' ranch, were you aware of
13 whether Father Sabine was having sex with any boys?
14 A. No, sir, I was not.
15 Q. Okay. You said that the investigator, Father
16 Sabine, talked to the people. Do you know whether he
17 talked to the boys?
18 A. I do not know that for a fact. I had asked him
19 to visit the home and provide me with whatever information
20 he would have, but I don't recall exactly what his report
21 contained to me or whether he had visited with the boys
22 themselves. That, I don't know.
23 Q. After you closed down the Ranch, did you assign
24 Father Ed to a parish assignment or put him on retirement,
25 or what?
Page 217
1 A. After the Ranch was eventually closed -- and it
2 took a while. The boys were removed quickly, but the
3 Ranch had to be -- it was apparently property that was
4 owned by some group, and they had to dispose of the
5 animals, as well as the other facilities. That took a few
6 months.
7 To the best of my recollection, Father was then
8 assigned to a parish in northeastern New Mexico, as pastor
9 of the combined parish of Roy and Mosquero. In fact, I
10 had been pastor there myself.
11 Q. I understand that he now lives at Holy Ghost in
12 the rectory?
13 A. Yes, he does.
14 Q. Did you play any part in making the facilities
15 of Holy Ghost available to him in his retirement?
16 A. When I left he was not retired. He was assigned
17 as a chaplain to the hospital of Lovelace Hospital,
18 because Holy Ghost is close to it. And he was to visit
19 the hospital there and be on call for any emergencies.
20 However, almost a year prior to -- it must have been
21 around 1992, he was suffering his own physical illnesses
22 and was -- and had operations, I believe, on his legs or
23 so, which incapacitated him from continuing as chaplain,
24 although he was looking forward to recovery, so that he
25 might continue it. But apparently, he was unable to
Page 218
1 continue. I was unaware that he is retired there.
2 Q. While you were Archbishop, you knew that he was
3 living on the premises at Holy Ghost, didn't you?
4 A. Oh, yes, I asked him to live at Holy Ghost
5 parish in order to be close to Lovelace Clinic, because it
6 gives him access to the clinic for emergencies just within
7 five minutes. He can report there.
8 Q. Holy Ghost also has a parochial school, doesn't
9 it?
10 A. Holy Ghost has a parochial school.
11 Q. And there are boys who attend that parochial
12 school, aren't there?
13 A. Boys and girls, yes.
14 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did it
15 cause you any concern that this man about whom at least
16 there had been general allegations of sexual misconduct
17 with boys, and he was being asked to live on the grounds
18 on the facility that had a parochial school?
19 A. He was asked to live at the rectory. The
20 rectory is removed from the school by a full block. He
21 had no relationship to the school or to the parish. He
22 was simply living in the rectory and was able, then, to
23 drive from there to Lovelace Clinic.
24 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did
25 you ever admonish him to stay away from the boys at the
Page 219
1 school?
2 A. I don't recall any specific admonition.
3 Q. The rectory where he lives is directly across
4 the street from a playground, isn't it?
5 A. It's set across the street from a playground,
6 approximately a block apart.
7 Q. During the process of closing down the Ranch or
8 at any time thereafter, did you or anyone under your
9 direction approach any of the boys and suggest counseling?
10 A. Sir, I was not operating the Ranch. The Ranch
11 was the responsibility of Health and Social Services. The
12 only relationship to the Ranch was Father Ed Donnollan.
13 I did not know the boys. I did not know where they
14 were from or what homes they belonged to within the state.
15 Q. They were -- for the most part, weren't they
16 Catholic boys from New Mexico?
17 A. Not necessarily, sir. That's an assumption on
18 your part. The boys that Health and Social Services feel
19 free to assign to any group home come from throughout the
20 state and from any background. They are not necessarily
21 Catholic boys. This was not a Catholic home.
22 Q. When you suggested or directed that Father Ed go
23 live at the rectory at Holy Ghost, did you or any of your
24 staff issue any warnings or admonitions to the
25 parishioners at Holy Ghost that this person about whom you
Page 220
1 had at least at one point had concerns about sexual
2 misconduct was now joining them in their midst?
3 A. No, I did not, sir. And I'd like to state for
4 the record that the issue of the Ranch took place in the
5 mid '70s. His assignment to Holy Ghost parish took place
6 about 1990 or '91. That's a good, whatever, 15 years
7 apart. And in all of that time, there had been no
8 allegations brought to my attention by anyone against that
9 gentleman.
10 Q. Do you know whether Father Ed was ever a
11 resident at Servants of the Paraclete?
12 A. No, I do not know that.
13 Q. Did you ever direct Father Ed to any treatment
14 facility?
15 A. Not to a treatment facility. I asked him to see
16 a psychiatrist in town for the purpose of reviewing his
17 own attitude and his anger. He was a man that had a way
18 of intimidating people because, first of all, his size.
19 He's a very tall man, large man. And oftentimes his voice
20 would be very stern, offensive against people, and they
21 would complain to me about his anger. I asked him
22 specifically to see a psychiatrist in town about that, and
23 he did.
24 Q. Who?
25 A. Just give me a second. I believe it was Dr.
Page 221
1 Paul DeBlassie.
2 Q. And did Dr. DeBlassie send reports to you about
3 Father Ed?
4 A. Not reports. I never received written reports
5 from Dr. DeBlassie, although we did speak on the phone
6 about once, perhaps twice.
7 Q. And what did he tell you?
8 A. That he was working with Father Ed, that they
9 were meeting regularly, and would do his best to help
10 correct it.
11 I do recall him mentioning that the age of Father,
12 because he was not young, he seems to be set in his ways,
13 that it would be difficult to change some habits.
14 Q. Did your discussions with Dr. DeBlassie include
15 any references to sexual activities by Father Ed?
16 A. No, it did not.
17 Q. And you don't recall getting any letters from
18 DeBlassie; is that right?
19 A. I don't recall getting any letters, no.
20 Q. Did Father Ed advise you during the latter parts
21 of your service as Archbishop, that he -- whether he was
22 sending out letters to boys that he had had sex with
23 encouraging them not to come forward?
24 A. No, sir, not at all. The only kind of letters
25 that I recall being mentioned to me were letters
Page 222
1 soliciting funds from donors because apparently donors
2 were helping to maintain some of the expenses and repairs
3 on the Ranch.
4 Q. Let's talk about Father Esquivel, then, for a
5 minute. You indicated yesterday that Father Esquivel was
6 indeed "father" Esquivel. Do you recall approximately
7 when he fathered a child?
8 A. In the 1970s. Middle or late 1970s. Yes.
9 Q. And did he admit to you that he did that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you require him or ask him to sign an
12 affidavit of paternity and to pay child support?
13 A. I placed him in the -- I guess the
14 responsibility of an attorney, so that those items would
15 be properly addressed.
16 Q. Which attorney was that?
17 A. I believe, and I'm not certain, but I believe it
18 is a deceased attorney, Mr. Bingham. I think that was his
19 name. I'm not certain. I would have to -- I'm just -- I
20 know that the attorney who served us in the very first few
21 years died. But I'm trying to recall his name. But I
22 think that was the attorney that handled his case.
23 [A discussion was held off the record.]
24 Q. Do you recall the name of the woman with whom
25 Father Esquivel fathered the child?
Page 223
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. Was Father Esquivel required to enter into any
3 treatment or therapy as a part of the resolution of this
4 situation?
5 A. Yes, he was.
6 Q. And what treatment or therapy was that?
7 A. We asked Father Esquivel to attend a program at
8 Guest House. It was a program for basically alcoholism
9 and any other related features, and he attended that
10 program.
11 Q. What is Guest House?
12 A. Guest House is a residential treatment center.
13 Q. Where?
14 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's MinnesotA.
15 I'm not too certain which city. It may be Rochester,
16 St. Paul. It's in MinnesotA.
17 Q. Should we conclude from this that Father
18 Esquivel acknowledged an alcohol problem to you, as well?
19 A. Oh, yes.
20 Q. And did he blame his alcohol problem for his
21 sexual indiscretions?
22 A. I don't believe there was any -- I don't recall
23 him blaming his alcohol problem on the other indiscretion.
24 I don't think he linked that together.
25 Q. Was he required to perform any penance in
Page 224
1 consequence of having deviated from his promise of
2 chastity?
3 A. Well, I think the penance was to leave the
4 Archdiocese, leave the ministry, and to enter into a
5 program of rehabilitation. And they do have the spiritual
6 counseling that goes along with the therapy, as well.
7 Q. Do you recall about how long he was gone?
8 A. It was their full program, which must have been
9 probably close to six months, three to six months. I'm
10 not certain.
11 Q. And when he returned, was he given a job in the
12 chancery?
13 A. Yes. He was not placed in a parish position.
14 Q. Why?
15 A. We felt that we would be able to monitor his
16 work, see how he was going to conduct himself, and he
17 could do effective work for us at that time in the
18 chancery, as well.
19 Q. What was his position in the chancery?
20 A. His position was to be a liaison with the
21 Hispanic Catholic population in the Archdiocese and with
22 any reference to the Hispanic population throughout the
23 country.
24 Q. Approximately when did he begin to serve in that
25 function?
Page 225
1 A. I don't recall the dates, but I would imagine
2 it's late 1970s.
3 Q. And by approximately what point was he then
4 placed back into parish work?
5 A. He served in that capacity for approximately, I
6 would say, at least three years. I don't recall those
7 particulars, Mr. Pasternack. I would have to see a
8 curriculum vitae of some kind to help just -- I don't know
9 if you have anything handy to help my memory, but I would
10 certainly welcome that, so I can be as accurate as
11 possible for the testimony.
12 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the
13 tape now?
14 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:46. We will go
15 off the record. This is the end of tape 3 in the
16 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
17 [A recess was taken.]
18 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:50 AM. We are
19 back on the record. This is the beginning of tape number
20 4 of the deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
21 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, when Father
22 Esquivel left his work at the chancery, do you recall what
23 his first parish assignment was?
24 A. I can't recall that. I was hoping I could, but
25 I just -- maybe you could help me out.
Page 226
1 Q. I don't know.
2 A. And I don't recall, sorry.
3 Q. Were there any complaints about sexual
4 misconduct by Father Esquivel while he was working in the
5 chancery?
6 A. No. There were no complaints that came to me
7 while he was working in the chancery.
8 Q. Was there a time when complaints again did come
9 to your attention?
10 A. Yes. Complaints began to surface, if I recall
11 correctly, towards the latter part of the '80s, maybe '86,
12 '87. And the concern was, again, that it appeared he was
13 drinking, that he was resorting back to alcohol, and it
14 was becoming evident apparently to the parishioners.
15 I then confronted him again and required him to
16 return to Guest House to undergo additional rehabilitation
17 in reference to alcohol. They have a separate program for
18 that, for anyone who seems to be falling back into the
19 original weakness. And so they scheduled him for their
20 program, and he left and went through the entire program
21 with them.
22 Q. At the time you sent him back to Guest House
23 where was he serving as a parish priest?
24 A. That's what I can't recall. I think it may have
25 been in Los Lunas. But I'm not certain if he was
Page 227
1 someplace else before going to Los Lunas. It may have
2 been Los Lunas at that time.
3 Q. Did the complaints that were expressed to you
4 about Father Esquivel in the late 1980s include complaints
5 about alleged sexual misconduct?
6 A. Not at that time. At that time, if I recall
7 correctly, they were concerned about him not being
8 available, being gone, appearing to be influenced with
9 alcohol when he met with people. Anger was beginning to
10 make itself present in his relationships to people, making
11 quick decisions about who should serve in what
12 organization, and oftentimes telling people that they
13 could no longer be members of this organization or that.
14 And there was just a lot of hurt, apparently, that was
15 taking place because of it.
16 Q. When did allegations of sexual misconduct by
17 Father Esquivel come to your attention?
18 A. That was raised directly around -- within the
19 last -- within the last two years. It must have been some
20 time in 1992. 1992 or 1991. I'm just -- perhaps '92.
21 Q. Let me ask you, you say it was raised directly.
22 Was there a time before that where it was raised
23 indirectly to you?
24 A. No. What I meant by "directly" was that the
25 complaint or information given me was they felt that there
Page 228
1 had been some type of abuse of youngsters at the parish,
2 and that was a direct statement. I had not received any
3 indirect statement before, except regarding his personal
4 conduct because of alcohol.
5 Q. And who was it who brought to you these direct
6 complaints about alleged sexual misconduct?
7 A. It was a woman of the parish.
9 A. That rings a bell. That may be the name. I
10 don't know why there's another name that stays in my mind.
11 I think the name Dolores, but I might be confusing them.
12 I would not be able to testify that it was certainly that
13 name. But in any event, it was a woman who brought the
14 concern to our attention.
15 Q. By "our," you mean your?
16 A. Well, to the Archdiocese, to myself, and I would
17 share that with Father Wolf.
18 Q. And did you talk directly to this woman?
19 A. No. I had Father Wolf contact the parties.
20 Q. And what did Father -- did you ever talk to any
21 victim or family member -- excuse me, alleged victim or
22 family member of alleged victim of Father Esquivel?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. I take it you had Father Wolf investigate; is
25 that correct?
Page 229
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what did he report back to you?
3 A. He reported that what the woman had, in fact,
4 alleged.
5 Q. What did he say?
6 A. He said that while Father was at the parish of
7 Los Lunas that these -- that this woman, whatever her name
8 was, said that her sons had been altar boys for him and
9 that they felt that he had been using drugs, alcohol, and
10 that they had been abused by him, and I believe
11 something -- and I'm not really sure about this, how it
12 went, but apparently one or two of the sons, I don't
13 recall, apparently are presently in a prison in California
14 somewhere, and they had informed their mother about this
15 and felt that they wanted her to know that Father had done
16 this to them when they were younger. I don't know whether
17 they were invited to drink, but they did say that he was
18 drinking, that he had been using drugs and that he had
19 molested them.
20 Q. What action, if any, did you take when Father
21 Wolf brought you this information?
22 A. I immediately confronted Father Esquivel and
23 told him that these serious allegations had been made
24 against him and that I wanted him immediately to enter
25 into a full residential treatment program for him apart
Page 230
1 from Guest House. It was going to be a different program.
2 And I immediately made contact with the residential center
3 in Toronto, Canada, called Southdown, and asked him to go
4 there for that treatment.
5 Q. Did he go?
6 A. He went -- they first invited him to come up for
7 the evaluation, which he did. He went up there for the
8 full-week evaluation. They said they could not take him
9 for the full program until about two weeks later, after
10 Christmas.
11 And so he returned for Christmas and then went back
12 up again for the program. He remained in the program for
13 two to three weeks, as I recall, and then called me and
14 said that he felt that he was out of place. He wouldn't
15 mind going to another program, but did not feel at home in
16 that program.
17 My response to him was that if he didn't continue in
18 that program, he would have no further assignment in the
19 Archdiocese. He chose to return home and to live with his
20 father. I did not see him after that.
21 Q. When you confronted him with these allegations,
22 did he admit them or deny them?
23 A. I don't recall a direct admission, if he said,
24 "Yes, I'm guilty of that." I don't recall him saying
25 that. But his agreement to go to Southdown was what I was
Page 231
1 looking for at the time, too. And he said, "Yes, I will
2 go, and I will enter the program and do whatever you ask
3 of me." I assume that may have been an admission of the
4 facts.
5 Q. Well, would you have sent him to Southdown to
6 the treatment program if there was doubt in your mind as
7 to the validity of the allegations?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you believed they were true?
10 A. I believed that they were true. And the fact
11 that he did not refuse to go led me to believe that there
12 was truth to some of those allegations that were made.
13 Q. Did you or any member of your staff ever talk to
14 the boys who alleged that they had been molested by him in
15 Los Lunas?
16 A. I did not, and I presume that Father did not
17 because these boys must have been in prison, is what I
18 recall, in CaliforniA. I believe that Father must have
19 spoken directly with the parents.
20 Q. Father Wolf, you're talking about?
21 A. Father Wolf, I'm sorry, yes.
22 Q. When Father Esquivel left his Los Lunas parish
23 assignment, what, if anything, did you tell the people at
24 the Los Lunas parish about the reason for his departure?
25 A. That he was -- that he had departed from the
Page 232
1 parish for treatment.
2 Q. Of --
3 A. No specific reason was given. It is not the
4 habit of our Church to make public the weakness of any
5 individual and say that someone is going away for
6 alcoholism or going away for this or going away for that.
7 He was going away for treatment at a center and asked for
8 prayers for his success, his well-being.
9 Q. Did you feel any canonical or moral
10 responsibility to advise the parishioners at his Los Lunas
11 parish that you felt he had been a child molester?
12 A. My main concern with any allegation that is
13 brought to me that if a priest is being accused of
14 misconduct is to confront that priest and to remove him
15 from the situation immediately. And I was able to do that
16 in this case successfully and did not feel an obligation,
17 then, to explain to the people in general the reasons for
18 his departure.
19 Q. Weren't you concerned, Archbishop, that there
20 could be other victims?
21 A. There is concern. Again, as I have mentioned,
22 parishes have a way of speaking to another and of letting
23 any type of abuse be known. It wasn't as though they were
24 going to keep it secret. His departure, I am sure, caused
25 a lot of talk among the parishioners themselves, and it is
Page 233
1 simply not our tradition to make obvious statements to
2 people about an individual, because of the situation
3 within the parish itself. Parishioners begin to become
4 suspicious of one another. It can become a divisive
5 issue. They begin to wonder, "Well, who caused this, and
6 what's involved?" So I have not made it a practice to
7 announce to parishioners the reason for any transfer of
8 any priest.
9 Q. Did you not feel that in your position as the
10 then leader of the Catholic Church in New Mexico, you had
11 some sort of responsibility to see if this man had hurt
12 any other children and to try to help them?
13 A. I was leaving that situation up to Father Wolf
14 to investigate the situation with more -- more discreetly,
15 so as not to cause a division within the parish, but to be
16 able to inquire from this lady and any others that wished
17 to talk whether or not they wanted to come see us.
18 I'd also like to add for the record that this
19 occurred at -- after we had already established an 800
20 number, which was publicly made known throughout the
21 media, throughout New Mexico, that anyone who had any
22 complaint or allegation against a priest could call that
23 number and make their report. So it was an open
24 invitation.
25 If I recall correctly, I had also established an
Page 234
1 independent commission for the very purpose of allowing
2 people to contact them anonymously, if they so chose to
3 share their concern with that commission and bring it to
4 our attention.
5 Q. By not warning the parish about what had
6 happened and seeking out any other victims, if there were
7 any, weren't you putting the unity of the parish and the
8 reputation of the Church over the rights of those who may
9 have been sexually abused by this man?
10 MR. KONRAD: Object to the form of the
11 question. I think he testified Father Wolf was instructed
12 to investigate and find other victims.
13 A. Yes -- it's not as though nothing were done. It
14 was not a hide situation. That was followed up by Father
15 Wolf with the family and with any other contacts that she
16 would offer to them to be able to investigate if there
17 were other possible victims in the parish.
18 Q. But is it your position, sir, that it should not
19 have been announced from the pulpit that, "We have removed
20 this man from your midst because we believe he's a child
21 molester"?
22 A. That's right, sir, and I will explain briefly.
23 In our own moral theology, about which we spoke at length
24 yesterday, calumny is considered a sin. That's detraction
25 of a person, spreading false rumors about an individual.
Page 235
1 But likewise, detraction from a person is also respected,
2 that gossip is oftentimes turned and twisted so that a
3 person's reputation is totally destroyed. But not only
4 the gossip against a perpetrator, but gossip against
5 people, against other children. It becomes an opportunity
6 to offend one another when that need not happen.
7 So the Church has not taken the position -- in fact,
8 has cautioned that any investigation that is done should
9 be done discreetly so as to preserve the rights of
10 individuals and their own anonymity and their own
11 preference to come forward as they choose.
12 Q. Are you saying, sir, that calumny is a bigger
13 sin than raping a child?
14 A. No, sir, I'm not saying that at all.
15 MR. PASTERNACK: Why don't we break for
16 lunch.
17 MR. GOFFE: The time is 12:06. We will go
18 off the record.
19 [The noon recess was taken.]
20 MR. GOFFE: The time is 1:16, as indicated
21 on the screen. We are back on the record.
22 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, when Father
23 Esquivel was transferred from work in the chancery to work
24 at a parish, wherever it was, were the people of that
25 parish, to the best of your knowledge, advised that he had
Page 236
1 in the past fathered a child and had been treated for
2 substance abuse?
3 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
4 Q. And why would they not have been notified of
5 that?
6 A. Because I think there's something very private
7 between a child that has been fathered -- the mother
8 deserves that her name not be known publicly. The priest
9 who has been involved in that incident deserves to be
10 given -- if he deserves an appointment, he deserves to be
11 given that opportunity. I did not consider him to be a
12 threat to anyone else. I thought that he had gone through
13 a fine program of rehabilitation. I felt it was
14 professional in scope; its reputation was fine; and the
15 man, in fact, would do a credible job. He had worked with
16 us in the office credibly and not shown any sign of his
17 former illness, and so I felt that the man could be
18 assigned to a parish without any worry. It was never our
19 practice to make such announcements, as I have already
20 mentioned to you, and so nothing was made in his regard
21 either.
22 Q. Do you recall whether Father Esquivel had ever
23 been cleared for parish work by any professional, such as
24 a psychologist or psychiatrist?
25 A. The psychologist-psychiatrists at Guest House
Page 237
1 had worked with him. Knowing that he would be placed back
2 at parish work was certainly an option for him, I should
3 say, in his future because most priests ordained in any
4 diocese are ordained for parochial work.
5 Q. And do you have a specific recollection of
6 actually receiving such clearance from the Guest House
7 professionals?
8 A. The clearance that the Guest House gave me was
9 that this man, they felt, had been rehabilitated in
10 reference to his alcoholism and that if he continued to
11 attend AA for support groups and to -- they asked him to
12 join their one week of intensive rehabilitation every
13 year. This is common for all of their guests who have
14 gone through the program. They felt that he would
15 continue to abstain from alcohol completely.
16 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, did he attend
17 AA meetings consistently after he left Guest House?
18 A. Yes. We monitored that when he was with us in
19 our office. He was attending AA meetings. And I also
20 asked him to attend the annual gathering sponsored by
21 Guest House. One was held in San Diego, and one was held
22 at Guest House itself.
23 Q. After he left the chancery and went into parish
24 work, did you continue to monitor whether he was attend
25 attending AA?
Page 238
1 A. I would ask him from time to time. I was not
2 seeing him as frequently as I had before. I had no reason
3 to believe that he was not.
4 Q. Well, did he assure you that he was attending
5 AA?
6 A. Whenever I would ask him, he would say he was.
7 Q. And was there any sort of after-care program
8 locally beyond that that you insisted he involve himself
9 in?
10 A. No. The after-care program was provided, as I
11 say, by Guest House, and that was an annual one-week
12 gathering, and they depended upon the support of AA as
13 being an after-care program locally.
14 Q. Did you direct anyone on your staff to supervise
15 Father Esquivel after he was reassigned to parish work?
16 A. I don't recall having done that.
17 Q. Do you know where Father Esquivel came from
18 originally?
19 A. Father Esquivel is a native of New Mexico.
20 Q. And did he -- where did he attend seminary, if
21 you know?
22 A. I know he attended some years as a college
23 student at the Immaculate Heart of Mary seminary in
24 Santa Fe and then went for six years for his theology, but
25 I don't recall offhand where that was taken.
Page 239
1 Q. Was he incardinated and ordained to the Santa Fe
2 Archidocese?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. Has anyone ever told you or have you ever heard
5 that Father Esquivel also had problems with cocaine and
6 marijuana?
7 A. I did not hear of that until recent allegations
8 came, as I have mentioned earlier this morning, that he
9 had had -- at least the allegations were that he was
10 using -- I think they used marijuana, I think is what they
11 had stated. I don't recall them mentioning cocaine.
12 Q. Had any allegations or information ever been
13 presented to you that he was using parish children in the
14 production of pornography?
15 A. No, not at all.
16 Q. Did Father Esquivel ever tell you that he was
17 affiliated with the Mafia?
18 A. Oh, no.
19 Q. Did you ever hear any information about thefts,
20 embezzlement, by Father Esquivel from the parish in Los
21 Lunas?
22 A. No.
23 Q. There was a man who came here, Archbishop, after
24 leaving the priesthood named Lane Fontenot. Did you ever --
25 A. Again, please?
Page 240
1 Q. Lane Fontenot. Did you ever learn anything
2 about Lane Fontenot?
3 A. I've never heard that name until right now.
4 Q. When we were talking yesterday, I asked you
5 about Dennis Fountain, and you indicated a recollection
6 that there were some allegations that you recalled.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall whether he was indicted or
9 criminally charged?
10 A. I believe that the District Attorney in Santa Fe
11 did -- I don't recall whether it was an indictment or a
12 criminal charge. I believe there was a criminal charge
13 against him. I don't recall the technicalities, but I
14 know that the District Attorney was the one who accepted
15 the case from the beginning, so he would have done
16 whatever the law requires him to do. I don't know how far
17 that went. But the case was then investigated, and I
18 don't believe that a formal trial was ever concluded in
19 that case, if my memory serves me right.
20 Q. He was a Franciscan, wasn't he?
21 A. He was a Franciscan priest, right.
22 Q. Does that mean that he was not directly under
23 your authority while you were Archbishop?
24 A. That is right. As a Franciscan, his own life
25 and his personal living -- all he has to answer for that
Page 241
1 to his religious superior. If he were appointed by me as
2 a priest in the archidocese, then he would be answerable
3 to me for his ministry.
4 Q. Does that mean that when he was charged, in
5 whatever fashion it was, with a crime, you did not have
6 any authority to remove him?
7 A. No. He had been assigned to the position by his
8 own superior, and I believe the superior removed him
9 immediately.
10 Q. Do you know if he was reassigned to parish work
11 after the criminal case?
12 A. After the criminal case was dropped, I know that
13 he was kept by his religious community without any type of
14 parochial assignment. I don't recall how long that was.
15 I believe it may have been for two or three years. I'm
16 just hazy in my recollection of even when that occurred.
17 But then ultimately they requested an assignment. I
18 believe they were trying to get an assignment for him in
19 the Gallup diocese.
20 Q. Were you ever asked to make any recommendations
21 or express an opinion on his service?
22 A. Not so much a recommendation because I really
23 did not know the man. He had served as a chaplain, and I
24 did not know him personally. So I could not give a
25 recommendation.
Page 242
1 Q. What did you give, if anything?
2 A. Just -- if they asked for my own comments, "What
3 do you think about Father," my comments would have been,
4 "Well, it seems to me that he was a dedicated priest. I
5 can't recommend him personally because I don't know him
6 personally. But he seemed to have served very well in his
7 previous assignments with the Franciscans, and since no
8 judgment had been rendered against him, I certainly could
9 not speak negatively about him."
10 Q. Yesterday I asked you about Anthony Gallegos,
11 and you stated that he had left the archidocese and went
12 to California shortly after he was ordained?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you ever recall him serving as a parish
15 priest in Socorro, indeed in the parish that you grew up
16 in as a child?
17 A. No, I don't remember that. Socorro has always
18 had priests there since 1620. And in recent years, since
19 I have been ordained, many have been changed, transferred
20 to other parishes, and other priests there. So I don't
21 remember who all have served there, actually.
22 Q. All right. You had no personal acquaintance
23 with him, I take it?
24 A. No. No, I did not.
25 Q. Do you know the circumstances of his death?
Page 243
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what were the circumstances of his death?
3 A. I was told that he died of AIDS.
4 Q. His death was noted in the 1992 Catholic
5 directory for this archidocese, and I'd like to explore
6 what his status was with this archidocese.
7 A. He had no status with us at all. That was noted
8 simply for informational purposes, because we do get calls
9 about priests who have served here, others who have died,
10 and unless they are noted in there, you continue to have
11 to respond. He -- once he had left and had been gone with
12 no contact to us since whatever year it was, '69 or '70,
13 he was no longer a priest of the archidocese. He was no
14 longer actually a priest in good standing anywhere.
15 Q. Was he ever excardinated by the Santa Fe
16 Archidocese?
17 A. It was not a formal excardination. He quit the
18 priesthood, and that itself is an excardination. In other
19 words, he ceases to be a priest.
20 Q. Do you know if he signified his decision to quit
21 by any writing of any type?
22 A. Not that I know of, no writing.
23 Q. Did you ever formally suspend, revoke or
24 terminate his priestly faculties?
25 A. We withdrew his name totally from the Catholic
Page 244
1 directory, thus indicating that he was no longer a priest
2 of the archidocese.
3 Q. Do you recall approximately when you did that?
4 A. I think we waited for -- well, I don't know.
5 When I came into my own position as the Archbishop, I
6 think his name was still listed, and that had been 14
7 years. And I instructed the chancellor that whenever he
8 prepared the Catholic directory that his name should be
9 deleted from our list, because we'd had no contact with
10 him.
11 Q. Do you know why he left the Santa Fe
12 Archidocese?
13 A. I have no ideA. That occurred when Archbishop
14 Davis was still here. I had never known the man, and I
15 had no occasion to inquire about him.
16 Q. Is Father Galli a person that you consider a
17 friend, as well as a brother priest?
18 A. I consider him a very good priest, a man that I
19 have trusted and could depend on during the years of my
20 own service as the Archbishop. I had not known him prior
21 to being named the Archbishop. I had met his brother. He
22 had another brother who was also a priest in this
23 archidocese. He has since died. I had met his older
24 brother, or his brother Robert. Father Clarence I had not
25 met until I was ordained as the Archbishop, and then I got
Page 245
1 to know him simply as the Archbishop.
2 He served very faithfully on several committees for
3 me, and I felt he was an excellent pastor. But we never
4 became friends. We never spent any time other than
5 meetings together, business.
9 Q. Are you familiar with a deacon of the
10 archidocese named ?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What is the nature of your acquaintance with Mr.
13 ?
14 A. I know him as a permanent deacon for the
15 Archidocese of Santa Fe. He was one of many who were
16 ordained as permanent deacons. These are men who are
17 married, most of them are married, and they go through a
18 program of preparation for the deaconate, are ordained,
19 and then they serve in whatever capacity we invite them to
20 serve. Normally they assist part-time, perhaps on
21 weekends, or they assist their pastor. They continue to
22 work at their own jobs providing for their families, but
23 they are able to render some assistance in their parish
24 church. In the instance of , I understand
25 that he was a schoolteacher.
Page 246
1 Q. Do you know whether was ever
2 charged with or convicted of any sex crimes?
3 A. I learned that was charged with a
4 sexual molestation, I guess is the word, of a school child
5 where he was employed, at the school that he was employed.
6 I believe, but I am not certain, that his employment was
7 in .
8 Q. Were you still Archbishop when you learned of
9 this alleged molestation of the child?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you take any action to revoke or suspend
12 Deacon faculties with the Church?
13 A. Yes, I did. The faculties were suspended
14 immediately, and they have not been given back to him.
15 Q. Did you take any action to alert the
16 parishioners at the parish for which he served as deacon
17 of what he had done?
18 A. It was public knowledge. It had appeared in the
19 newspaper and on the news. So no public announcement was
20 made.
Page 247
6 Q. Excuse me just a second. Okay, I'd like to ask
7 you some questions about Father Sabine Griego.
8 A. All right.
9 Q. Yesterday I had asked you, Page 71, line 24, I
10 said, "And Sabine Griego, you knew about those allegations
11 long before the lawsuits started being filed, didn't you?"
12 And your answer was, "No, not before this took place,
13 no."
14 Would it be correct to say that before August of '91,
15 you had not heard any allegations of sexual impropriety by
16 Father Griego?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Was Father Griego raised in New Mexico, to the
19 best of your knowledge?
20 A. I understand that he was raised in northern New
21 Mexico.
22 Q. And was he incardinated and ordained a priest of
23 the Santa Fe Archidocese?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is he your contemporary or a bit younger?
Page 248
1 A. A bit younger.
2 Q. What was the nature of your first acquaintance
3 with him, if you recall?
4 A. I would regard our really first acquaintance
5 occurring when he was assigned to a position in Las Vegas,
6 New Mexico, and I was assigned in Roy and Mosquero, which
7 is in the northeast. He was a pastor, I believe, or lived
8 in a parish, one of the two parishes in Las Vegas, at that
9 time; and since that was one of the closest areas that I
10 could visit, from time to time I would visit either
11 Monsignor Salas in the Immaculate Conception parish or
12 Father Griego and Father Burke in the other parish. And I
13 believe that's where my acquaintance with him began.
14 Q. Now, you have indicated that you did not start
15 hearing any allegations about sexual impropriety against
16 him until after August of '91. Do you recall who first
17 brought to your attention such allegations?
18 A. It was a family, the Price family. I believe
19 the first name is Jess, Jess Price. He and his wife and
20 their daughter, I believe, asked to see us, and so I
21 arranged a meeting with them. I believe present at that
22 meeting, if I recall correctly, was my chancellor, Father
23 Richard Olona, and also the archdiocesan attorney, Mr.
24 Chuck Reynolds. That took place at the chancery office.
25 Q. Do you recall approximately when that would have
Page 249
1 been?
2 A. I feel that it took place in August or September
3 of 1991. If you give me a moment to just calculate, I can
4 make certain it's that date.
5 Yes, it would have been more than likely September of
6 1991.
7 Q. And what makes you believe that?
8 A. It makes -- I believe it because, number one, I
9 asked Father Griego, as a result of that meeting with them
10 in which an allegation was stated to me, I asked Father
11 Griego, then, to resign his parish -- the allegation was
12 against him -- and to then go to Southdown -- excuse me --
13 in Toronto for their full program, which he did. And the
14 program terminated in the -- for him in like March or
15 April of 1992. That is why I can trace it back to 1991.
16 The date of September is in my mind because they
17 indicated that their daughter was attending the University
18 at that time.
19 Q. Prior to the actual meeting with the Prices, had
20 they called you or written to you, as best you recall, to
21 complain about Father Griego?
22 A. I believe they made contact verbally with my
23 chancellor, then Father Olona, who informed me of this, I
24 believe that was the method of communication, and asked if
25 they could meet with us, and he set up the meeting.
Page 250
1 Q. So you recall no written allegations?
2 A. No, no. It was just a request by them to meet
3 with us.
4 [Exhibit 7 was marked for identification.]
5 Q. Exhibit 7 is a letter given to us by Mrs. Price
6 dated August 8, 1991, pertaining to Sabine Griego and
7 Arthur Perrault. I'd like to ask you to look at that and
8 tell me if this refreshes your recollection or if you've
9 ever seen this letter before.
10 The question was if you recall having received and
11 read this letter.
12 A. No, I do not recall receiving that letter. It's
13 very clear. The letter is very strongly written, but I
14 don't recall receiving that, and I can't explain why.
15 Q. One of my concerns about this is that in
16 addition to expressing complaints of sexual molestation of
17 some of their 14 children by Sabine Griego, Mrs. Price
18 also expresses concern about similar molestation by Arthur
19 Perrault, as I've seen.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. This letter was not in the personnel file of
22 Arthur Perrault that was produced to us. Do you have any
23 reason why that would not have occurred?
24 A. I have no reason why, nor do I recall having
25 received that letter.
Page 251
1 Q. Is the Price family a rather prominent family in
2 the Catholic community?
3 A. Not that I know of. Maybe in their own parish,
4 it's possible. But I had not met them prior to the time
5 that they came to the office.
6 Q. Was Mr. Price on the independent commission you
7 appointed?
8 A. No. No, he was not.
9 Q. The letter says, on the second page, "We
10 understand that this letter is not the first time that the
11 Archidocese has been informed of these men's deviant,
12 shameful and life-damaging activities. We've been told
13 that, at least in Perrault's case, information has been
14 presented to civic officials, which was then passed on to
15 the Archidocese for action. Nothing happened."
16 Is that true, that there had been prior -- or reports
17 prior to 1991 on Arthur Perrault?
18 A. I never received anything from any civic
19 officials to which she refers. If, in fact, they had
20 been, they certainly were free to contact us.
21 Q. At the meeting that you had with the Price
22 family that I believe you indicated was the month after
23 the date of this letter, did they tell you which of their
24 children had been molested by Perrault and Griego?
25 A. The best I recall the meeting, the focus of the
Page 252
1 meeting was upon their daughter, who was present for the
2 meeting. The indication was that she had been molested by
3 Father Sabine Griego, and they were asking of us, the
4 archidocese, two things: One was financial assistance for
5 their daughter to be able to have thorough counseling.
6 They indicated she was attending the University at the
7 time. We agreed to care for any counseling that she would
8 choose and from whatever therapist that she would care to
9 go to.
10 And the second request was that Father Sabine Griego
11 would be given the proper treatment, therapeutic
12 treatment, they felt necessary for his own life, and we
13 promised that. And I immediately confronted Father and
14 asked for his resignation from the parish and then
15 prepared for him to enter into treatment at Southdown.
16 Q. Okay. This letter says the son who Perrault and
17 Griego criminally abused was seriously affected in several
18 very negative ways, and it describes them. Is it your
19 testimony, sir, that at the meeting you do not recall them
20 discussing abuse of a son but rather a daughter?
21 A. The daughter was the focus of the meeting
22 because that was what they were asking us to take action
23 for.
24 Q. Was the son discussed at all?
25 A. If his name was mentioned, it was not mentioned
Page 253
1 as their main focus, because it's not in my mind at all,
2 nor did they ask any action on behalf of their son.
3 Q. I understand that his name may not have been
4 mentioned, but did they discuss at all that one of their
5 sons had been molested by Perrault and Griego?
6 A. I don't recall that discussion taking place.
7 Q. Would it be typical that your chancellor would
8 take notes at meetings like this?
9 A. If I recall correctly, I believe the attorney
10 was taking notes for the occasion, for the meeting that
11 was occurring. Whether Father Olona took notes, I am not
12 certain. I would have to ask him.
13 Q. When you removed Sabine -- and I take it you
14 removed him from his parish assignment at Queen of Heaven?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you undertake any action to find out what
17 other victims he may have had at Queen of Heaven or
18 elsewhere?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. In fact, did you even ask him?
21 A. No. I confronted him with the issue at hand,
22 and he admitted his guilt and was grateful for the
23 opportunity to go into therapy. But I did not talk about
24 other possible victims.
25 Q. If you know, what explanation was given to the
Page 254
1 people of Queen of Heaven for his departure?
2 A. I don't recall if there was an explanation given
3 at all, Mr. Pasternack. I think that Father announced his
4 own termination, that he had chosen to resign, and thanked
5 them for his, I believe, 10 years of service there and
6 their cooperation. But I don't recall any explanation
7 being given.
8 Q. Since Father Griego had admitted to you abusing
9 a child or children, would it have still been calumny to
10 inform the parish that he was a confessed child molester?
11 A. The incident referred to by this family, the
12 Price family, went back many years. It was not something --
13 a recent occurrence. To mention this publicly to the
14 parish, again, would be in a sense calumnizing the parish,
15 involving them, wondering whether this person or that
16 person or the other person, and gossip to spread. And I
17 think that harm is done to one another rather than good.
18 The man had not -- nothing had come forth from the
19 parish at all regarding this priest for 10 years of
20 service. I had no reason to believe that he had in any
21 way victimized anybody during those 10 years in that
22 parish, and this allegation that these folks brought to my
23 attention went back to a situation that was many years
24 prior.
25 Q. Approximately how many years prior to August of
Page 255
1 '91; do you recall?
2 A. What I gathered from the conversation with them,
3 they were talking about the Search program in the
4 archidocese, which had taken place in the archidocese, oh,
5 back in the '70s, late '70s. And I thought that that is
6 what they were speaking about, as far as the abuse
7 occurring.
8 Q. Did it occur to you that someone who abuses one
9 child may abuse others?
10 A. That's always a possibility. But once again, I
11 would simply reiterate that no statement, no allegation
12 had come to me from anyone in that parish in those 10
13 years. The people living in Albuquerque are
14 sophisticated. They certainly would not hesitate to call
15 or to write if they felt something had occurred which was
16 improper.
17 Q. And did you feel that, as Archbishop, you had
18 neither the canonical nor the moral duty to the Catholic
19 faithful to inquire of Father Griego whether anything else
20 had happened?
21 A. This incident had occurred. My focus was to
22 remove this priest, put him into the therapy, therapy for
23 his own sake, and also for the peace of mind of the Price
24 family, who had been offended, and I felt that I was
25 filling the requests that they had placed before me.
Page 256
1 Q. My question was, did you feel a moral or
2 canonical responsibility on behalf of the Catholic people
3 to ask Father Griego whether he had done this to anyone
4 else?
5 A. It simply did not occur to me.
6 Q. Did it occur to you that perhaps Father Griego,
7 like you, did not want to discuss his sexual activities
8 because of his feelings of shame and guilt and hypocrisy?
9 A. I was not judging him -- what his feelings may
10 or may not have been. My concern was to place him in the
11 hands of professionals where whatever had occurred in his
12 life could be addressed and addressed properly.
13 Q. What I'm asking, Archbishop, is, you knew -- you
14 knew well that a priest who sexually offends tends to hide
15 that. And with that knowledge, why did you not seek to
16 draw out of him information that could help the people?
17 A. I suppose, Mr. Pasternack, it's because I don't
18 have a suspicious nature. I am not one who is an
19 investigator of that nature. I'm not an investigator by
20 nature. I know that is part and parcel of your office and
21 of many other people, but I don't do that simply by
22 nature.
23 Q. You had known Sabine Griego when he was at Our
24 Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas?
25 A. Yes.
Page 257
1 Q. Had you ever visited him there?
2 A. I visited there normally to have lunch with
3 whoever was there, as I was passing through, driving from
4 Mosquero to Albuquerque.
5 Q. Well, wasn't he still at Our Lady of Sorrows by
6 the time you became Archbishop?
7 A. Yes, he was. His work was also twofold,
8 actually. While he was at Our Lady of Sorrows, he was in
9 residence first not as the parish priest but as a
10 counselor/chaplain for the New Mexico State Hospital.
11 That was his principal assignment. And then later, after
12 that, he was appointed as pastor of Our Lady of Sorrows.
13 Q. When you visited Father Griego at Our Lady of
14 Sorrows, did you ever spend the night?
15 A. Yes, I had occasion to spend the night there a
16 couple of times.
17 Q. And did you ever see Father Griego with young
18 boys spending the night?
19 A. No, never was that -- in fact, it was always
20 adult men who were present, men of the parish or parish
21 councils that were there.
22 Q. In 1991, when the Prices informed you and Father
23 Griego confessed that he had been a child molester in the
24 late '70s, did it snap in your mind that you had appointed
25 him to investigate Father Donnollan, also in the late
Page 258
1 '70s, and that maybe that investigation would have been
2 tainted by his own self-confessed behavior?
3 A. No, sir, it did not enter my mind. That just
4 did not enter my mind. That enters our minds now because
5 we're dealing with these issues, but that was not in my
6 mind when I addressed him for his therapy.
7 Q. Did you ever appoint Father Griego to
8 investigate the allegations against Father Labresch?
9 A. I don't believe he was on the commission. I
10 don't recall whether he was, but I don't know why I would
11 have -- no, normally when I had a diocesan priest who
12 needed to be investigated, I would ask religious priests
13 to belong to the investigating team.
14 Q. Members of religious orders?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. PASTERNACK: Excuse me.
18 [A discussion was held off the record.]
19 Q. Do you know the reason why Sabine Griego was
20 moved from Our Lady of Sorrows to Queen of Heaven?
21 A. Well, I would -- I propose that I discussed this
22 with our personnel board. The parish in Queen of Heaven
23 was going to be in need of a new pastor. The former
24 pastor, Father Paul Baca, had established a satellite
25 parish off of Queen of Heaven, a new parish, and had asked
Page 259
1 to be made the pastor of that new parish. We were going
2 to need, then, a pastor for Queen of Heaven parish.
3 Since it was a large parish, a bilingual parish, we
4 sought out an individual who had that type of parochial
5 experience and we felt would qualify for that. I don't
6 recall the procedure, who else may have been considered as
7 a possible candidate, but ultimately it was voted that
8 Father Sabine Griego would be offered that position.
9 Q. Wasn't one of the reasons why he was removed at
10 Our Lady of Sorrows allegations that he was sexually
11 molesting children there?
12 A. No, that was not a reason for removing him from
13 there. He was transferred and not removed. There's a
14 difference.
15 Q. When the Prices confronted you with these
16 allegations and Father Griego admitted them, you did not
17 appoint any investigating committee, I take it; is that
18 right?
19 A. No, I did not because the man admitted his
20 guilt, and so we did not need to have an investigation.
21 Q. Had you appointed an investigating committee to
22 look into the allegations of Father , against
23 Father ?
24 A. Yes, because he had denied the allegations.
25 Q. Did you ever take trips with Father Griego?
Page 260
1 A. I did not take a trip with Father Griego, but I
2 met a group of priests on one occasion for one day in
3 Mexico. They had gone down for a fishing trip, and I had
4 to go to an orphanage that was in that same direction. So
5 I was able to spend one day with them, because I enjoy
6 fishing, and then went on to the orphanage. But I did not
7 go on the entire trip with them.
8 Q. And you say he was with priests?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were there any boys on this fishing trip?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You're acquainted with Father Fitzgerald who
13 lived in the Queen of Heaven rectory, I'm sure. By the
14 way, is he still alive; do you know?
15 A. I believe he is. I have not seen him now in a
16 year, but I think he's going to live forever. He's a
17 grand gentleman.
18 Q. Did he ever tell you that in his opinion or by
19 his observation, Father Griego was sexually molesting
20 children at Queen of Heaven?
21 A. No, he did not tell me that Father Griego was
22 ever sexually molesting children.
23 Q. Did he tell you anything that reflected poorly
24 on Father Griego's character?
25 A. Not reflecting on his character so much perhaps
Page 261
1 as on Father Fitzgerald's own privacy. Father Fitzgerald
2 would say that Father Griego had a policy where so many of
3 the parishioners felt free to come into the rectory
4 holding of their meetings, having lunch with the others,
5 and so he felt that their privacy was not as well as it
6 should have been.
7 Q. Putting aside the issue of child molestation for
8 a moment, had it ever come to your attention -- had any
9 allegations ever come to your attention that Sabine Griego
10 was sexually active as a homosexual?
11 A. No, there was no allegations about
12 homosexuality, that he was sexually active.
13 Q. Did Father Griego ever tell you about any trips
14 he had taken to Mazatlan, Acapulco, or any other
15 destinations, with boys?
16 A. No, I don't recall him mentioning any trips he
17 had taken. As I mentioned yesterday, all of the priests
18 have a right to vacation time, and they decide on their
19 own timing, as long as they have a substitute to replace
20 them in their parish for whatever number of days they'll
21 be gone. They're entitled to make that time their own.
22 Q. Are you saying that he never told you about
23 taking boys on trips?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Did you ever take any trips to Las Vegas with
Page 262
1 Sabine?
2 A. One trip, yes. There were four of us. The
3 other men had -- I was on my way to a meeting in -- I
4 believe it was Phoenix or Los Angeles -- no, Salt Lake
5 City. I had to go to Salt Lake City, and they asked me if
6 I would join them there, even if it were just for a day,
7 because they felt I needed a break.
8 And so I arranged my ticket to stop off in Las Vegas,
9 and we had dinner together that night, and the next day I
10 continued my trip to Salt Lake City.
11 Q. Do you recall where you stayed?
12 A. I think it was a Holiday Inn.
13 Q. Do you recall seeing Sabine with any boys on
14 that trip?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Are you aware that Sabine has now been sued by
17 one of the Price family?
18 A. I'm not aware of the circumstances of the suit,
19 but I was told that one of the boys, I believe it is, has
20 gone ahead and, I guess, decided to have a suit against
21 him. I don't even know who his attorney is for that.
22 Q. After you -- well, who did you receive that
23 information from, if it was anyone other than your
24 attorney?
25 A. I think -- no, it was just my attorney.
Page 263
1 Q. All right. After you received that information --
2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Move to strike that last
3 answer.
4 Q. After you received that information, did you
5 place any calls to either Sabine Griego, Archbishop
6 Sheehan or Father Wolf about the allegations?
7 A. No, I have not spoken with anyone.
8 Q. Did Father Luis Jaramillo ever report to you
9 that Sabine was sexually molesting children while at Queen
10 of Heaven?
11 A. I do not recall any report from Father
12 Jaramillo.
13 Q. Did Father Frank Prieto ever complain to you
14 about Sabine molesting children at Queen of Heaven?
15 A. Not to the best of my recollection, no.
16 Q. Did information ever reach you that Sabine had
17 one or more young boys living with him in the rectory at
18 Queen of Heaven?
19 A. Information -- yes, information was there. I
20 had met one of these men. They were -- one of the -- the
21 man that I met was a godson of Father Griego and was
22 completing his medical studies, completing his medical
23 studies at the University of New Mexico. And I asked
24 Father Griego who he was, and he informed me of this.
25 And I said, "Well, where is he staying?"
Page 264
1 He said, "Well, I've allowed him to stay in this
2 guest room off in the side while he completes his
3 studies." And that is the information that I received
4 from him.
5 Q. Do you recall the name of that young man?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. When you say, "men," how old would you say that
8 this young man was?
9 A. He must have been 23, 24, mid 20s.
10 Q. How long ago was this?
11 A. Well, within the last two years.
12 Q. Did that same young man ever show up at the
13 Archbishop's residence while you were living there and
14 Sabine was living with you?
15 A. No, sir. I had given Father Griego orders that
16 no one was to visit him except his family.
17 Q. And is this the only young man that you were
18 aware of as having lived with Sabine in the rectory at
19 Queen of Heaven?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object to the
22 characterization that he lived with Sabine Griego. It
23 misstates the testimony. The testimony was that he was
24 staying in the guest room.
25 Q. After Sabine Griego returned from Southdown, was
Page 265
1 he given a parish assignment?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Was he made chaplain at St. Joseph Hospital?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. This was again part of the recommendation of the
7 therapeutic team at Southdown, that they felt he had spent
8 so many years as a pastor, but that he also had all of the
9 qualifications for chaplaincy. He had been certified on a
10 national level as a chaplain, and we inquired from St.
11 Joseph Hospital whether, in fact, a chaplain was
12 necessary, and they were very anxious to employ him for
13 that position. They were aware that he had completed his
14 stay in Southdown.
15 Q. Would it be correct to say that the majority of
16 priests in chaplain service in the Archidocese of Santa Fe
17 have a history of being accused to have been child
18 molesters?
19 A. No, I don't think you can make that statement
20 accurately, because we choose people for chaplaincies who
21 are able to be certified for that position. They have to
22 go through special CPE training and to be certified before
23 they can assume those positions.
24 We have a chaplain at the State Penitentiary in
25 Santa Fe who has never had any allegations against him,
Page 266
1 and he's done an excellent job. Monsignor Bernard Burns,
2 who is now retired, served as a chaplain to rest homes and
3 hospitals for many years, outstanding. Never any
4 allegations against him. So that would not be a true
5 statement.
6 Q. Well, let's take 1992 as an example. Ed
7 Donnollan was at Lovelace, right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Sabine Griego was at St. Joseph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. was at Lovelace?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All three had allegations of sexual abuse?
14 A. It's true. In that particular year in which
15 you're referring to, it is true that there were three of
16 the men were, in fact -- at least Father and
17 Father Sabine Griego. In the case of -- who was the other
18 one you mentioned?
19 Q. Donnollan.
20 A. Father Ed Donnollan, I placed him there
21 principally because of his anger in parish situations.
22 He's a man who seems to do very well in ministry
23 one-on-one with people, but seems to be highly irascible
24 in groups. And I felt that his best service would be as a
25 chaplain.
Page 267
1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: One second, Mr.
2 Pasternack.
3 [The witness conferred with his attorney.]
5 MR. PASTERNACK: You need to take a break?
6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No, we were talking
7 about that, Mr. Pasternack.
8 Q. Is Immaculate Conception Church in Downtown
9 Albuquerque run by the Jesuits?
10 A. Yes, sir, it is.
11 Q. Do you recall being contacted by any member of
12 the Jesuits in approximately 1980 or '81 with an
13 allegation that Sabine Griego had molested the child of a
14 Queen of Heaven parishioner?
15 A. No, sir, I have no recollection of that.
16 Q. Do you recall ever being contacted in about 1980
17 or '81 by a woman named who complained to
18 you that her son had been molested by Sabine Griego?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Do you know a woman named ?
21 A. ?
22 Q. .
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you recall getting a call from a woman named
25 , mother of , who complained to
Page 268
1 you that Sabine Griego had gotten her son addicted to
2 drugs?
3 A. No, sir, not at all.
4 Q. I'm sure that on occasion when you were
5 Archbishop, you visited Queen of Heaven, as you do many of
6 your parishes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During any of those trips did any parishioners
9 attempt to speak with you about allegations that Sabine
10 Griego was molesting their children?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Do you recall a former nun by the name of Lucy,
13 who married Linus Rund or Runde?
14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Do we have a last name
15 for Sister Lucy?
16 MR. PASTERNACK: Not hers, no.
17 A. I don't recall a Sister Lucy.
18 Q. Do you know Father Anthony Trujillo, at Holy
19 Family?
20 A. Oh, a Franciscan, yes, I know who that would be,
21 then.
22 Q. Did Father Anthony Trujillo ever complain to you
23 that Sabine Griego had sexually molested boys?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Did you ever tell any parishioners at Queen of
Page 269
1 Heaven that Griego was going to California on sabbatical
2 when, in fact, you had directed him to Southdown for
3 treatment?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Did you ever tell any parishioners at Queen of
6 Heaven that Griego was going to Canada to study canon law?
7 A. No, sir.
Page 272
15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, why
16 don't we take a break at this point.
18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you don't mind, we're
19 trying to save the Archbishop's energy.
20 MR. GOFFE: The time is it 2:22, and we
21 will go off the record.
22 [A recess was taken.]
23 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:47. We are back
24 on the record.
25 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, did you ever,
Page 273
1 yourself, see Sabine Griego kissing or fondling a young
2 man?
3 A. No, sir, never.
4 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that you never
5 walked into the chancery office with Ms. K, the Texas
6 situation, you never walked in with her to the chancery of
7 the archidocese and found Griego kissing a boy?
8 A. No, sir, never.
9 Q. We were -- you were talking yesterday about the
10 circumstances under which it's permissible to
11 misrepresent, like to safe one's life. Is it permissible
12 to lie to protect the reputation of the Church?
13 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object, asked
14 and answered. We went through this yesterday.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. No, sir. Truth should be spoken.
17 Q. In your own mind, do you consider it possible or
18 not that you may have blocked some of the recollections
19 about the priests we have discussed today?
20 MR. KONRAD: Objection, calls for
21 speculation.
22 A. I don't know if that's possible. If there were
23 a shocking incident such as you've just related, I would
24 not forget that. Other incidents that happen in your
25 life, daily activities, you tend to forget. I am told
Page 274
1 that people are also able to block things out of their
2 minds that are distasteful. I don't know if I have ever
3 done that or not.
4 Q. Who told you that?
5 A. That is -- I wouldn't call it common knowledge,
6 but knowledge that a person can read about -- I've heard
7 that mentioned. I don't know of any specific individual
8 who has mentioned it to me, but over the years, that is
9 something that I have heard.
Page 283
1 A. And to do it discreetly, yes.
2 Q. Now, if I recall your testimony about Sabine
3 Griego correctly, when he was basically found out for
4 being a child molester in 1991, you did not put out
5 similar word to the parish at Queen of Heaven. And the
6 obvious question is, why not?
7 A. First of all, it didn't occur to me. And the
8 question is, then, why didn't it occur to me. And I think
9 that in my own mind that we were talking about an event,
10 an issue, that had occurred some 12 or 14 years before
11 that time. In other words, it was not a current issue.
12 But I did not request that that be done at Queen of
13 Heaven, as I had at parish.
14 Q. In approximately what year, if you recall, did
15 you begin putting the word out when you found out that
16 there was someone who had recently departed a parish
17 having molested children there?
18 A. Well, the actions that I took, if they were not
19 already public in nature, I did that again in a discreet
20 way with Father at . He may, as I
21 recall, be the only person that I instructed directly to
22 do that.
23 I believe that I also instructed Father Ted Hunt on
24 one occasion, probably at his own recommendation, to seek
25 out any other boys who may have been molested by Jason
Page 284
1 Sigler. Those are two that come to mind.
2 Q. After Father was excused from parish
3 service, did he continue to serve on the priest retirement
4 fund board?
5 A. Yes, he was a member of the priest retirement
6 fund board. It's a board that's independent of the
7 archidocese, as such. I understand their meetings are
8 held something like quarterly, I believe. But I
9 understand that he continued to serve on that board.
10 His position -- he had been revoked. His faculties
11 had been revoked. He was not able to celebrate a public
12 Eucharist or to celebrate the sacraments for people. We
13 revoked those faculties from him. But I am told that he
14 continued to attend the board meetings. How regularly, I
15 would not be able to say.
16 Q. What would be the reason for allowing a priest
17 who was known to you to be a sex offender to remain on the
18 priest retirement fund board?
19 A. I had given an instruction to the board that
20 Father was suspended. He had no faculties. And they -- I
21 expected them to take an action. The board is independent
22 of myself.
23 Q. So are you saying then -- well, you said you
24 expected them to take an action. What action did you
25 expect them to say?
Page 285
1 A. To vote to remove him from the board.
2 Q. And did they refuse to do that?
3 A. I don't think they did immediately. But I
4 believe that it took place eventually, but I don't believe
5 it took place immediately.
6 Q. What is your authority when you instruct the
7 board to take certain action, and they don't?
8 A. It was a recommendation. The board itself, the
9 association, is a separately incorporated one; and
10 therefore, it exists apart from my own authority. And my
11 recommendation to them was to inform them that this member
12 of the board had, in fact, been suspended from his
13 faculties, and the recommendation was that he should be
14 removed from the board.
15 I know that they discussed it, and I think they were
16 trying to get some canonical guidelines on what they
17 should do as far as following it, and some legal opinions
18 on it, so that their action would be in accord with both
19 public law, civil law, as well as with canon law.
20 Q. Did it concern you that the priest retirement
21 fund board allowed a known child molester to remain a
22 member of the board for a period of time?
23 A. That is why I let them know the situation. The
24 board is elected by the priests at large from the
25 archidocese. And either they felt that it was best to
Page 286
1 leave his name on until the next election, rather than to
2 remove it immediately. But in any event, I do not recall
3 action occurring immediately.
4 Q. I asked you yesterday about Vincent Lipinski, if
5 you had you ever heard allegations of sexual impropriety
6 against Father Vincent Lipinski before he was arrested,
7 and you said, "Before he was arrested, there was one
8 notice brought to me thirdhand, but no allegation." Could
9 you explain what you meant by that?
10 A. Yes, sir, let me shift my mind a moment. I am
11 able to recall receiving notice from a lady who had worked
12 with the Archidocese regarding policy for reporting,
13 bringing to our attention sexual misconduct. She has been
14 employed by the State on many occasions in this particular
15 area and works with State institutions. She called to
16 inform me that she had received a call from a parish
17 priest, informing her that he had received a call from
18 another lady who, in turn, had apparently spoken with
19 someone who was aware of an allegation that had been made
20 regarding Father Lipinski, that on some occasion -- and no
21 detail was given to me, just on some occasion, that he had
22 abused or attempted to abuse a teenager, apparently, is
23 what I gathered.
24 The information had come to me, as I say, thirdhand,
25 and no specific names were presented or specific times or
Page 287
1 specific places. In any event, I thanked her for that
2 information and proceeded, then, to invite Father Lipinski
3 to come to meet with me, that I might confront him with
4 the information that was presented to me.
5 I confronted him with this information, as best I
6 could from what I knew. He told me that he denied any
7 allegation. He said that they -- they had indicated that
8 apparently this event or abuse had occurred at the parish
9 of Our Lady of FatimA. I asked him -- he had been
10 stationed at Our Lady of FatimA. I asked him about his
11 own activity there. He proceeded to tell me what his main
12 concerns were. He denied this.
13 I called the pastor under whom he served and asked if
14 he knew of any suspicious times or moments when Father
15 Lipinski may have been associating with youth in any
16 fashion that would be considered suspicious. He said he
17 had absolutely no recollection of any event, that Father
18 had served well.
19 And so I cautioned Father Vincent Lipinski that we
20 would be open to any further call that we might receive
21 from anyone regarding this, because it had come in
22 thirdhand, and that he had to make certain that his life
23 was being lived properly before God, avoiding any
24 excessive time with the youth of his parish, because he
25 was now a pastor and would have youth organizations and
Page 288
1 other organizations for which he would be responsible.
2 I then called the lady back who had called me and
3 informed her of what had taken place and asked her, then,
4 to inform the people whose names were not provided to me,
5 and I heard no more from them.
6 Q. Do you recall the name of this lady?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. What agency did she work for?
9 A. Oh, the lady who had informed me?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes, her name is Stella Gallegos.
12 Q. And she was an employee of Human Services?
13 A. She had worked for Human Services in one of the
14 area branches, and then she became apparently
15 independently employed as an expert in child molestation
16 cases.
17 Q. As a counselor?
18 A. As a counselor, and has been hired throughout
19 the State to give seminars to teachers, to employees, to
20 various groups throughout the State. And the archidocese
21 had solicited her expertise when we were creating the
22 document on sexual abuse policy, because she was familiar
23 with that.
24 Q. You mentioned that the lady informed you that
25 she had received information about Lipinski through a
Page 289
1 priest?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. What priest had given her the information?
4 A. That was Father Rick Barela, who was, at that
5 time, the associate pastor, assistant pastor at Our Lady
6 of Fatima parish.
7 Q. Did you ever talk to Father Rick Barela about
8 the allegations that had been apparently made against
9 Father Lipinski?
10 A. I spoke with him, and he had -- he said he had
11 only served as a conduit. He did not know anything about
12 this. He had simply received the phone call to relay on
13 to us, and he felt the best person to contact was Stella
14 Gallegos since she had given or conducted seminars for our
15 priests regarding reporting.
16 Q. Did he say that he had learned this from the
17 victim, alleged victim, or family of the alleged victim?
18 A. No, he said just from another lay woman from
19 another parish, but I had no victim or family member.
20 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
21 screen, is 3:17 PM. This ends tape 4 in the deposition of
22 Archbishop Sanchez. We are off the record.
23 [A recess was taken.]
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:27. We are back
25 on the record with the beginning of tape number 5 in the
Page 290
1 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
2 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, do you recall
3 approximately the year in which these allegations
4 involving Father Lipinski were brought to your attention
5 by Stella?
6 A. I believe it was either 1988 or 1989. I think
7 it was that -- perhaps 1989.
8 Q. You stated that -- I believe you stated that you
9 talked to the current parish priest at Fatima and told him
10 to keep his ears open for any similar things?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Who was that?
13 A. That was Father -- you mean the priest who had
14 called?
15 Q. No.
16 A. The pastor?
17 Q. The one who was currently the pastor when you
18 received the situation.
19 A. The pastor was Father Clarence Galli, and I
20 believe he still is the pastor.
21 Q. And he never reported any other allegations to
22 you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. In other cases where there had been a denial,
25 you had appointed an investigating team. Did you appoint
Page 291
1 an investigating team with regard to Lipinski?
2 A. No, I did not, and I did not because I had not
3 received anything that I would call directly. This was
4 such a thirdhand type of statement, I was in hopes that
5 whoever had made the statement, that they would come forth
6 either with a letter, more directly or giving some
7 information, giving some dates, something of this nature.
8 This is what I was seeking.
9 Q. Did you ask Father Galli, as you had with Father
10 , to announce from the pulpit that you wished to
11 receive such information?
12 A. No, because, again, this had not come from
13 someone within that parish. This had come from someone
14 outside of that parish. Furthermore, I didn't know
15 whether this was simply a rumor, someone who was simply
16 trying to detract from Father Lipinski, or whether it was
17 serious. But getting back to them, by calling Ms.
18 Gallegos and asking her to relay that message. If they
19 wanted to contact me, I would be there.
20 Q. Was it your impression that Ms. Gallegos knew
21 who the alleged victim was?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Father Lipinski is and was at that time a
24 relatively young priest, I think, wasn't he?
25 A. Yes, I believe he had been ordained just about
Page 292
1 one year or two -- well, when this allegation occurred, he
2 had been ordained at least two years, probably three.
3 Q. As a young boy, do you know whether Father
4 Lipinski attended the parochial school at St. Therese?
5 A. I don't know where he went to school as a young
6 boy. I believe that his parish -- I believe his parish
7 was Our Lady of the Assumption parish in Albuquerque,
8 rather than St. Therese.
9 Q. Did you ask Father Lipinski, when you spoke to
10 him, whether he had ever been molested as a child?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. By the time you talked to Father Lipinski in
13 roughly 1989, had you received any complaints about a
14 Father ?
15 A. No. I believe that complaints about Father
16 , whom I do not know and did not know, came in
17 when Father Ron Wolf was chancellor, and we had initiated
18 a public number for everyone to call. I think that that's
19 when the allegation came in.
20 Q. Did you ever send out a letter to any priest or
21 priests asking them, in essence, to watch out for Father
22 Lipinski because of allegations of behavioral
23 improprieties?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And then is it correct that from the time of the
Page 293
1 1989 thirdhand complaint, you heard nothing more of a
2 similar nature until his arrest in October of '92?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. After he was arrested in October of '92, did you
5 call him in?
6 A. I did not call him in personally because he had
7 been arrested. I had the dean of the northwest deanery,
8 to which he belonged, to go and visit with him
9 immediately. And then we asked him to take up residence
10 with the Servants of the Paraclete, and he was removed
11 from that very moment from his parish, and I did not see
12 him then nor have I seen him to this day.
13 I had inquired from an attorney that he had,
14 apparently was going to represent him, and I don't recall
15 who the attorney was, whether it would be appropriate to
16 visit with him or not. My concern was that -- could that
17 time be used for him to go into therapy. That was my
18 concern. And the attorney felt that it was best for him
19 not to go into therapy until after whatever trial or
20 actions were going to take place would occur.
21 Q. Who was the dean of the northwest deanery who
22 visited with him?
23 A. His name is Father Johnny Lee Chavez.
24 Q. Did Father Chavez indicate to you whether Father
25 Lipinski admitted or denied the allegations?
Page 294
1 A. No, I don't believe he asked him about the
2 admission or denial. I was wondering how he was doing,
3 what had happened. The man was in jail, apparently, and
4 we were trying to get a place for him to stay. I wanted
5 him to be with the Servants of the Paraclete once he would
6 be released from the custody of the police.
7 Father Johnny did not confer with me about any
8 admission or denial of his alleged crime, or whatever we
9 want to call that.
10 Q. Were you still Archbishop when Father Lipinski's
11 case was resolved?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you order any sort of independent
14 investigation of his behavior, apart from the police
15 investigation, when he was arrested in Questa?
16 A. No. I did have two things take place. I felt
17 that we needed to make ourselves present to the people of
18 QuestA. So I asked Father Ron Wolf to go to Questa for
19 two separate weekends, and I would go on a third weekend
20 and make ourselves present to the community for anyone who
21 would want to come to speak to us, and we would celebrate
22 Mass for them on Sunday and in the missions and again make
23 ourselves available to anyone who would like to speak to
24 us.
25 Q. And did any other person claiming to be a
Page 295
1 Lipinski victim come forward?
2 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
3 Q. Once he was arrested for child molestation, did
4 you undertake any effort to notify the previous parishes
5 at which he had served?
6 A. No, sir, not while I was the Archbishop.
7 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is he without
8 faculties at this point?
9 A. Oh, yes, his faculties were suspended
10 immediately and have not been given back.
11 Q. I asked you yesterday about Father Clive Lynn,
12 and you stated that you had heard information about sexual
13 molestation by Clive Lynn. Can you tell me to the best of
14 your recollection when you first heard allegations that
15 Clive Lynn was a child molester?
16 A. Comments or communication -- and I don't recall
17 if they were written or phone calls -- were communicated
18 to us by another priest in the same community, but the
19 allegations took place in Raton, New Mexico.
20 We have two Catholic parishes in Raton, New Mexico.
21 Father Clive Lynn was pastor of one, St. Joseph's, and it
22 was from that parish that complaints were coming to me.
23 The initial complaints that I received from that
24 parish concerned, again, his personal attitude, being very
25 sharp with the parishioners, overly forceful, anger, what
Page 296
1 they felt was divisiveness within the parish, and then
2 subsequently as time went on, concern about Father
3 Lipinski being close only to a few boys --
4 Q. You mean Lynn, I'm sure.
5 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes, Father Lynn being
6 close to only a few boys and not to all of the altar boys.
7 I spoke with Father Lynn about the concerns of the
8 parishioners.
9 Q. About when was this?
10 A. I believe it must have been around 1982. Gosh,
11 '82, '83, '84. I'm not quite certain right offhand. My
12 memory is just a little confused with all these others.
13 In any event, when he was the pastor in that parish, that
14 is when these allegations occurred.
15 Having questioned him, he said that complaints were
16 coming in because he was trying to introduce a more
17 disciplined approach to the Catholic faith, and people
18 were complaining because of his strictness, and that
19 complaints about him and the altar boys were because of
20 jealousy of one group against others. And he was trying
21 to, again, teach the altar boys, and some of them were
22 complaining about him.
23 I asked a priest, who was raised in Raton and would
24 know some of the families there, to go and discreetly
25 inquire from families what they were hearing or what they
Page 297
1 knew about the situation, because there seemed to be a
2 denial, and yet there seemed to be divisiveness. There
3 was not such clear allegations for sexual misconduct as
4 there was strong voices about the parish being destroyed
5 by the way he was operating it.
6 But I did ask the priest who was born up there to go
7 there and to find out what he could. This priest was
8 Father Johnny Lee Chavez, the man that we have just
9 recently spoken about. He was born in Raton. He was able
10 to go there and to speak with the people. His report to
11 me was that he felt this man was, in fact, hurting the
12 people with his manners. He did not see anything directly
13 regarding child abuse, but told the people that if there
14 was any suspicion of this, they should report it to the
15 District Attorney.
16 Apparently, a report was made to the District
17 Attorney, and I understand that the District Attorney for
18 that area is in Taos County, and the District Attorney
19 then initiated an investigation of the situation and then
20 wrote to say that they were not going to press charges,
21 and I don't recall why, but I think it was because they
22 did not find sufficient information to do so. In any
23 event, they did not press charges.
24 I still felt very concerned about the parish and then
25 notified the pastor that he was going to be relieved of
Page 298
1 the parish in that spring, which was in June, and I was
2 asking him, then, to go to a center for therapy and go
3 through a full evaluation. I was concerned twofold: One
4 because there had been talk about possible sexual
5 misconduct, but also because of his conduct in
6 administering the parish that had indeed resulted in a
7 divisiveness among the community of his parish.
8 He went to such a center for therapy, and I'm trying
9 to recall where it was located. I believe it was in
10 Massachusetts. I can't recall the name of it immediately.
11 But he went through the evaluation, but returned home
12 saying that he felt disgusted with the procedures and
13 cared not to return there. I told him that I could not
14 give him faculties nor any other assignment until he went
15 through therapy.
16 He then chose not to receive any assignment. He
17 asked permission to go to Eastern New Mexico University to
18 take courses in counseling and then asked permission to
19 return to his home in Ireland to take care of his aging
20 parents. I told him that I could not give him faculties
21 if he was not going to go through any therapy before he
22 would leave. He chose to leave. He was suspended totally
23 from faculties of the archidocese. He has been gone since
24 that time and has never received faculties again.
25 Q. I believe you mentioned that it was first
Page 299
1 these -- some sort of allegations were first brought to
2 your attention by a priest?
3 A. No, I was saying I cannot recall whether the
4 allegations came to my attention either in writing or
5 through any phone calls or perhaps through the priest from
6 the other parish.
Page 300
2 Q. Do you recall getting any letters from any
3 parishioners complaining that Father Lynn had been
4 sexually molesting children in Raton?
5 A. I don't believe I had any letters regarding
6 sexual molestation. If you have any letters that you can
7 refresh my memory with, I would like to see them. But I
8 just can't recall at this moment that letters came in
9 regarding that, in particular.
10 Q. If you recall, I'd like to know a little bit
11 about his history. Was he originally ordained and
12 incardinated into this archidocese?
13 A. He was a native of Ireland and had attended
14 apparently a seminary in Ireland. I don't know where.
15 Had applied to my predecessor for consideration for
16 ordination for the Archidocese of Santa Fe. Apparently my
17 predecessor accepted his request, and eventually either
18 ordained him himself or he was ordained prior to his
19 coming. I don't know the particulars. And then he began
20 his ministry in the archidocese.
21 Q. Do you know whether he was ever a resident at
22 Servants of the Paraclete?
23 A. No, he was never a resident in the Servants of
24 the Paraclete.
25 Q. Do you recall what his parish assignments were?
Page 301
1 A. I think he began his priestly ministry with an
2 assignment first at Holy Ghost parish in Albuquerque as an
3 assistant. I think his second assignment was to St.
4 Therese parish in Albuquerque as an assistant. After
5 that, I believe the Archbishop did not give him an
6 assignment because he had been fighting with the pastors,
7 and so he was not given an assignment immediately. I
8 think he was taking classes at the university or something
9 of this nature. Then I believe he was assigned to Fort
10 Sumner and from Fort Sumner to MorA. I can remember that
11 because I was the one who made those assignments. And
12 from Mora to St. Joseph's in Raton.
13 Q. Do you recall whether there were ever any
14 allegations of sexual impropriety made against Father Lynn
15 while he was at St. Therese?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you recall whether there were ever any
18 allegations of sexual impropriety made against Father Lynn
19 while he was in Mora?
20 A. No. The allegations that came to me that
21 referred to possible sexual misconduct came to me from
22 Raton, when he was in Raton.
23 Q. In fact, hasn't the archidocese settled a
24 lawsuit involving his alleged sexual misconduct in Mora?
25 A. That is true. The archidocese has settled a
Page 302
1 lawsuit -- no, it wasn't a lawsuit.
2 Q. A claim?
3 A. A claim.
4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm going to object at
5 this point. It seems to me that the settlement of a claim
6 that is either unfiled or not a public record doesn't
7 indicate any knowledge whatsoever on the part of the
8 Archbishop and therefore is irrelevant.
9 Q. You can go ahead and answer.
10 MS. KENNEDY: Well, I'd also have a further
11 objection that I don't think that settlement matters are
12 an appropriate area to be going into and would object to
13 it that it's beyond the scope of proper discovery.
14 A. I don't know whether the settlement is
15 confidential.
16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Archbishop --
17 [The witness conferred with his attorney.]
18 A. I don't recall at this moment, Mr. Pasternack,
19 whether that settlement was confidential in nature or not.
20 I think that that information should be obtained before I
21 would make comment on it. I think that's probably what
22 should be done.
23 Q. Well, in fact, Archbishop, the attorney that you
24 dealt with in settling that case was Anthony Fontana of
25 Abbeyville, Louisiana, wasn't it?
Page 303
1 A. May I ask some guidance? I just want to make
2 certain that I am doing the right thing legally.
3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let's go off the record
4 for a moment.
5 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:51. We will go
6 off the record.
7 [A discussion was held off the record.]
8 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:52. We are back
9 on the record.
10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, what
11 we're going to do is we're going to make some contact with
12 the attorney for the the archidocese who conducted the
13 settlement negotiations and entered into the settlement
14 and determine what the confidentiality requirements are
15 and then make a decision whether or not we want to comply
16 with your questioning.
17 So if we could pass this for a moment, we'll do
18 our best to find that information out as quickly as we
19 can.
20 MR. PASTERNACK: All right. Well, maybe if
21 you could get that by tomorrow.
22 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) I just want to see if one
23 other question will jog your recollection, Archbishop, and
24 we can see if your counsel will let you answer it.
25 Isn't it a fact that you had direct negotiations with
Page 304
1 Mr. Fontana at which time he made it very clear to you
2 that he would not agree to confidentiality?
3 A. I cannot recall any terms of that agreement.
4 That's why I'd like to check. And if it's not
5 confidential, I'll be happy to share with you whatever I
6 can recall. If it is confidential, I feel obliged to
7 abide by those guidelines.
8 Q. After the settlement with Mr. Fontana, didn't
9 you, in fact, solicit advice from Mr. Fontana on how to
10 deal with allegations of sexual misconduct that arose in
11 the Santa Fe Archidocese?
12 THE WITNESS: Am I free to --
13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we -- let us
14 postpone that questioning, if you don't mind, Mr.
15 Pasternack, until we can clear up whether or not this is
16 confidential.
17 MR. PASTERNACK: That has nothing to do
18 with the settlement.
19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We don't know yet. We
20 don't have the settlement in front of us. If you have a
21 copy of the settlement agreement, then perhaps you can
22 share it with us, and we can short-circuit this inquiry.
23 If not, let's postpone the inquiry, and we'll get back to
24 you tomorrow.
25 A. I'd be happy to respond to that as soon as we
Page 305
1 have that information regarding the settlement.
2 Q. But for now, you decline?
3 A. I think it's best -- I have no idea what that's
4 part of -- I don't believe it's part of the settlement.
5 But I don't know whether I'm free just to talk about Mr.
6 Fontana or not.
7 Q. I'm not asking, for the moment, about the
8 settlement. I'm asking if you asked Mr. Fontana, apart
9 from the settlement, to give you guidance on how to avoid
10 allegations of sexual misconduct or how to handle them
11 when they occurred in the Santa Fe Archidocese.
12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, what
13 we're saying is while -- before we agree -- before he
14 answers any questions concerning his relationship with Mr.
15 Fontana or Mr. Fontana's client or the case in which Mr.
16 Fontana represented the Plaintiff, we'd like to have the
17 information concerning the settlement agreement. If that
18 clears us to answer those inquiries, we will oblige you as
19 soon as we can.
21 Q. Did you ever consider Mr. Fontana to be your
22 lawyer, Archbishop?
23 A. No.
24 Q. In fact, wasn't Father Lynn removed from Mora
25 and sent to Raton because he had been caught sexually
Page 306
1 molesting a child in Mora?
2 A. No, sir. There had not been any removal from
3 MorA. There was a transfer from Mora on to Raton. There
4 was problems in Mora, again, with his administrative
5 procedures. The people in that community were becoming
6 divided because of it, and I felt that it would be easier
7 for people in Raton to try to follow with him, because
8 it's more of a city, less of a rural village.
9 [Exhibit 8 was marked for identification.]
10 Q. Exhibit 8 is a letter dated November 7, 1984,
11 from , purporting to be from
12 , to you. I'd like you to look at that and see if
13 you've ever received that letter.
14 The question was if you recall receiving that?
15 A. Reading the letter now, I recall receiving this
16 letter.
17 Q. All right. And after that letter, do you recall
18 having a meeting that included and other
19 women from Raton in which they complained about the sexual
20 molestation of their children by Clive Lynn?
21 A. Do you recall where the meeting was held, just
22 to help stimulate my memory?
23 Q. According to Ms. , after that letter.
24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I think the question was
25 where the meeting was held.
Page 307
1 A. Where? Did she indicate where it was held? I'm
2 just trying to remember. It is possible that I may have
3 met with Mrs. and other women during the visit to
4 St. Patrick's parish in Raton. I recall that I had
5 invited whoever would like to meet with me, because of the
6 situation of divisiveness in the community, and I don't
7 know if it was only women or whether other men perhaps
8 were part of that meeting. But I do know I had invited
9 people to meet with me.
10 Q. Do you recall whether at that meeting you were
11 presented with allegations that Father Lynn had been
12 sexually molesting boys in Raton?
13 A. I do not recall that exactly, but it's very
14 possible that that allegation was also included in their
15 complaints, because they had many complaints.
16 Q. Do you recall ever communicating in writing with
17 Mrs. about her concern?
18 A. I may have acknowledged receipt of the letter,
19 which is my normal procedure. If I am not mistaken, I may
20 also have asked Father Johnny Lee Chavez to visit with
21 with Mrs. , if he knew her, when he went to Raton
22 for the visit with parishioners.
23 [Exhibit 9 was marked for identification.]
24 Q. Exhibit 9 is a letter to you from Mrs.
25 dated January 15, '86, and it refers to another letter
Page 308
1 from her that we don't have dated December 1, '85. I'm
2 sorry, I don't have that now. But let me see if you
3 recall writing this letter to .
4 MR. BARDACKE: Bruce, what was the date of
5 Exhibit 8?
6 MR. PASTERNACK: November 7, '84.
7 MR. KONRAD: Can we look at it? Thanks.
8 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) The question was, do you
9 recall writing that letter?
10 A. I have no recollection of it, but it is my
11 letter.
12 Q. Now, do you recall when you finally removed
13 Clive Lynn?
14 A. It was shortly after that letter.
15 Q. Now, her first expression of concern seems to
16 have been in '84.
17 A. In '84.
18 Q. Why did it take over a year to remove him?
19 A. I don't recall it taking all that long. I know
20 that Exhibit 8, you said, was --
21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Do we have Exhibit 8,
22 Mr. Pasternack? Thank you.
23 A. November '84, yes. I must assume that the date
24 on this letter is not meant to be November '85. I'm
25 assuring that it must be November '84. Your question was
Page 309
1 why it took so long for the man to be removed. The
2 initial indications about Father and his parish certainly
3 caused me great concern. And as you have indicated, I was
4 able to meet with parishioners -- I don't recall who all
5 was present -- to find out their concerns, in addition to
6 asking a priest to get information, so that we might act
7 responsibly, since there was a divided parish.
8 Why the time went on and removal from the parish did
9 not occur at that time, I don't have any particular
10 explanation. I --
11 Q. Yet in Exhibit 9, you ask of Mrs. who
12 J. Minos Simon of Lafayette, Louisiana, is that she had
13 referred to.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Did there come a time, that you recall, where J.
16 Minos Simon, an attorney, did in fact contact you or your
17 people about Clive Lynn?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did there come a time when an attorney named
20 Jack Hill from San Francisco contacted you about Clive
21 Lynn?
22 A. Not to my recollection.
23 Q. Now, you offered -- in Exhibit 9, you offered
24 Mrs. counseling for the children at the hands of
25 what you refer to as "at least three in the Archidocese
Page 310
1 who are well credentialed and quite experienced in the
2 area of guidance and counseling."
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Do you recall who you had in mind when you wrote
5 that?
6 A. Yes, I had in mind -- first person was one who
7 was also born in the Raton area and was known to these
8 folks, and that was Father Clarence Galli. Secondly, I
9 had in mind Father Ronald Bruckner, who at that time
10 was -- I don't recall exactly where he was stationed at
11 the time, but I believe he was stationed in Los Alamos,
12 New Mexico, at that time, who was also credentialed. And
13 there was a third person, a Father Brown, who was also
14 licensed for counseling in the state of New Mexico. Those
15 three were, to my knowledge, qualified to be able to at
16 least initiate dialogue with the family and with the
17 children. I felt that with a priest present to the
18 families, they would feel that they could speak openly and
19 would give them the type of assurance that a family would
20 need. If, in fact, the -- any child who may have been
21 abused in any way needed further assistance, they would be
22 able to help recommend or guide them to such a person.
23 Q. Did it occur to you that a child who had been
24 sexually molested by a priest might not be enthusiastic
25 about receiving psychological counseling from a priest?
Page 311
1 A. That was possible. That's why I made the offer
2 to the ladies to see if -- to Mrs. if that would
3 be appropriate. If she had replied that she would prefer
4 not to have any priest, but rather to have someone else,
5 that certainly would have been provided.
6 Q. You state in Exhibit 9, "While one can cite
7 examples of accusations of wrong-doing on the part of
8 clergy in all of the various religious denominations,
9 those accusations should not detract from the essential
10 religious messages of peace, love, courage and forgiveness
11 among men which are communicated by most religious
12 denominations."
13 By those words, were you, in essence, suggesting to
14 Mrs. that she forgive Father Lynn for what he
15 did?
16 A. No. You failed to read the final paragraph in
17 the preceding page in which she said that she had been
18 shaken with this, and I was trying to reassure her that to
19 try to have strength, moral strength, within herself, not
20 to be shaken regarding the clergy that's here to serve the
21 people, because of the actions of one that she was
22 concerned about. So I wrote that paragraph.
23 Q. After you were convinced that Father Lynn had
24 sexually molested boys in Raton, did you make any efforts
25 to communicate with the people in the prior parishes where
Page 312
1 he had served, either Mora or St. Therese, to find out
2 whether any boys had been molested by him there?
3 A. No, sir, I did not.
4 Q. And did you not feel the responsibility as
5 Archbishop to make such an inquiry and thereby help these
6 children, if they existed?
7 A. Making an inquiry of that nature simply did not
8 occur to me.
9 Q. Would that have been calumny?
10 A. No, I'm not thinking of that. It just did not
11 occur to me to go back to other parishes and make similar
12 inquiries. It had not been our practice, and so it simply
13 did not come to my mind.
14 Q. If Father Lynn sexually molested boys in Raton,
15 did you have a suspicion that he likely had sexually
16 molested boys elsewhere?
17 A. If I had had a specific allegation of
18 molestation in Raton and he was found guilty of that, I
19 may have had that. My action with Father Lynn was taken
20 from suspicions, the allegations, the talk of people
21 without any individual coming forth to be named.
22 In any event, I did not feel it my -- I don't say I
23 don't feel it my obligation. I did not become aware, in
24 my own mind, or think about going to another parish to
25 inquire whether or not his presence in their parish had
Page 313
1 resulted in any type of molestations of youth.
2 Q. You were, were you not, a counselor at St. Pius?
3 A. I was an academic counselor at St. Pius.
4 Q. Did you have any training in psychology
5 whatsoever in your educational background?
6 A. They did not include psychology for academic
7 counseling.
8 Q. Have you ever had that type of training?
9 A. There was a course in my training as a
10 seminarian for the priesthood which was considered to be
11 the philosophy of psychology, but it was not for clinical
12 purposes or evaluation purposes.
13 Q. So was it not within your contemplation in,
14 let's say, 1986, when you removed Lynn, that people who
15 molest children tend to have molested children before?
16 A. It did not occur to me. It did not occur to me.
17 Q. I'd asked you yesterday if you had received any
18 allegations regarding Father Charlie Martinez, and you
19 indicated that you hadn't. I'm wondering if you knew
20 Father Charlie Martinez. He was a Franciscan born in
21 Canjilon and did a lot of work in that area as a priest.
22 A. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I
23 knew Father Charlie Martinez. In fact, I knew him as a
24 pastor of St. Patrick's, I believe, in ChamA. During his
25 tenure as pastor, I had occasion to visit the parish on
Page 314
1 various occasions, to meet with the women religious who
2 worked with him in education and to meet with all of the
3 parishioners because of the Mass celebrations and other
4 festivities. But no allegation was ever brought to my
5 attention.
6 Q. In any form at any time?
7 A. No. In fact, they had glowing reports for his
8 work with the people there.
9 Q. As a Franciscan working within the geographical
10 boundaries of the archidocese, would he have had to have
11 been granted faculties by you in order to serve?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you recall whether you made any
14 investigation or inquiry of him before granting those
15 faculties?
16 A. He was recommended to me by his own superior, as
17 are all of the Franciscans or religious are recommended to
18 me for faculties and for appointment to a specific place.
19 Once that recommendation comes to me from their superior,
20 I trust that they have cleared this man in his formation,
21 in his experience for the position they recommend him.
22 If, for some reason, I personally disagree because I feel
23 that perhaps he's just ordained and would not do well in a
24 certain parish, then I can voice my opinion to the
25 superiors. But by and large, I go by the recommendation
Page 315
1 of their superiors.
2 Q. And would that mean that the general rule is you
3 do not interview the applicant but rather just rely on
4 whatever letters or verbal instructions you receive?
5 A. In dealing with religious communities, that is
6 the procedure.
7 Q. And when you grant faculties to a Franciscan, is
8 that commemorated by a written document?
9 A. It is included in his letter of appointment to
10 that parish. If I appoint him as pastor of a parish, he
11 automatically receives the faculties of the Archdiocese to
12 serve in that parish.
13 Q. So even though Father Charlie Martinez was a
14 Franciscan, his parish appointment, as well as his
15 faculties, would have to emanate from the Archbishop?
16 A. Yes, at the recommendation of his own superior.
17 Q. And during the time that you were Archbishop,
18 would it be correct to say that, as a general rule, even
19 though you were making these appointments and granting
20 these faculties, you took the word of the superior without
21 conducting any sort of independent review?
22 A. Yes, because I did not know their background
23 personally. Their education was done separately from our
24 Archdiocese. Oftentimes they had served in other parishes
25 that were unknown to me. So I had to depend upon their
Page 316
1 superiors.
2 Q. I asked you yesterday were there any allegations
3 of sexual impropriety brought up during your tenure as
4 Archbishop against Father , and your answer
5 was, "One"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I did not go into it yesterday,
8 A. Right.
9 Q. But I'd like to ask you about it today.
20 Father mentioned to me that in the course of
21 his ministry to the people, that a lady had approached him
22 and said that her adult son, who was married, was going
23 through some traumatic experiences because his wife was
24 threatening to leave him. And in the course of this, he
25 shared, then, with his mother an incident that occurred
Page 317
1 when he was younger, saying that he had been abused by
2 Father . Father said he wanted to
3 relay that information to me.
4 I instructed Father , then, to meet with the
5 gentleman about whom the woman had spoken, to meet with
6 the family, to receive the particulars and --
Page 318
10 He remained with them approximately six months and
11 then came to me and said that he had satisfied his
12 curiosity, that he believed now that he really should
13 remain with the Diocesan priesthood. I told him I did not
14 have a parish opening at the time, but I would ask him to
15 take the directorship of Bethany House for me, since it
16 needed repairs and someone to manage it. And he agreed to
17 do that and, in fact, did that for, I suppose, close to a
18 year.
19 And it was during that time that this allegation came
20 in. And I informed him of it. He admitted the
21 molestation of the boy. I told him that I could not allow
22 him to have the faculties, then, of the Archdiocese until
23 this treatment of the family and all had settled, and then
24 we would talk about his future.
25 The request of the family in was assistance
Page 319
1 from the Archdiocese for this man to go through therapy
2 from the therapist of his choice, and he had one that he
3 had chosen in the area, and that was granted
4 immediately. And he did begin to take therapy there, and
5 the family was very grateful for this. The pastor was
6 going to try to help mend the family, since the wife was
7 threatening to leave, and they were going to try to have a
8 reconciliation.
9 No general announcement was made to the parish about
10 the abuse of this man. The family wanted to keep it quite
11 confidential because the person was already suffering
12 emotionally from the separation from his wife. And he
13 continued to go through therapy, and I was assured by the
14 pastor that they were cared for. And that was about it.
Page 320
11 Q. And apart from the family wishing to keep it
12 quiet and protect the name of the boy who was molested,
13 did you ever seek permission to advise the community that
14 Father had admitted molesting some boy and ask the
15 community if there were other victims there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you approach any of the other parishes of
18 which Father had been assigned to ask if he had
19 molested anyone there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you report Father admitted
22 molestation to any civil authorities?
23 A. No, I did not.
Page 322
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Bruce, yesterday we went
23 a little long. I was concerned that -- I think the
24 Archbishop's concentration flags when he gets tired. I
25 would suggest that we recess for the evening and begin
Page 323
1 again tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock. He's tired. It's a been
2 a fairly long day for him. And I think we might do better
3 if he's had the advantage of an evening's rest before we
4 resume.
5 MR. PASTERNACK: I understand, and I don't
6 want to be discourteous. I want to point out that
7 yesterday we were delayed in beginning until about 11:00
8 o'clock because of the parade, and we've apparently only
9 been allocated a certain amount of time to conduct this
10 deposition. If we conclude early, that may require the
11 deposition to extend an extra day.
12 And I'm prepared to continue, but I want to
13 accommodate your needs with the understanding that that
14 may make the deposition go longer.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't like depositions
16 that drag on and on and on. I will do my best. We have
17 another half hour, and I will go at it for another half
18 hour and try to respond as best I can.
19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let me suggest to you,
20 Mr. Pasternack, that we probably have about nine hours of
21 solid testimony at this point in the space of two days.
22 And when we began late yesterday, I suggested that we
23 might want to continue beyond 5:00 o'clock yesterday.
24 That request, that suggestion, didn't seem to gain popular
25 approval, at least from yourself.
Page 324
1 We'll go, if you like, for another half hour if,
2 Archbishop, if you feel you can do it. If your attention
3 flags, we can hold. I'm happy to discontinue now and
4 begin again tomorrow, or we can begin again earlier
5 tomorrow than 9:00 o'clock. But we've not done badly.
6 We've got about nine hours in two days, and that's with
7 breaks. That's just testimony.
8 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Yesterday, I asked you
9 about allegations involving Father ,
10 and I believe you indicated affirmatively that there had
11 been some. Please tell me about those.
12 A. Father is a priest of the
13 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. He came to us from the Diocese
14 of Amarillo, at their own recommendation. He was ordained
15 for this Archdiocese, although he was studying and
16 preparing for the priesthood in that diocese.
17 I believe that there were allegations against Father
18 for sexual misconduct --
19 Q. Are you too tired to continue, Archbishop?
20 A. I'm trying to remember one event, and I'm just
21 going to ask if you could help me with any documentation
22 you have, just to click that on, and I'd be happy to go
23 with it. But I'm not focusing in on dates or the event.
24 Q. Well, I don't know what you were referring to
25 yesterday, and so I want to see what you recall.
Page 325
1 A. Okay. The recollection that's in my mind at
2 this time is that Father was serving as a
3 chaplain at
4 Q.
5 A. NM -- yes. And apparently during one of the
6 semester breaks or holidays, he was invited by one of the
7 to share dinner at their home. I believe it was in
8 Denver, Colorado. And he did, in fact, go with the
9 there, and apparently he spent the night with the family.
10 And that night he apparently entered the room of the
11 or the young man, and no assault took place, but
12 apparently there was overtures to that. He felt
13 embarrassed about it and spoke to the mother the next
14 morning.
15 As far as I understand and can recall at this moment,
16 there was no sexual activity between them at all, but he
17 had entered the room and had attempted this.
18 In any event, this report was given to the mother.
19 She, in turn, called the local bishop who, in turn,
20 informed me, . I then
21 had spoke to Father about it, but I had to inform the
22 Bishop of Las Cruces,
25 He was then removed from his position, and I sent him
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1 to Jemez Springs for treatment. I can't recall the year
2 right offhand.
3 Q. Do you recall approximately when that would have
4 been?
5 A. Probably around, what, '84, '85, perhaps that
6 timetable.
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3 Q. Would he then have been considered an extern
4 priest in Las Cruces?
5 A. Yes, he would have been considered a
6 non-incardinated priest serving in their Diocese.
7 Q. Was he still formally a priest of the Santa Fe
8 Archdiocese?
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. Now, had you ever received any allegations that
11 he had molested boys at ?
12 A. No, I received no allegations of that nature.
13 Q. When you received the allegation at -- and
14 by the way, I assume this was a boy of high school age?
15 A. No, this was college age.
16 Q. Okay. Did you call Father
17 in to talk to him about the allegation?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did he admit it or deny it?
20 A. Yes, he did, he admitted.
21 Q. And do you recall how long he was at Servants of
22 the Paraclete?
23 A. He was there for their full program, which would
24 probably be between six months and possibly a year.
25 Q. After he was released from Servants of the
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1 Paraclete, did you have occasion to put him back into
2 parish work?
3 A. We placed him, if I'm not mistaken -- gosh, I
4 can't recall the series, but I know that he served for a
5 while at , the , and he served there
6 until a priest who was familiar with the people from
7 informed me that some of the people were saying he
8 was too close to the children. I asked him to inquire if
9 there was any allegations of sexual impropriety, and he
10 said he had already done that, that there was no
11 molestation, but they didn't like his actions.
12 And so the from that felt
13 that his approach, apparently, to the children, as well as
14 to the people was unacceptable. But there was no
15 incidents.
16 Q. Who was that priest?
17 A. I believe the priest was Father .
18 Q. Did you remove him from because of those
19 complaints?
20 A. Immediately.
21 Q. And then what did you do with him?
22 A. I gave him no assignment for a while because of
23 that, and I notified the staff of the Servants of the
24 Paraclete. They asked him to be in contact with the
25 therapist that they had recommended, and they continued
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1 their contact with him and therapy.
2 Q. Do you know who the therapist was?
3 A. I think it was a Dr. .
4 Q. And then did you come to give him a parish
5 assignment?
6 A. No, he was not given a parish assignment. He
7 was helping at as an out-chaplain -- as
8 an assistant chaplain, and he was in residence at
9 parish in Albuquerque.
10 Q. Did there come a time when he was also in
11 residence at parish in Albuquerque?
12 A. I can't recall. If you have that curriculum
13 vitae or any other information, please help me out.
14 Q. Did there come a time when you assigned him to
15 work at ?
16 A. Yes, I think he was an associate at .
17 Again, I don't recall the sequence of those assignments.
18 I wish I could offer you more accurate information. My
19 memory says that he did serve at . I don't know
20 for what length of time.
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3 Q. Were there any allegations, that you recall,
4 about Father sexually molesting
5 children at parish?
6 A. There is something in the back of my mind. I
7 can't recall it, Mr. Pasternack. But I believe that there
8 was some form of allegation there, but I'm not certain
9 about that. I wish I could see any documentation on that.
10 I just -- I believe there was some allegation, but I can't
11 recall any details at this time.
12 Q. Did you ever come to learn whether Father
13 had sexually molested, while at
14 , a boy named ,
16 A. No, no allegation like that had been brought to
17 my attention.
18 Q. A boy named , the son of , a
19 deacon and a person who has done legal services for the
20 Archdiocese of Santa Fe?
21 A. No. I know , and he never
22 mentioned a thing to me.
23 Q. ?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. ?
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1 A. I know the name, but I don't associate
2 that again with Father.
3 Q. How was it, Archbishop, that he would be accused
4 of molesting someone at , and then you think perhaps
5 accused of molesting someone at and goes to
6 Paraclete and back, but he is continued to allowed to
7 serve; in fact, to this day is a priest of the
8 Archdiocese?
9 A. He's a priest. He's serving at
10 . We placed him in the Servants of the Paraclete
11 and for his rehabilitation or correction, whatever type of
12 therapy was necessary for him. He completed their
13 program. In fact, as I mentioned, was sent back for a
14 second program, continued to be monitored by his therapist
15 or his psychiatrist. And I felt that as long as he had
16 this monitoring and the training or the therapeutic help
17 that he needed, that he could serve well. But there had
18 to be a limit to that, as well.
19 Q. Do you feel that you were given any assurances
20 by Servants of the Paraclete that his sexual behavior
21 would not repeat itself?
22 A. Not by the Servants of the Paraclete. In fact,
23 there were occasions when the Servants of the Paraclete
24 were very severe with him. I can recall one occasion
25 where they mentioned to me, copied me with a letter to
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1 him, that he had not seen his therapist for two or three
2 months, and they reminded him that this was a severe
3 infraction of their guideline and that he had to see him
4 immediately.
5 I can recall I conducted a meeting in my office with
6 him and with the therapist regarding that. And at that
7 time, he told the therapist that he had not felt
8 comfortable with him.
9 And the therapist said, "Fine, then we'll have
10 another therapist for you. But you have to continue to
11 see him regularly." And at that time, Dr. became
12 his therapist.
13 Q. Who was the therapist before ?
14 A. I believe it was Dr. or -- yes,
15 , I believe it was.
16 Q. Who selected the therapist for ,
17 Paraclete or the Archdiocese?
18 A. Well, I don't know therapists, and so I could
19 not select one. I never knew of Dr. . I would
20 depend upon the recommendation of a professional
21 therapist, and apparently the name Dr. -- some of the
22 therapists, like Dr. -- I think is his correct
23 name. I may be off a bit. But he had been working with
24 the Servants of the Paraclete for a number of years, and I
25 believe it was he who must have recommended Dr. .
Page 333
1 Q. Do you mean ?
2 A. , I'm sorry. I was close. That's what
3 happens at the end of a day. Dr. was the
4 psychiatrist in question.
5 Q. Do you recall ever getting any assurances from
6 either or that was fit to resume
7 parochial duties?
8 A. Not from Dr. . Dr. was very
9 tough, very strict, demanded a lot of Father ,
10 which was good.
11 I can recall one assurance from Dr. that he
12 felt that after one -- an incident that occurred, although
13 there was no sexual molestation, the situation appeared
14 bad.
15 It was a situation that transpired when Father
16 was chaplain at the
17 Hospital, but it's the psychiatric areA. And he was
18 caring for that unit. He wanted to make a trip back to
19 his relatives back in northeastern part of the country,
20 and in fact invited one of the security guards whom he had
21 known to accompany him, and they drove back there.
22 As I understand it from the testimony given to us,
23 Father apparently made some overtures toward him, in word.
24 And the young officer or the young man told him that he
25 was leaving the room, and in fact, went down and called
Page 334
1 his folks, that he was going to terminate the trip with
2 him because of this, and did, in fact, leave. So that
3 nothing occurred.
4 After they returned, then he explained what had
5 happened. Father admitted the action or impropriety, and
6 he was again then confronted with his therapist and had to
7 go into care under Dr. .
8 At the conclusion of that, Dr. mentioned
9 that he felt that this was not a serious infraction of his
10 therapeutic recovery and could serve in a chaplaincy
11 capacity.
12 Q. With the recurrence of the episodes with Father
13 , was it not within your prerogative
14 as Archbishop to simply remove his faculties and say
15 goodbye?
16 A. Yes, and this was the threat that was made to
17 him, if you want to call it a threat, that if there were
18 any instances of any type of allegations against him
19 anymore, that he would cease to serve as a priest, and I
20 would take processes towards removing him from the
21 priesthood totally.
22 Q. Did you ever ask him if he had had any other
23 victims?
24 A. No, I did not.
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